Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving
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This goes against the adage that you don't quit your job, you quit your boss. With a bad boss, even if they do offer more money, do you really want to stay?
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@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
This goes against the adage that you don't quit your job, you quit your boss. With a bad boss, even if they do offer more money, do you really want to stay?
I'd say, that's a bad adage. If you were going to quit your boss, you'd already have left. This isn't a change of boss, this is a change of responsibility. The idea that a good boss you work for at any price or any type of work doesn't hold up in the real world. Good bosses are important, but if that adage were true, we'd have no concept of careers.
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@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@EddieJennings said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
If the employee has zero desire to continue their employment at the company, would it not be a waste of everyone's time for the employee renegotiate the position? This is assuming there is no offering that would rekindle said desire.
If you truly believe that there aren't enough monies and benefits in the universe to convince you otherwise, no don't waste the time. But that's never really the situation. This is a job that you were okay with at a current salary today, but a change to that job tomorrow would make no salary good enough? While theoretically possible, it's not realistically plausible. This may happen once or twice in the whole of human history.
Perhaps, I'm missing the premise. If I'm in a gig that is deteriorating, and it has reached a point where I've decided it's time to leave, then yes, renegotiating a bad gig is a waste of time. Now if the deteriorating gig can actually be fixed, then yes, renegotiating would make sense.
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@EddieJennings said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@EddieJennings said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
If the employee has zero desire to continue their employment at the company, would it not be a waste of everyone's time for the employee renegotiate the position? This is assuming there is no offering that would rekindle said desire.
If you truly believe that there aren't enough monies and benefits in the universe to convince you otherwise, no don't waste the time. But that's never really the situation. This is a job that you were okay with at a current salary today, but a change to that job tomorrow would make no salary good enough? While theoretically possible, it's not realistically plausible. This may happen once or twice in the whole of human history.
Perhaps, I'm missing the premise. If I'm in a gig that is deteriorating, and it has reached a point where I've decided it's time to leave, then yes, renegotiating a bad gig is a waste of time. Now if the deteriorating gig can actually be fixed, then yes, renegotiating would make sense.
This is a gig that has a change of responsibility. Mostly likely, a promotion.
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@scottalanmiller Ah. I was operating on the premise that there is no upgrade of responsibility available.
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@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@EddieJennings said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
If the employee has zero desire to continue their employment at the company, would it not be a waste of everyone's time for the employee renegotiate the position? This is assuming there is no offering that would rekindle said desire.
If you truly believe that there aren't enough monies and benefits in the universe to convince you otherwise, no don't waste the time. But that's never really the situation. This is a job that you were okay with at a current salary today, but a change to that job tomorrow would make no salary good enough? While theoretically possible, it's not realistically plausible. This may happen once or twice in the whole of human history.
add one: I'm going to leave next year after a renegotiation last year. and for sure no one will pay me more. also, it is not sure I will quict with a new job agreement already in place.
anyway the main reason I've stayed another year here was not more money (even if they offer me and I accepted) but more time flexibility. I think that if money is "enough" better time is always the thing to attain.
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@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
This goes against the adage that you don't quit your job, you quit your boss. With a bad boss, even if they do offer more money, do you really want to stay?
This is why Google and Amazon (and I'm sure others) allow you to transfer managers at any time. If someone keeps losing employees it triggers some questions.
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@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
This is a gig that has a change of responsibility. Mostly likely, a promotion.
So the real reason for leaving isn't money, it's the desire for a promotion. Sometimes there are opportunities for promotion within the walls of the company where you are, and sometimes there are not. When I read your first post, I understood that there was an opportunity outside the walls, and things inside the walls were going down hill. Asking for more money to stay sounded like a bad idea.
What it sounds more like is asking for a promotion and being prepared to leave if you don't get it. Money doesn't come in to play.
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@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
This is a gig that has a change of responsibility. Mostly likely, a promotion.
So the real reason for leaving isn't money, it's the desire for a promotion. Sometimes there are opportunities for promotion within the walls of the company where you are, and sometimes there are not. When I read your first post, I understood that there was an opportunity outside the walls, and things inside the walls were going down hill. Asking for more money to stay sounded like a bad idea.
What it sounds more like is asking for a promotion and being prepared to leave if you don't get it. Money doesn't come in to play.
Yeah but that promotion will like drive a noticeable pay raise.
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@Dashrender said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
This is a gig that has a change of responsibility. Mostly likely, a promotion.
So the real reason for leaving isn't money, it's the desire for a promotion. Sometimes there are opportunities for promotion within the walls of the company where you are, and sometimes there are not. When I read your first post, I understood that there was an opportunity outside the walls, and things inside the walls were going down hill. Asking for more money to stay sounded like a bad idea.
What it sounds more like is asking for a promotion and being prepared to leave if you don't get it. Money doesn't come in to play.
Yeah but that promotion will like drive a noticeable pay raise.
The reason for leaving sounds as though the person is at a dead end job, with no opportunities to grow. The pay is negligible as its sounds like this person simply wants to advance (career wise).
I left my old job for the same reasons, it was a dead end. Not until I said I was leaving did management even attempt to offer me anything at all. Which they offered a promotion, and that team members would report to me and more money. I'd be a junior manager for the organization.
It was offered out of fear of loosing me. Which I don't want to be the guy driving the bus.
But it was to little to late. A valued employee should be spoken with (maybe during annual reviews) about where they want to see their career go, before the feeling of a dead-end job sets in.
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@DustinB3403 said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Dashrender said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
This is a gig that has a change of responsibility. Mostly likely, a promotion.
So the real reason for leaving isn't money, it's the desire for a promotion. Sometimes there are opportunities for promotion within the walls of the company where you are, and sometimes there are not. When I read your first post, I understood that there was an opportunity outside the walls, and things inside the walls were going down hill. Asking for more money to stay sounded like a bad idea.
What it sounds more like is asking for a promotion and being prepared to leave if you don't get it. Money doesn't come in to play.
Yeah but that promotion will like drive a noticeable pay raise.
The reason for leaving sounds as though the person is at a dead end job, with no opportunities to grow. The pay is negligible as its sounds like this person simply wants to advance (career wise).
I left my old job for the same reasons, it was a dead end. Not until I said I was leaving did management even attempt to offer me anything at all. Which they offered a promotion, and that team members would report to me.
But it was to little to late. A valued employee should be spoken with (maybe during annual reviews) about where they want to see their career go, before the feeling of a dead-end job sets in.
I am at the point in my career where I want to be, I think. I'm actively doing the work in the trenches. The only step up for me is management, which is the type of role I actively want to avoid. It may still happen, but I don't see that any time in the immediate future.
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If the place your at now, knows you are looking to leave / have received another offer and they counter with something just to keep you there, the job is a dead-end.
Unless they are offering a stupid amount of money and benefits to stay and essentially continue what you are doing I'd leave.
Putting a business feet to the fire isn't a good position to be in, especially if you feel the way I did about my last position. It'll likely come back to bite you.
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@dafyre said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@DustinB3403 said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Dashrender said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
This is a gig that has a change of responsibility. Mostly likely, a promotion.
So the real reason for leaving isn't money, it's the desire for a promotion. Sometimes there are opportunities for promotion within the walls of the company where you are, and sometimes there are not. When I read your first post, I understood that there was an opportunity outside the walls, and things inside the walls were going down hill. Asking for more money to stay sounded like a bad idea.
What it sounds more like is asking for a promotion and being prepared to leave if you don't get it. Money doesn't come in to play.
Yeah but that promotion will like drive a noticeable pay raise.
The reason for leaving sounds as though the person is at a dead end job, with no opportunities to grow. The pay is negligible as its sounds like this person simply wants to advance (career wise).
I left my old job for the same reasons, it was a dead end. Not until I said I was leaving did management even attempt to offer me anything at all. Which they offered a promotion, and that team members would report to me.
But it was to little to late. A valued employee should be spoken with (maybe during annual reviews) about where they want to see their career go, before the feeling of a dead-end job sets in.
I am at the point in my career where I want to be, I think. I'm actively doing the work in the trenches. The only step up for me is management, which is the type of role I actively want to avoid. It may still happen, but I don't see that any time in the immediate future.
I'm in the opposite boat, I want a management role with oversight and guidance. I've done trench work long enough, and have enough experience that I should be managing a team of people.
Determining growth paths, system projects etc.
I'll still "get my hands dirty" if the need arises. I have no issue at all doing it. But career growth is a critical item for me. Being stagnant, you might as well just shackle me to a floor.
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I should rephrase that last bit.
I feel I have enough experience to manage a team.
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@dafyre said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
I am at the point in my career where I want to be, I think. I'm actively doing the work in the trenches. The only step up for me is management, which is the type of role I actively want to avoid. It may still happen, but I don't see that any time in the immediate future.
It's pretty sad that people with tech skills only see their next step as moving to management. There is nothing wrong with doing what you do really well. I have seen companies where someone is great at their job so the company promotes them to management - which requires different skills - and the person fails. (The Peter principle)
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@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@dafyre said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
I am at the point in my career where I want to be, I think. I'm actively doing the work in the trenches. The only step up for me is management, which is the type of role I actively want to avoid. It may still happen, but I don't see that any time in the immediate future.
It's pretty sad that people with tech skills only see their next step as moving to management. There is nothing wrong with doing what you do really well. I have seen companies where someone is great at their job so the company promotes them to management - which requires different skills - and the person fails. (The Peter principle)
Is it sad if the person wants that experience? I'd see it as an opportunity personally.
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@DustinB3403 said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@dafyre said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
I am at the point in my career where I want to be, I think. I'm actively doing the work in the trenches. The only step up for me is management, which is the type of role I actively want to avoid. It may still happen, but I don't see that any time in the immediate future.
It's pretty sad that people with tech skills only see their next step as moving to management. There is nothing wrong with doing what you do really well. I have seen companies where someone is great at their job so the company promotes them to management - which requires different skills - and the person fails. (The Peter principle)
Is it sad if the person wants that experience? I'd see it as an opportunity personally.
I'm sure he was talking about @dafyre
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@Dashrender said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
Is it sad if the person wants that experience? I'd see it as an opportunity personally.
I'm sure he was talking about @dafyre
yes.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to get in to management or anything else. You should always be asking "Where do I want to be 3 years from now and what do I need to do today to get there?"
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@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@dafyre said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
I am at the point in my career where I want to be, I think. I'm actively doing the work in the trenches. The only step up for me is management, which is the type of role I actively want to avoid. It may still happen, but I don't see that any time in the immediate future.
It's pretty sad that people with tech skills only see their next step as moving to management. There is nothing wrong with doing what you do really well. I have seen companies where someone is great at their job so the company promotes them to management - which requires different skills - and the person fails. (The Peter principle)
It's worse when the company sees that as the only option.
Really those companies probably need a few different tech levels to handle this. If they really need a title change to pay them more money, then make current title level 2, level 3, etc.Of course there is a maximum amount of money that a position is worth to a company, and if you feel that your have more value than that, you must find other opportunities.
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@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
It's pretty sad that people with tech skills only see their next step as moving to management.
I see the only step UP as management. Anything else that keeps me in the trenches, in my mind, is a lateral move.
