@scottalanmiller I agree that their skills are different from one another. There is no doubt of that. Maybe my IT people are bad but they also seem pretty common from what I have seen. Does that mean that most IT people are bad? Seems like a far stretch but who knows. I certainly wouldn't want to say that. I guess one of the main issues I have with that is the decision making progress. You mentioned before that IT people are able to look things up and make correct decisions because has not really changed in a few decades. If they never learned about tech in the first place then it does not matter as they doi not have any foundation to make good decisions correct?

@scottalanmiller I understand that point but at the same time IT needs bench just as much as bench needs IT(going by your definition of IT). A lot of the people you call IT don't have the skill to do bench work. So they make decisions on what to buy for users but don't know why it may be good or bad. Often it is bad. So then all those scanners, printers, and other devices they can't actually deploy without their bench people.

So after thinking about this further I just don't think you should separate the different roles the way you are. IT and bench people both depend on the other. This mostly explains why bench people are so opinionated about management in a bad way as IT orders stuff so often that just does not make sense on a technical level. They are two sides of the same coin. I do not think differentiating between IT and bench is even helpful. That just creates a divide between the two groups that does not need to be there.

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

This video is a perfect example of what would happen if bench people got to make decisions. This is a disaster of stupidity. It's interesting that they did it, I guess. But the whole thing is SO dumb. Every stupid technology is thrown together with no logical use case. I get that they do this just because it makes them money to make stupid videos, I don't fault them for doing what pays the bills. But this is SO bench without IT. Just technology for its own sake, no viable use cases.

Youtube Video

Ok yeah that was weird. If it works for them then fine. So tech without any business purpose I suppose is what you mean.

@dominica said in A Sunflower Blooms:

Thanks, fixed now. That's what you get for letting your husband get involved, no proof reading. But most of you are used to that by now from him.

haha yep

@dominica said in What Are You Doing Right Now:

A little house cleaning, actually. When better than at one in the morning

Lol lets just say I'm lucky to be conscious right now. I am usually asleep much earlier

Looks to be an (a) left out on main page.After [A Sunflower Blooms]...

A Sunflower Blooms is web design firm specializing in clean, modern design to help businesses not just grow, but thrive, and bloom. Based in North Texas we help you navigate both the design and the technical portions necessary to make your web project a success.

@scottalanmiller Everyone is asleep but me. Boys are 6 and 2. Usually asleep by this time too

So far just like but steady rain all day in Waco. Haven't heard of any flooding nearby either.

Watching my 2 year old sleep next to me. I have an extra computer chair in here and he likes to come in and sit in chair while watching nursery rhyme cartoons on netflix while I type away. Then he falls asleep on pillow I put in chair with him and I cover him up. Some day he is going to be too big for that and that will suck

@scottalanmiller said in What Are You Doing Right Now:

I just fried up some black bean chipotle burgers. Hot rapeseed oil and 12 minutes on the range and we are good. Real german butter cheese on it, too.

Well it sounds great but I would have a terrible time sleeping anytime soon lol

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

Recently on SW I was speaking with someone about how the A+ had no utility in IT work and that it was for bench. They kept saying how they took it and found it totally applicable and directly useful for all of their work. Of course, after probing, it turned out that they'd never done nor seen an IT job and worked 100% in bench doing nothing but physical desktop repairs. Literally a pure bench job, like you'd have at the corner computer shop in 1998. Not even close to IT.

If you fixed the one little piece of "how I define bench" instantly all the rest fit neatly into place and he was a perfect example of everything that I had said.

Yeah to have a proper argument we have to be on the same page lol. Otherwise its like talking to my wife..."I have no idea what your saying honey and don't even know how to respond to that."

@scottalanmiller said in What Are You Doing Right Now:

I had a big breakfast, but still.

You do need to eat something but make it light. Don't want heartburn! Cereal often works for me when that happens

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

@jmoore said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

Another example that I like to use is an analogy from The Bard's Tale (Electronics Arts, 1986.) IT is like the magician, Bench is like the conjurer.

If that doesn't instantly make sense, go play Bard's Tale and get back to me when you've defeat the boss of the fourth dungeon

Lol best example yet. I remember that from too long ago.

I actually use that all the time, but inside IT. I think that The Bard's Tale coloured my perception of the world.

I think of Systems as Magician, and Networking as Conjurer. If you do enough with both, then you are eligible for Sorceror, which is like an Architect. Get high enough in all of them and you can switch to Archmage (CIO).

I like this example a lot. Makes more sense oddly enough

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

@jmoore said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

Yes that does make more sense. For it to make sense I just have to forget previous definitions. What i was originally taught was that bench work was the lowest level of IT and the higher up you go the more of everything that you knew. Good management knew how to do absolutely everything adequately.

Right, and that's part of the reason that I work at this so much and speak at conferences and stuff about it. If you really break it down, it's pretty clear that bench jobs, knowledge and work isn't part of IT and can't be. But if you don't have the right definition to work with, you end up looking at bench as something with overlap and then you can't break it out. But with the "right" definition, pretty quickly it becomes clear that it's a different career path with essentially no IT relationship.

Likewise, I work to help the helpdesk and deskside support roles fight for their independence. They are IT, for sure, but are their own pillars or disciplines within IT rather than being "low lever" admins or whatever people think that they are. They have their own ladders, managers, departments, skills sets, certs, etc. You can be a six figure non-manager helpdesk tech and still have zero ability or interest in moving to network engineering.

Better definitions and career prospects in IT would go a long way to attracting better talent, assisting people in the field actually get where they want to go and produce overall far better results. Without these points being clarified and ironed out, how does IT hiring have any chance?

Yeah I can see how that would only help.

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

@jmoore said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

I think I was a decent bench tech and I can guarantee that bench doesn't teach you that. Because bench never sees systems running, they really don't know how things relate to each other. They see what works and fails, but not work works well or poorly. Bench rarely would be exposed to enough of the full stack to have any useful insight there.

Well they should lol, anytime I have a chance I run bench marks on hd to make sure it is performing correctly on our important machines. Then i keep the data , organized well of course, so i can compare with another user at a moments notice.

This gets into the grey area of overlap. Typically bench would have no access to run a benchmark of that nature. But if they had access, doing so would be good to monitor for proactive physical drive failure.

In a bench role, bench would use this info to prepare for parts replacement.

In an IT role, IT would use this info to determine capacity planning needs or purchasing changes.

Yeah and since I choose to do this on my own I guess I make myself a little bit of bench which I had not realized before.

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

Another example that I like to use is an analogy from The Bard's Tale (Electronics Arts, 1986.) IT is like the magician, Bench is like the conjurer.

If that doesn't instantly make sense, go play Bard's Tale and get back to me when you've defeat the boss of the fourth dungeon

Lol best example yet. I remember that from too long ago.

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

One of the things that I find surprising, but I know deep down why it happens, is that a lot of people who call themselves IT get offended when they find out that I define them as bench. But this implies that they see bench as too lowly for them or that they are too good to be seen as bench techs. Which is odd because they are happy with the work and the pay, but feel the need to be labeled something that they are not. This implies that a lot of bench people feel ashamed of the work that they do, which they should not as it is a necessary and valuable career. Why "not being IT" is seen as a mark of shame makes little sense to me. Do lawyers skulk because they practice law instead of doing IT? Seems unlikely.

You could be on to something there.

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

@jmoore said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

This is where we keep disconnecting. Knowing bench does NOT mean knowing how the technology works. How it works is IT. The problem with the people in your example is that they don't know IT. Bench has nothing to do with the situation. This is a basic IT failing.

I can understand that then. I assumed they would know how it works better than they do with the money they make.

One would hope, but in reality making a lot of money rarely results from technical knowledge. Schmoozing does way, way more for getting salaries up.

Yeah you should see how some of the women here act when a woman vp comes in. Its almost a physical transformation and they all run to stand next to her.

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

@jmoore said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

Bench doesn't buy tech, bench works on tech in a business. They work on tech purchased by IT. If you stick to the definitions that I gave, it really does keep this clear. Bench doesn't make business decisions. If you feel that bench is doing that, check again, it's always IT making the decision (or no one making a decision and it is all just random... which is pretty reckless.)

Alright for the sake of not going down a rabbit hole we will never emerge from I guess i can use your definition:)

Well it's kind of important for a critical reason - if I say that Bench is X and IT is Y, and then that bench does XX and IT does YY and we then trying to figure out who does Z, if we don't share the original definition then we have a big disconnect.

I think a lot of the confusion here is not that you feel bench knowledge is useful, but that you feel that my reference to bench is something that I'm saying is IT. So I say "Bench means X and X means..." but you are hearing me say "Bench means Y and X means..." so the results from the same statement come to different places.

Once you accept that when I say bench I mean X then I think by extension you automatically see that the people I call bench and their knowledge would do nothing to help IT decision making. But if you feel it is something totally different, then it might.

It's easy to argue that bench and IT aren't that clearly defined, and that's fine. That's just discussing how words are used. But once they are defined as I've defined them, I think there is little grey area as to how bench and IT as I define them work and interact.

Does that make more sense?

Yes that does make more sense. For it to make sense I just have to forget previous definitions. What i was originally taught was that bench work was the lowest level of IT and the higher up you go the more of everything that you knew. Good management knew how to do absolutely everything adequately.

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

@jmoore said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

@scottalanmiller said in Where Does University Need to Focus for IT Students:

They are so wildly different, it's hard to believe anyone working in either does that. There really is extremely little overlap. In the enterprise space, they are not just totally separate disciplines, but have legal ramifications and in the financial space have full separation of duty concerns. IT isn't allowed into data centers, bench isn't allowed access to IT systems. They are extremely discrete.

They certainly do which is where my own biases come from. They come from management themselves who believe this. However, this has all been small businesses where an IT person does anything connected with the systems

Managers that are not IT or bench experts would often be the source of bad info. And the SMB is just a mess not just of IT doing everything including plugging in microwaves and fixing toasters, but all IT disciplines are merged into one as well with people unsure even what a system admin is.

That's actually a great example. Think about the SMB where managers can't figure out the different between an admin and an engineer, a systems or network person and so forth. If they don't even know what IT titles are or what they mean, how would they ever figure out what is or isn't IT?

Your right that is a good example and I think way too many businesses have that issue.