The Lack of Work Ethic and the Need for Laborers
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@JaredBusch said:
@art_of_shred said:
I don't care who said/wrote any bit of that article. I agree with 95% of it whole-heartedly. That is all. And, to be clear, I am speaking of the heart of what's said, not the silly details like the exact "$60,000" value, or the "car phone" remark. Those are only making a point, not the crux of the matter.
I very much dislike people that copy/paste crap on FB. Most of the time these people have no idea what they are even reposting. Seeing something blatantly wrong on ML is just insulting to the intelligent people that I thought were participating in this community.
The OP's posted information was two different things that were wrote by two different people and neither of the original authors were credited.
I am aware it was two separate things. The Mike Rowe thing was from Facebook. The other was something I heard years ago.
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@scottalanmiller said:
VP with a Car Phone? ...Either this thing is ancient or whoever said it is desperately out of touch. A very odd thing to have said. What high schooler today would even understand the reference?
The book came out in 1996, so yeah, it's 20 years old. The full title is "Dumbing down Our Kids: Why American Children Feel Good about Themselves but Can't Read, Write, or Add"
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I can't comment on the US education system, although the US economy still leads the world so you must be doing something right. But I can compare my own kids' current education with the one I had in the 70s and I know that schools now are far more competitive than they were in my day. My kids have tons of homework (I had none until I was 11) and have to take exams. Schools compete with each other (we have league tables of school performance) and that competitiveness is passed on to the kids who are pressured into performing and getting good exams results.
Sometimes that's a good thing, my daughter struggled to learn to read and the school threw loads of extra resources at her to prevent a black mark against the school for missing a "reading milestone", but sometimes a bad thing - my son is often stressed and I'd like him to simply enjoy school more. What it is not is "dumbed down".
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@scottalanmiller said:
I do agree with Rule 5 a lot. Flipping burgers (or similar, bagging groceries and making pizzas) were major growth things for me personally. Hated doing it, very glad that I did it.
What I disagree with is the suggestion that the younger generation think it is beneath their dignity. That's simply not been my experience. Of the resumes I've received recently from young people, pretty much all have worked in McDonalds or similar. It's normal now. I read the other day some stat that was something like half of all baristas in London have University degrees (I can't remember the exact stat). This would have been shocking in the sixties, but it's normal now. I think only the 1% super-rich who get an allowance from their parents are likely to turn their noses up at these kinds of jobs.
If anything, I'd say "your grandparents", who left school in the fifties and sixties during an economic boom and full employment, are more likely to think flipping burgers is beneath their dignity rather than the young generation who are leaving school in era of massive house prices, no job security and huge education fees and who simply need the cash to survive.
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The US Education system sucks. Everything is brought down to the lowest level of student in the class room. A middle level student that doesn't care is ok in this system. But if you are smart you are punished for it. We also have something called common core (it's horrible). My son was reading before he started school they refused to allow him to get a chapter book out cause that would make other kids that don't read feel bad. He didn't stay in public school we pulled him out and homeschooled.
Kids only know how to do 2 things here: Take tests that don't actually prepare them for anything. And rely on someone else to hand them something later on.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
What I disagree with is the suggestion that the younger generation think it is beneath their dignity. That's simply not been my experience.
I agree here. Flipping burgers was not beneath our dignity and it should be below anyone elses. But I have no reason to feel that the current generation (hey, why are WE not current? We are still alive you know!!) isn't willing to do that. The idea that everyone expects to be rich out of high school and never work doesn't seem to exist by any observation that I have had.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
If anything, I'd say "your grandparents", who left school in the fifties and sixties during an economic boom and full employment, are more likely to think flipping burgers is beneath their dignity rather than the young generation who are leaving school in era of massive house prices, no job security and huge education fees and who simply need the cash to survive.
This ^^^^^
It was our parents (and their parents) that had the "go to college, a career is automatic" thing. Most didn't go to college, but those that did effectively bought themselves a career. They didn't have to work for it. Companies fought for them as the supply of workers was so short. It is from them, not from the last forty years, that the feeling that college was some magic guarantee of income comes from. It was the economic boom of the post war era, not the college or anything that they did, that made it happen.
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@JaredBusch said:
@art_of_shred said:
I don't care who said/wrote any bit of that article. I agree with 95% of it whole-heartedly. That is all. And, to be clear, I am speaking of the heart of what's said, not the silly details like the exact "$60,000" value, or the "car phone" remark. Those are only making a point, not the crux of the matter.
I very much dislike people that copy/paste crap on FB. Most of the time these people have no idea what they are even reposting. Seeing something blatantly wrong on ML is just insulting to the intelligent people that I thought were participating in this community.
The OP's posted information was two different things that were wrote by two different people and neither of the original authors were credited.
Who pissed in your Cheerios? If you don't like that the proper sources weren't credited, step up to the plate and give the proper credit. Either way, it doesn't change the wisdom the words express. That was my point. Maybe you disagree, which is perfectly fine.
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@art_of_shred said:
Who pissed in your Cheerios?
@scottalanmiller lately it seems.
@art_of_shred said:
If you don't like that the proper sources weren't credited, step up to the plate and give the proper credit.
I did. It was the very first reply to the post.
@art_of_shred said:
Either way, it doesn't change the wisdom the words express. That was my point. Maybe you disagree, which is perfectly fine.
I happen to agree in this case, but that is only because I went back and read the original source to confirm that the quote was not taken out of context. That was my only point.
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I'm curious; why does it matter who said something? What bearing does that have on the truth of what was said? Personally, I read the words and agreed. If I saw who said it, that would only add credibility to that person, in my opinion. Do words only get credit for you if they come from a person you have deemed credible? Not trying to argue, just genuinely curious, as that is exactly the opposite of how I would process it.
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@art_of_shred said:
I'm curious; why does it matter who said something? What bearing does that have on the truth of what was said?
Depends. For most people, IMHO, the source is the only thing that lends credence to the statement. If homeless people tell you that hard work gets you nowhere it means one thing. If Bill Gates says it, it means another. And if you don't care who said something because you are basing your agreement on whether you agree or not then knowing who said it at all is pointless.
So I say, it's fine to skip saying who said something because you are just repeating something that yu agree with. But stating who said something and having it not be correct matters because a lot of people only take advice based on the fame or stature of who said it.
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@art_of_shred said:
I'm curious; why does it matter who said something? What bearing does that have on the truth of what was said?
In the case of something "copy/pasted" around facebook? I very simply ignore it. I do not even bother to read it.
In this instance that copy/paste was reposted here, where I ignore very little.But I refuse to take copy/pasted out of context words at face value.
A good example of something being taken out of context (and at least bringing the OP around once he realized it) is the recent hate mongering post against Caitlyn Jenner. Some guy posted a random photo spewing hate and prejudice to FB, it went viral, and then oops, that photo was created by a cross-dresser in an effort to overcome severe hate crime injuries.
This is why, yes this stuff should be validated before blindly posted. And if it is blindly posted, I will generally ignore it.
The only reason I did not was because of WHERE it was posted. A community of individuals that I thought were generally more thoughtful than the norm.
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The thing that everyone needs to remember is that not everyone thinks or processes things the same way. We have a decent size Aspie contingent around here, they all DO NOT process things like everyone else. We also have people that while are in IT are not mature or have much wisdom either in experience or in age. Part of being a community is while you might not agree with something someone has posted or said that the tenor of responses can be at least civil and help guide those that aren't at your level to grow to your level.
Not to be too much of a Mother here but remember your mom saying: "It's not what you say but how you say it?", that totally fits here guys.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@art_of_shred said:
I'm curious; why does it matter who said something? What bearing does that have on the truth of what was said?
Depends. For most people, IMHO, the source is the only thing that lends credence to the statement. If homeless people tell you that hard work gets you nowhere it means one thing. If Bill Gates says it, it means another. And if you don't care who said something because you are basing your agreement on whether you agree or not then knowing who said it at all is pointless.
So I say, it's fine to skip saying who said something because you are just repeating something that yu agree with. But stating who said something and having it not be correct matters because a lot of people only take advice based on the fame or stature of who said it.
I guess that's really the point. I weigh what I hear against my own values/judgment/opinions and then assign value to what I have heard, rather than just trusting things I hear from people who I have deemed worthy of influencing my values/judgment/opinions. It's the incoming information that's on trial, not me.
Of course, there is always a difference between the same sentence coming from Mother Teresa and Adolph Hitler, but that's not really what I am talking about. Even then, I care more about what's said than who said it. After all, Hitler wasn't an idiot and Teresa wasn't a genius.
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@Minion-Queen said:
We also have people that while are in IT are not mature or have much wisdom
Hey!
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@Minion-Queen said:
The thing that everyone needs to remember is that not everyone thinks or processes things the same way. We have a decent size Aspie contingent around here, they all DO NOT process things like everyone else. We also have people that while are in IT are not mature or have much wisdom either in experience or in age. Part of being a community is while you might not agree with something someone has posted or said that the tenor of responses can be at least civil and help guide those that aren't at your level to grow to your level.
Not to be too much of a Mother here but remember your mom saying: "It's not what you say but how you say it?", that totally fits here guys.
I really hate this quote - I, like Scott, generally say the words I mean to say - my tone has little actual meaning.. yet I find myself in trouble all the time because people read into a tone that I personally pay little attention to.
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@art_of_shred said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@art_of_shred said:
I'm curious; why does it matter who said something? What bearing does that have on the truth of what was said?
Depends. For most people, IMHO, the source is the only thing that lends credence to the statement. If homeless people tell you that hard work gets you nowhere it means one thing. If Bill Gates says it, it means another. And if you don't care who said something because you are basing your agreement on whether you agree or not then knowing who said it at all is pointless.
So I say, it's fine to skip saying who said something because you are just repeating something that yu agree with. But stating who said something and having it not be correct matters because a lot of people only take advice based on the fame or stature of who said it.
I guess that's really the point. I weigh what I hear against my own values/judgment/opinions and then assign value to what I have heard, rather than just trusting things I hear from people who I have deemed worthy of influencing my values/judgment/opinions. It's the incoming information that's on trial, not me.
Of course, there is always a difference between the same sentence coming from Mother Teresa and Adolph Hitler, but that's not really what I am talking about. Even then, I care more about what's said than who said it. After all, Hitler wasn't an idiot and Teresa wasn't a genius.
Yes but that drives even more to the point that Scott was making. But we've already drifted so far off topic that I'll just stop.
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@Dashrender said:
@Minion-Queen said:
The thing that everyone needs to remember is that not everyone thinks or processes things the same way. We have a decent size Aspie contingent around here, they all DO NOT process things like everyone else. We also have people that while are in IT are not mature or have much wisdom either in experience or in age. Part of being a community is while you might not agree with something someone has posted or said that the tenor of responses can be at least civil and help guide those that aren't at your level to grow to your level.
Not to be too much of a Mother here but remember your mom saying: "It's not what you say but how you say it?", that totally fits here guys.
I really hate this quote - I, like Scott, generally say the words I mean to say - my tone has little actual meaning.. yet I find myself in trouble all the time because people read into a tone that I personally pay little attention to.
There are nice ways to say things and rude ways to say things. If you're not thinking about that and just say things, it's probably coming off under the "rude" category. That's not the reader's problem; it's yours, for not being conscientious of the manner in which you are communicating. So, while you may not mean anything by it, your lack of attention (read: giving a crap) is conveyed. If you don't like that, simply pay attention to the way you write/speak and use softer speech. It's a real issue for the "Aspies", and I often wonder if they can even perceive it, in order to make the adjustment. And I don't mean this as a slam on anyone, just offering some clarity.
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There's rude and then there's just being to sensitive. Frankly I think we're too worried today about bruising everyone else's feelings that we actually find it more difficult to communicate today than it was 20-30 years ago.
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@Dashrender said:
There's rude and then there's just being to sensitive. Frankly I think we're too worried today about bruising everyone else's feelings that we actually find it more difficult to communicate today than it was 20-30 years ago.
In some ways, and this is one of them, I think modern communications is harder. It is very hard to convey accurately when someone is mad, angry, mean or just being read into or read incorrectly (or made a typo.) Lacking body language and vocal tone means that we have to be able to write far better than ever before.
We also have the issue of people walking away mid conversation which never used to happen. You used to have to actually turn your back and walk away from someone you were talking to and acknowledge openly that you had given up or were admitting you were wrong or whatever by doing so. But online people just stop posting and you don't know if they walked away, died, lost power, had to feed the cat or whatever.
