@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

I think I was a decent bench tech and I can guarantee that bench doesn't teach you that. Because bench never sees systems running, they really don't know how things relate to each other. They see what works and fails, but not work works well or poorly. Bench rarely would be exposed to enough of the full stack to have any useful insight there.

Well they should lol, anytime I have a chance I run bench marks on hd to make sure it is performing correctly on our important machines. Then i keep the data , organized well of course, so i can compare with another user at a moments notice.

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

This is where we keep disconnecting. Knowing bench does NOT mean knowing how the technology works. How it works is IT. The problem with the people in your example is that they don't know IT. Bench has nothing to do with the situation. This is a basic IT failing.

I can understand that then. I assumed they would know how it works better than they do with the money they make.

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

What they don't do is make decisions about the technology infrastructure. They work with it physically, but not logically. It's a very clear separation.

Ok so you are saying that IT is a purely logical role( or mostly) and that bench is physical?

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

Bench doesn't buy tech, bench works on tech in a business. They work on tech purchased by IT. If you stick to the definitions that I gave, it really does keep this clear. Bench doesn't make business decisions. If you feel that bench is doing that, check again, it's always IT making the decision (or no one making a decision and it is all just random... which is pretty reckless.)

Alright for the sake of not going down a rabbit hole we will never emerge from I guess i can use your definition:)

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

They are so wildly different, it's hard to believe anyone working in either does that. There really is extremely little overlap. In the enterprise space, they are not just totally separate disciplines, but have legal ramifications and in the financial space have full separation of duty concerns. IT isn't allowed into data centers, bench isn't allowed access to IT systems. They are extremely discrete.

They certainly do which is where my own biases come from. They come from management themselves who believe this. However, this has all been small businesses where an IT person does anything connected with the systems

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

It would not. Use your example as a guide. Like I keep saying, no amount of bench knowledge would have changed anything in the situation. They'd still be just as clueless, still not know what they need, still make the same decisions. Bench knowledge would not help.

Ahh I see we still have a disconnect here in our thinking of bench and IT. I am thinking of it from a little higher level than you are. Your definition of bench includes people with no knowledge of how the overall system works while I was including that.

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

The issue is a lack of IT knowledge and a lack of IT processes to look it up when needed. The issue you mention is an IT one, I'm unclear how you are connecting it to bench. Why would a bench tech have any of that knowledge or know how to apply it?

Even when they look it up they do not fully understand because they have never been hands on with the tech. A good bench tech would know how the tech works and who best it applies to.

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

In the enterprise space, you have facilities people who put computers on desks and plug them in. Because even that stuff is not bench. In the same way that the bench shops doing maintenance are not IT. It's all clearly separate.
In small shops, IT does lots of other jobs because they lack the staff to do it and someone has to do it and since IT waits on it, IT does the work, it just makes sense. But that's in no way the same as it being an IT job.
Far removed example: you use the company restroom and it is running low on toilet paper. So you restock the toilet paper since you are there and notice that it is low. That doesn't make stocking toilet paper an IT function, even though IT did it.

LOL ok good example. I understand what your saying here and it does make sense. I was just saying that many other people, supposedly IT management for many years say that bench work and above is IT. It was what I was told by management before I got to current job.

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

How would knowing tech fix the decision process? They already know that they need to do proper research before making a decision and don't do it. So more knowledge would be useless if the process is flawed. And the issue you mention, is purely one of process.

Okay I can give some examples, simple as they are. A VP from another department asks for a super powerful laptop and is given the same model as our users except with an i7 processor. The memory (4gb) and 7200 rpm hard drive stay the same. I hear this person on the phone explaining that the upgrade of processor from an early version i7 to the 6700 or so version is their best use of money for the laptop.

I hear same person asking what a cache is and do they ever need it.

Another member of management does not think that a better video card will help process large photoshop images faster in the marketing department.

Another member of management thinks we should give pc's with hardware raided 7200 rpm drives(2 of them) to our council because that will be best use of money. Same situation as before but I think they both have it wrong.

Anyway my point to this is if they knew bench work that would also mean they understood how the technology worked on a basic level. I understand knowing how to grease a cpu is not helpful specifically but a well rounded bench person would not make these same mistakes. All these people look things up but do not understand what they are seeing I guess.

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

Well the video goes into it, but they are fundamentally different disciplines. One is a business discipline, IT delivers business solutions and only exists in the context of a business. Without business, there is no IT. IT is not about tech, but generally uses tech to provide business infrastructure.
Bench is pure tech, no business. It delivers technology as its deliverable and can function (and does) with no business at all.

Okay I see what you are saying. I will just have to use your definition of IT and bench work I guess. The problem I can see is almost everyone sees these two disciplines are one and the same.

While it might seem bench is pure tech you can not buy it without money which is business and it is always for a business reason such as to make money by using it. That is still business and therefore some form of IT

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

Having bench knowledge does nothing for IT decision making. No amount of bench work or experience would fix the issues of not being up to date on IT info, not knowing how to look it up or when to look it up or how to capacity plan for the users' needs

While I agree that bench work is not a substitute for keeping up with IT info i do disagree that bench knowledge does nothing for IT decision making. This knowledge of how a system works I believe is key in buying the best systems for your users while not spending more money than you have to. Good decision making and bench knowledge gets the best results. Both have to be learned. If anyone never does bench work and only looks stuff up then they are making bad decisions in my opinion.

@scottalanmiller You are right when you say the basic technology has not changed much from one decade to another. i guess to be more clear I mean that having good bench works or management who could do it well is fundamental to making good business decisions for newer equipment. I understand that anyone can look up what i needed to make a good decision but unless your knowledge is within the last 5 years or so then you have no idea what the stuff means anymore. Now you may be different and could be more hands on but ti did not sound like it the way you answered other questions. If I am wrong then forgive me i do apologize. I just think good decisions come from good fundamental knowledge. From your definition I don't really do bench work either but if certain members of my management did then they would not make the decisions they do for our users. I hope that makes more sense.

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

To me, DELPOYING hard drives is bench work. Deciding which machines to buy is IT. Imaging them and managing the systems is IT. Keeping the hardware clean is bench.

I guess I should point out that you are the first person I have ever talked with that does not consider these things IT. To my friends who admins of some type, 1 director, and 1 vp from other places....if it affects IT directly , like bench work, then it is IT. So everyone is not on the same page as far as terms go I believe.

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

Having more technical knowledge does not improve business decision processes, that's a totally different thing.

I am confused about what thing this is then because if the people who made the decisions had more technical knowledge then they would not make the decisions they do. Business decisions in IT need this technical knowledge to make good decisions for the business.

@scottalanmiller Ok sorry for the delay. Why do you not consider bench work as IT?

@scottalanmiller I get what your trying to say but at the same time I think your so far removed from this type of thing that you are not considering everything. I disagree that some of that physical stuff you mentioned is not IT. The reason being is that both level of my IT management are not very good at that and make poor business decisions in buying equipment because they also are so far removed from anything hands on they don't know how it works anymore. It may be fundamental yes but when its knowledge is critical for making IT decisions with vendors I think you also have to consider that IT too. For example, we continually spend massive amounts of money(at least for us) on keeping the latest and greatest processors in machines in our heavy users laptops and computers. They will not even consider using an SSD even though it is cheaper and users store everything on a netweork share anyway. If the SSd failed it is 25 min or less to reload their image and 5 min to walk there and map their network share again. Thats how I am told to do it. SSd would be a great speed increase over our 5400 and 7200 drives we have used for the past several years.

@nerdydad I am in Waco as well so will report anything of significance that might help others be safe.

@scottalanmiller I would agree with it being on par. I know data structures is taken early however I was just giving examples of classes I could remember.

@scottalanmiller I never said it was not challenging, you just have to be dedicated. I just felt that computational physics, astrophysics, plasmas, and solid state physics were harder for me. I dont feel that cs at the undergraduate level is above the higher level math and physics

@scottalanmiller You dont think Baylor's cs program was real cs? We did problem solving with c++, algorithm analysis, data structures, assembler x86, operating system design, 3 levels of calculus, linear algebra, advanced calculus, ordinary differential equations, and partial differential equations. I did physics as second major but those dont really contribute to this discussion.