Writing a Cover Letter
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@thanksaj said:
@IRJ said:
@thanksaj said:
@IRJ said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
I'm not asking for an eloquent covering letter, I'm asking for a covering letter.
Why?
I kind of agree with this. What you've just said is that you are expecting mediocre and that average is the standard to meet. At that point, what purpose does it serve? To me this reads "I want a cover letter for the sake of having a cover letter".
Exactly what is the point? This is why I don't do cover letters since my writing isn't so great. It would only devalue my resume
You aren't a horrible writer. I've seen your work. You're not bad. You're what I've seen from a lot of IT people whose writing I've seen. Writing eloquently requires a certain way of thinking that some have and some don't. I see a lot of people get into IT because they lack that way of thinking, which is more of a creative art than a technical one. That being said, many IT people have the same ability but manifest it through music or other art that isn't written. But if I was a hiring manager, I would look at technical first and foremost. Writing is important to me, and God knows I'm a grammar Nazi, but it's a much lower priority.
I can pick the right words, but my punctuation and sentence structure is bad.
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@thanksaj said:
I refuse to work for stupid people, which considering I like working at MSPs may seem weird, but I'm not working for the clients, I work for the MSP. If I had a boss that repeatedly did things that made no sense against the word of myself and/or others when we are supposed to be the experts on the matter, then I would find alternate employment. I have a real aversion to bashing my head against the wall unnecessarily.
This is one task - writing a covering letter. In any job, you're never going to agree with your boss on everything. It would be arrogant to assume you're always right and they're always wrong. A lot of times, there are many ways of doing things and people have different opinions. But as the boss, if the shit hits the fan then it is my neck on the line. If my staff screw up then I always take the blame in front of my bosses - I never let them take the blame. I can be persuaded to change my mind, but ultimately as it's my neck on the line, it's my way or the highway (if you'll excuse the mixed metaphors).
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@IRJ said:
You can't give a valid reason of Why so you turn the question around about something completely unrelated. I'll bite the bait, though.
I can give a reason, but you may not think it's valid. I always thought of a covering letter as being a bit more personal and a bit more targeted to the actual job, whereas a CV/resume is a bit more generic.
I'd like it to give a reason why they're applying. For example, "I currently work for a large organisation but would prefer to work for an SMB", or "I currently work for a distribution company but would prefer to work for a manufacturing company". I don't know, just something a bit personal. A few sentences without any spelling mistakes. I don't think that's asking too much.
When I started my career, pre-internet, I'd go to the public library to research the company I was applying for. It was a lot of effort. I don't remember IT jobs being a dime-a-dozen back then, but perhaps I was just crap? I certainly didn't find it easy to find really good jobs in my twenties. Maybe the world has changed since.
The only thing I'm confused about - if SMB jobs are so easy to come by, why are there so many threads on Spiceworks about crap SMB jobs? Why don't these people just quit and get a new job? There seems to be a new thread every day. Working for me would be a breeze compared with the experiences I read about on there.
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@IRJ said:
@thanksaj said:
@IRJ said:
@thanksaj said:
@IRJ said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
I'm not asking for an eloquent covering letter, I'm asking for a covering letter.
Why?
I kind of agree with this. What you've just said is that you are expecting mediocre and that average is the standard to meet. At that point, what purpose does it serve? To me this reads "I want a cover letter for the sake of having a cover letter".
Exactly what is the point? This is why I don't do cover letters since my writing isn't so great. It would only devalue my resume
You aren't a horrible writer. I've seen your work. You're not bad. You're what I've seen from a lot of IT people whose writing I've seen. Writing eloquently requires a certain way of thinking that some have and some don't. I see a lot of people get into IT because they lack that way of thinking, which is more of a creative art than a technical one. That being said, many IT people have the same ability but manifest it through music or other art that isn't written. But if I was a hiring manager, I would look at technical first and foremost. Writing is important to me, and God knows I'm a grammar Nazi, but it's a much lower priority.
I can pick the right words, but my punctuation and sentence structure is bad.
Writing is an interesting skill, because you have the creative side, which is picking your words and creating a flow with your sentences, both individually and as paragraphs, and then there is the technical side, which is all the rules of grammar and syntax, etc. That doesn't even touch on the pure knowledge portion of knowing what synonyms you can use in place of a word like good or nice that makes it sound better, or more sophisticated/suave. Whatever, it's no big deal.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
The only thing I'm confused about - if SMB jobs are so easy to come by, why are there so many threads on Spiceworks about crap SMB jobs? Why don't these people just quit and get a new job? There seems to be a new thread every day. Working for me would be a breeze compared with the experiences I read about on there.
What I meant was if I login to career builder right now and search for jobs in my area, I will see at least 10 SMB jobs that are very similiar. I would definitely apply to them, but I wouldn't necessarily get all worked up over one particular posting
Does that make sense?
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@Carnival-Boy said:
I'd like it to give a reason why they're applying. For example, "I currently work for a large organisation but would prefer to work for an SMB", or "I currently work for a distribution company but would prefer to work for a manufacturing company". I don't know, just something a bit personal. A few sentences without any spelling mistakes. I don't think that's asking too much.
I think that's fair question. I have seen employers post a question like that on job postings, but more times than not that is the type of question that is asked in the interview.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@thanksaj said:
I refuse to work for stupid people, which considering I like working at MSPs may seem weird, but I'm not working for the clients, I work for the MSP. If I had a boss that repeatedly did things that made no sense against the word of myself and/or others when we are supposed to be the experts on the matter, then I would find alternate employment. I have a real aversion to bashing my head against the wall unnecessarily.
This is one task - writing a covering letter. In any job, you're never going to agree with your boss on everything. It would be arrogant to assume you're always right and they're always wrong. A lot of times, there are many ways of doing things and people have different opinions. But as the boss, if the shit hits the fan then it is my neck on the line. If my staff screw up then I always take the blame in front of my bosses - I never let them take the blame. I can be persuaded to change my mind, but ultimately as it's my neck on the line, it's my way or the highway (if you'll excuse the mixed metaphors).
I never said that I had to agree with everything that was done. I am not conceited into believing that I'm always right or that my way is the only way. I also know that, like you said, when the shit hits the fan, it's my boss who will ultimately pay the price. I respect that they are in that position. I am with @coliver in that I expect that if I raise a question, it should be answered. If I have an idea as to another way, I expect to at least be heard. Even if they decide the original way or some other way is better, that's fine. I just can't tolerate being ignored. But now we're getting off-topic from our discussion about why you require a cover letter. So far all you've said is that you require it so people should provide it. You haven't actually explained why you want it.
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@IRJ said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
I'd like it to give a reason why they're applying. For example, "I currently work for a large organisation but would prefer to work for an SMB", or "I currently work for a distribution company but would prefer to work for a manufacturing company". I don't know, just something a bit personal. A few sentences without any spelling mistakes. I don't think that's asking too much.
I think that's fair question. I have seen employers post a question like that on job postings, but more times than not that is the type of question that is asked in the interview.
I was going to reply to say this. Generally those are questions better answered (and observed) during an interview. I don't see those really effecting the decision to give someone an interview though which is why I don't really understand why they should be included in a cover letter.
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@IRJ said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
I'd like it to give a reason why they're applying. For example, "I currently work for a large organisation but would prefer to work for an SMB", or "I currently work for a distribution company but would prefer to work for a manufacturing company". I don't know, just something a bit personal. A few sentences without any spelling mistakes. I don't think that's asking too much.
I think that's fair question. I have seen employers post a question like that on job postings, but more times than not that is the type of question that is asked in the interview.
Exactly. You shouldn't be trying to get to know someone from a cover letter, because unless it's several pages long, you will be missing so much context. Resumes are generic, because you're looking at the value the person would add from a technical perspective. Once you establish that out of 10 candidates, 3 have the technical qualifications you need, you can call them in for an interview. Once there, ask them why they are considering this job. What excites them about it? You can ask them more about their history and get a story. You also get a face to put to the name, and you can look them in the eyes and see what kind of person they are. That may seem like a very old-fashioned concept, but I am a firm believer that you can tell an enormous amount about a person based solely on what you see what you look in their eyes when they're talking.
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I actually see very few SMB jobs in the UK. A lot of SMBs don't employ their own internal IT staff and outsource everything to MSPs. Most IT jobs I see advertised are for large enterprises or IT companies - neither of which interest me. Added to that, we're a manufacturing company, and there is even less SMB manufacturing around here - most manufacturers are either massive employing hundreds or thousands, or tiny engineering firms employing just a handful of people.
Ideally, I want someone who prefers to work for an SMB manufacturer. It would be nice if they were to actually say that in there covering letter.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
I actually see very few SMB jobs in the UK. A lot of SMBs don't employ their own internal IT staff and outsource everything to MSPs. Most IT jobs I see advertised are for large enterprises or IT companies - neither of which interest me. Added to that, we're a manufacturing company, and there is even less SMB manufacturing around here - most manufacturers are either massive employing hundreds or thousands, or tiny engineering firms employing just a handful of people.
Ideally, I want someone who prefers to work for an SMB manufacturer. It would be nice if they were to actually say that in there covering letter.
You see, I get where you're coming from, but now you've shifted your focus. Now you've kind of said that the technical qualifications are not the most important thing, which there are times they aren't. To me, it sounds like you are looking more at the person than their resume, which means interviews are going to be your friend. You could put in the ad that you are looking for someone who wants to work both SMB and manufacturing, and I can almost guarantee that 19/20 candidates are applying simply because they feel they could do the job and don't really care what market it's in. Maybe some do prefer SMB to enterprise. But you're looking for something very specific, and it's far too easy to lie on a cover letter. I think we've all done it. "Why do you want to work for this company?" You can put any of 100 things there, and you have no way of knowing what's true and what's not. Open interviews might be your friend.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
I actually see very few SMB jobs in the UK. A lot of SMBs don't employ their own internal IT staff and outsource everything to MSPs. Most IT jobs I see advertised are for large enterprises or IT companies - neither of which interest me. Added to that, we're a manufacturing company, and there is even less SMB manufacturing around here - most manufacturers are either massive employing hundreds or thousands, or tiny engineering firms employing just a handful of people.
Ideally, I want someone who prefers to work for an SMB manufacturer. It would be nice if they were to actually say that in there covering letter.
I'm curious, why does their preference matter? I am the sole IT person at a manufacturing company right now, previously I worked at a school, before that I was working at a hardware store doing sales and IT part time. I have 0 preference of where I work as long as I am able to apply my skills in a useful/productive fashion and get paid for it. Saying that people who like to work in a manufacturing environment are better at it is being disingenuous to everyone involved in the hiring process.
I will agree jobs at an SMB are hard to come by in my area as well (mostly because there are few to no SMBs around)
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@thanksaj said:
I can almost guarantee that 19/20 candidates are applying simply because they feel they could do the job and don't really care what market it's in.Very true. Also I do zero research on a company unless I make it to the interview stage. Otherwise, its a waste of my time
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@IRJ said:
@thanksaj said:
I can almost guarantee that 19/20 candidates are applying simply because they feel they could do the job and don't really care what market it's in.Very true. Also I do zero research on a company unless I make it to the interview stage. Otherwise, its a waste of my time
I actually do research the company before applying. Mostly because of curiosity and general interest, I like to know what they make, who their clients are, etc... It is actually pretty cool to see how much is made in an area "local" to you. For instance I had no idea that Lockheed still had manufacturing up in Syracuse, NY until I applied to a position at that location.
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@thanksaj said:
You could put in the ad that you are looking for someone who wants to work both SMB and manufacturing, and I can almost guarantee that 19/20 candidates are applying simply because they feel they could do the job and don't really care what market it's in. Maybe some do prefer SMB to enterprise. But you're looking for something very specific, and it's far too easy to lie on a cover letter. I think we've all done it. "Why do you want to work for this company?" You can put any of 100 things there, and you have no way of knowing what's true and what's not.
Yes, but I was answering a specific point IRJ made that people can't be expected to be bothered writing a covering letter because there are so many IT jobs they can apply for. So my point is that my job is fairly unusual and so if it is the kind of thing that interests you, you might be happy to spend a few minutes writing a covering letter. The mere fact that they have bothered to write a covering letter at all might therefore indicate that they are genuinely interested in working for an SMB manufacturer. It's about sending the right signals.
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@IRJ said:
@thanksaj said:
I can almost guarantee that 19/20 candidates are applying simply because they feel they could do the job and don't really care what market it's in.Very true. Also I do zero research on a company unless I make it to the interview stage. Otherwise, its a waste of my time
Exactly. If I get an interview, then I'll spend some time researching the company, especially if they're a small company. McAfee couldn't care less if I researched their history, etc when I interviewed. But at my current job, I'm employee number 22 in the entire company. You show up at an interview having read their about us page and spent a few minutes knowing their history, it goes a long ways. I've found you often get a decent story/history lesson when you interview at small companies. But I don't research every company I send a resume to or fill out an application for. That would be a huge waste of time.
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@coliver said:
@IRJ said:
@thanksaj said:
I can almost guarantee that 19/20 candidates are applying simply because they feel they could do the job and don't really care what market it's in.Very true. Also I do zero research on a company unless I make it to the interview stage. Otherwise, its a waste of my time
I actually do research the company before applying. Mostly because of curiosity and general interest, I like to know what they make, who their clients are, etc... It is actually pretty cool to see how much is made in an area "local" to you. For instance I had no idea that Lockheed still had manufacturing up in Syracuse, NY until I applied to a position at that location.
I don't because I don't have to take the interview if I don't want to.
How many companies did you apply for when searching for a job? I have declined interviews before because I didnt like the company or manager's attitude.
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@IRJ said:
@coliver said:
@IRJ said:
@thanksaj said:
I can almost guarantee that 19/20 candidates are applying simply because they feel they could do the job and don't really care what market it's in.Very true. Also I do zero research on a company unless I make it to the interview stage. Otherwise, its a waste of my time
I actually do research the company before applying. Mostly because of curiosity and general interest, I like to know what they make, who their clients are, etc... It is actually pretty cool to see how much is made in an area "local" to you. For instance I had no idea that Lockheed still had manufacturing up in Syracuse, NY until I applied to a position at that location.
I don't because I don't have to take the interview if I don't want to.
How many companies did you apply for when searching for a job? I have declined interviews before because I didnt like the company or manager's attitude.
Not many, I had a job lined up but wanted to see what else was out there. Probably 9-12.
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@coliver said:
@IRJ said:
@coliver said:
@IRJ said:
@thanksaj said:
I can almost guarantee that 19/20 candidates are applying simply because they feel they could do the job and don't really care what market it's in.Very true. Also I do zero research on a company unless I make it to the interview stage. Otherwise, its a waste of my time
I actually do research the company before applying. Mostly because of curiosity and general interest, I like to know what they make, who their clients are, etc... It is actually pretty cool to see how much is made in an area "local" to you. For instance I had no idea that Lockheed still had manufacturing up in Syracuse, NY until I applied to a position at that location.
I don't because I don't have to take the interview if I don't want to.
How many companies did you apply for when searching for a job? I have declined interviews before because I didnt like the company or manager's attitude.
Not many, I had a job lined up but wanted to see what else was out there. Probably 9-12.
How many interviewed you?
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@thanksaj said:
You could put in the ad that you are looking for someone who wants to work both SMB and manufacturing, and I can almost guarantee that 19/20 candidates are applying simply because they feel they could do the job and don't really care what market it's in. Maybe some do prefer SMB to enterprise. But you're looking for something very specific, and it's far too easy to lie on a cover letter. I think we've all done it. "Why do you want to work for this company?" You can put any of 100 things there, and you have no way of knowing what's true and what's not.
Yes, but I was answering a specific point IRJ made that people can't be expected to be bothered writing a covering letter because there are so many IT jobs they can apply for. So my point is that my job is fairly unusual and so if it is the kind of thing that interests you, you might be happy to spend a few minutes writing a covering letter. The mere fact that they have bothered to write a covering letter at all might therefore indicate that they are genuinely interested in working for an SMB manufacturer. It's about sending the right signals.
@Carnival-Boy said:
@thanksaj said:
You could put in the ad that you are looking for someone who wants to work both SMB and manufacturing, and I can almost guarantee that 19/20 candidates are applying simply because they feel they could do the job and don't really care what market it's in. Maybe some do prefer SMB to enterprise. But you're looking for something very specific, and it's far too easy to lie on a cover letter. I think we've all done it. "Why do you want to work for this company?" You can put any of 100 things there, and you have no way of knowing what's true and what's not.
Yes, but I was answering a specific point IRJ made that people can't be expected to be bothered writing a covering letter because there are so many IT jobs they can apply for. So my point is that my job is fairly unusual and so if it is the kind of thing that interests you, you might be happy to spend a few minutes writing a covering letter. The mere fact that they have bothered to write a covering letter at all might therefore indicate that they are genuinely interested in working for an SMB manufacturer. It's about sending the right signals.
I think @thanksaj and @coliver did a good job addressing this point. Most people don't care what the company actually does. They apply for the position
