The Lack of Work Ethic and the Need for Laborers
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@Carnival-Boy said:
Bill Gates didn't say those things. It was Charles Sykes from a book called Dumbing Down our Kids". I think most of it is bollocks, personally, but then I'm a bit of a left wing, bleeding heart liberal. It might be because I'm European
@scottalanmiller Perhaps you're not close enough to the education system in Europe so maybe you can't answer this, Do you think the education system in the US vs Europe is so horrible that the above mentioned things are true, but because of the difference in systems Europeans can't see them?
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@Carnival-Boy ,
I would love to see your counter-argument to each of the 11 points made above. -
I'll have a go.
Rule 4. If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss.
When I was 7 my teacher smacked me in the front of the class for talking. I was devastated. I wish I'd been told then that a boss will never physically hit me or humiliate me. That day was really as bad as life at school or work ever got. Fortunately, teachers aren't allow to physically abuse my own kids, but the average, low level bullying that kids have to put up with is far worse than most people have to deal with at work and a lot of teachers are meaner than bosses. If a colleague hits me he'd get sacked, if my kids' classmate hits them the worst they'll get is probably detention. So my kids have to put up with far worse treatment that I do.
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OK physical abuse is definitely not called for, probably ever (though who doesn't want to smack an ID10T sometimes). But bullying happens as much if not more in work environments than in school, if for no other reason than you work for 50+ years and only go to school for 13 (not counting collage).
The biggest problem we have in our office is bullying. We have a staffing problem because of this.
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- Life is not fair - get used to it
No, don't get used to it. Fight it. Try and change the world. Join political groups. Join protest groups. Go on marches. Sign petitions. Make the world fairer. It probably won't help, but better to die trying than give up and accept it.
I've given up trying. I'm old and cynical now. But I don't want to tell my kids to be more like me.
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@Dashrender said:
OK physical abuse is definitely not called for, probably ever (though who doesn't want to smack an ID10T sometimes). But bullying happens as much if not more in work environments than in school, if for no other reason than you work for 50+ years and only go to school for 13 (not counting collage).
The biggest problem we have in our office is bullying. We have a staffing problem because of this.
I agree that physical abuse isn't really generally an issue in the workplace, but the bullying factor is WAY worse. How many people have jobs they are stuck at where they are treated horribly by peers, or worse, a supervisor, but can't do anything about it? I've seen this more times than I can count.
No, work is WAY worse than school.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
- Life is not fair - get used to it
No, don't get used to it. Fight it. Try and change the world. Join political groups. Join protest groups. Go on marches. Sign petitions. Make the world fairer. It probably won't help, but better to die trying than give up and accept it.
I've given up trying. I'm old and cynical now. But I don't want to tell my kids to be more like me.
Life isn't fair. No amount of political change or anything will ever change this. People who are good people get sick while assholes are fine. The hard workers don't get ahead at work, but the boss' son gets promotion after promotion and bonus after bonus. No, you can change small pieces, but life will always be unfair.
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@handsofqwerty said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
- Life is not fair - get used to it
No, don't get used to it. Fight it. Try and change the world. Join political groups. Join protest groups. Go on marches. Sign petitions. Make the world fairer. It probably won't help, but better to die trying than give up and accept it.
I've given up trying. I'm old and cynical now. But I don't want to tell my kids to be more like me.
Life isn't fair. No amount of political change or anything will ever change this. People who are good people get sick while assholes are fine. The hard workers don't get ahead at work, but the boss' son gets promotion after promotion and bonus after bonus. No, you can change small pieces, but life will always be unfair.
He never said life was fair. He said don't get used to it. Read the words, not want you want to hear.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
- Life is not fair - get used to it
No, don't get used to it. Fight it. Try and change the world. Join political groups. Join protest groups. Go on marches. Sign petitions. Make the world fairer. It probably won't help, but better to die trying than give up and accept it.
I've given up trying. I'm old and cynical now. But I don't want to tell my kids to be more like me.
I see where you're going with this, I guess instead of saying simply fight, I'd change to that to know which battles to fight and which ones not to. But realize that life isn't fair, and never will be, so don't allow yourself to become jaded over it, instead look for ways to better your own situation instead of always fixing the broken one.
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VP with a Car Phone? A car phone hasn't been "cool" since 1989. Car phones were generally the big bulky units before mobile phones could be made small enough to be, well, mobile. I had a mobile phone (post-car phone era) by 1992 as a teenager in high school, just to put a date on things. Even by that point the idea of a "car phone" where the phone was attached to the car was dated enough that having one would have seemed weird or very special case (like a limo that was shared by people who shared a phone account.)
Either this thing is ancient or whoever said it is desperately out of touch. A very odd thing to have said. What high schooler today would even understand the reference?
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@Carnival-Boy said:
I'll have a go.
Rule 4. If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss.
When I was 7 my teacher smacked me in the front of the class for talking. I was devastated. I wish I'd been told then that a boss will never physically hit me or humiliate me. That day was really as bad as life at school or work ever got. Fortunately, teachers aren't allow to physically abuse my own kids, but the average, low level bullying that kids have to put up with is far worse than most people have to deal with at work and a lot of teachers are meaner than bosses. If a colleague hits me he'd get sacked, if my kids' classmate hits them the worst they'll get is probably detention. So my kids have to put up with far worse treatment that I do.
I actually was thinking the same thing. School is much harder, emotionally, than work. School work is all about busy work and making sure things are hard, even when you can excel. The "real world" after school cares about results. If you do the work well, no one cares how you did it or that you did work at home while no one was looking. Bosses want you to make them money.
School is very tough, in really bad ways. When I was a kid my father always said he would never going back to being a kid, the work world was so much better. It lets you grow, learn and is happy when you succeed. You get to be productive and creative and no one wants to screw you over just to do so, because they lose too, even more than you normally, when they do that.
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@handsofqwerty said:
I agree that physical abuse isn't really generally an issue in the workplace, but the bullying factor is WAY worse. How many people have jobs they are stuck at where they are treated horribly by peers, or worse, a supervisor, but can't do anything about it? I've seen this more times than I can count.
There is no comparison. Adults can change jobs, change careers, are emotionally and mentally better equipped to handle bullying and have far, far more laws and employment structures to protect them. Children are often not just bullied by other kids, but are bullied by the school administration itself and in many cases the schools assist bullies in bullying the weak kids (like by equally punishing both the bully and the bullied - making the victims of bullying victims of the school too!)
It is not worse in the workplace. That that are outlying cases where someone is bullied in the work place and not in school doesn't imply that it isn't worse for kids. The "Lord of the Flies" or "prison life" effect of schools full of immature, no success ranking or goals of kids creates a bully-rich environment with few consequences.
The work world, while imperfect, has checks and balances built into the system. Those that bully create work environments where good people don't want to work and profits are lost. Not in every case, but in general. In schools, there is no such natural adjustments. Children and captives of their schools, not in a free market able to move location, job description, etc.
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Rule 3: Dispute.
While lots of people won't and shouldn't make $60K right out of high school. Many will. Even in the early 1990s I knew people hitting $70K the year they were out of high school (hitting that rate within a year, not accumulating $70K within the first calendar year.) Common, no. Doable? Yes.
And that wasn't in IT. I remember by 2000 talk of kids graduating with $75K deals offered to them in their junior years in high school (upon graduation, not to drop out) for work in IT. I didn't know any of those kids, though.
If someone is really passionate in high school and a hard worker, $60K is pretty hard to do, but it isn't some magic, unobtainable number only for kids of the ultra rick or wonder kids.
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I do agree with Rule 5 a lot. Flipping burgers (or similar, bagging groceries and making pizzas) were major growth things for me personally. Hated doing it, very glad that I did it.
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I don't care who said/wrote any bit of that article. I agree with 95% of it whole-heartedly. That is all. And, to be clear, I am speaking of the heart of what's said, not the silly details like the exact "$60,000" value, or the "car phone" remark. Those are only making a point, not the crux of the matter.
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@art_of_shred said:
I don't care who said/wrote any bit of that article. I agree with 95% of it whole-heartedly. That is all. And, to be clear, I am speaking of the heart of what's said, not the silly details like the exact "$60,000" value, or the "car phone" remark. Those are only making a point, not the crux of the matter.
I very much dislike people that copy/paste crap on FB. Most of the time these people have no idea what they are even reposting. Seeing something blatantly wrong on ML is just insulting to the intelligent people that I thought were participating in this community.
The OP's posted information was two different things that were wrote by two different people and neither of the original authors were credited.
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@JaredBusch said:
@art_of_shred said:
I don't care who said/wrote any bit of that article. I agree with 95% of it whole-heartedly. That is all. And, to be clear, I am speaking of the heart of what's said, not the silly details like the exact "$60,000" value, or the "car phone" remark. Those are only making a point, not the crux of the matter.
I very much dislike people that copy/paste crap on FB. Most of the time these people have no idea what they are even reposting. Seeing something blatantly wrong on ML is just insulting to the intelligent people that I thought were participating in this community.
The OP's posted information was two different things that were wrote by two different people and neither of the original authors were credited.
I agree, FB (and other places) are becoming dumping grounds for a lot of things. There are some patterns, this one is one of those "motivational" postings where someone with an agenda finds some sound bites that they like, attribute them to someone they think will really carry some weight and then post it for people to blindly repeat. Maybe the underlying values or ideas are good, maybe not. But the way that they are presented is to lend them credence by associating them with someone, in theory, far more of an authority or more highly respected that the people who actually said the things (which may, in many cases, just be the person creating the image in the first place.)
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Apropos:
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@JaredBusch said:
@art_of_shred said:
I don't care who said/wrote any bit of that article. I agree with 95% of it whole-heartedly. That is all. And, to be clear, I am speaking of the heart of what's said, not the silly details like the exact "$60,000" value, or the "car phone" remark. Those are only making a point, not the crux of the matter.
I very much dislike people that copy/paste crap on FB. Most of the time these people have no idea what they are even reposting. Seeing something blatantly wrong on ML is just insulting to the intelligent people that I thought were participating in this community.
The OP's posted information was two different things that were wrote by two different people and neither of the original authors were credited.
I am aware it was two separate things. The Mike Rowe thing was from Facebook. The other was something I heard years ago.
