Pronunciations of SQL Derived Database Names and Terms
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@NerdyDad said in What is a Database Management System:
Going back to my college classes and pulled the book from my database class. SQL (Second Edition)
Visual QuickStart Guide by Chris Fehily (2nd ed.) page xv "SQL isn't pronounced sequel; that pronunciation is a historical artifact. Avoid the error and articulate each letter: S-Q-L. m I disagree with people who claim that saying sequel is so common that nothing's wrong with it. You shouldn't say sequel for the same reason that you shouldn't split infinitives in your novel; it generally may be accepted, but it will rasp on the ears of knowledgeable people. Also, pronounce MySQL as my-es-kyoo-el and PostgreSQL as post-gres-kyoo-el (particularly if you are in a job interview)."So let me ask you, even though I mostly agree with his points (ISO SQL is S-Q-L, but "historical artefact" of a name seems an odd way to describe "changing the name") and he definitely gets ISO SQL, MySQL and PostgreSQL correct.... why would you trust that one book over Wikipedia?
That book is from an exceptionally low end publisher (I like their stuff, but let's be honest, Peachpit was very... novice.) Writers for those books are generally decent, but it's a low paying job and reflects the opinion of a single person. The publisher does not check the material. Generally there are one or two peer reviewers that are paid almost nothing. They try to review the material but tend to focus on the meat and have almost no time to verify anything else. And in many of these books there is literally no review whatsoever. You will find this old books loaded with typos, broken examples and information that is clearly not applicable and copied from some other source.
And as a printed book, errata found later cannot be edited. So it is a point in time snapshot of one person's opinion that may or may not have been reviewed by one or a few additional people.
And you feel that that should be taken with a grain of salt compared to a living, continuously reviewed document that has thousands of people reviewing it not just initially, but regularly? It's not even in the same ballpark.
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@NerdyDad said in What is a Database Management System:
Visual QuickStart Guide by Chris Fehily (2nd ed.)](http://www.fehily.com/books/sql_vqs_2.html) page xv *"SQL isn't pronounced sequel; that pronunciation is a historical artifact. Avoid the error and articulate each letter: S-Q-L.
If you want to really look at accuracy. SQL is "sequel". Someone reading a book on SQL in 1985 should not be retroactively considered "wrong" because some people thought it would be cool to change pronunciation in 1987, right? That wouldn't make sense.
Now what I was taught, and now we are getting even deeper into pedantic, is that SQL-92 is "S Q L 92", because that's the actual ISO now, whereas SQL is the older name. But SQL is from 1974 and it's name isn't a "histoic artefact". I don't know what he's trying to imply with that.
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I think the source of the printed book problem comes from some weird corruption that use to exist in the education system. As a kid, I know that I was taught that just because a publisher stated something (e.g. big business promoted it) that it therefore was "truth" and that anything said otherwise (e.g. by individuals rather than a corporation) was not "valid." I don't know how or when such backwards and unethical things go into the education system, but it was so common that even in universities today you see professors caring more about the size of the corporation providing information than the accuracy of the source. It's similar to the vendor problems we see in IT - people often think that listening to a vendor who has a commercial agenda to direct them in a specific direction is more valid than logic, research or experience from IT pros.
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I remember this excerpt from back then and felt that he was on a little tirade for semantics and felt that it was a little bit unnecessary for what was needed. He should have just put "Its pronounced S-Q-L and not sequel." and left it at that instead of having a whole paragraph about how it makes him all upset because of pronunciation.
It would be like somebody calling TCP/IP a protocol in and of itself instead of an entire suite of protocols. This should be obvious to us to dig deeper into this if necessary, but I'm not going to go on a tirade explaining WHY it needs to be called a suite instead of just a protocol.
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@NerdyDad said in What is a Database Management System:
I remember this excerpt from back then and felt that he was on a little tirade for semantics and felt that it was a little bit unnecessary for what was needed. He should have just put "Its pronounced S-Q-L and not sequel." and left it at that instead of having a whole paragraph about how it makes him all upset because of pronunciation.
It would be like somebody calling TCP/IP a protocol in and of itself instead of an entire suite of protocols. This should be obvious to us to dig deeper into this if necessary, but I'm not going to go on a tirade explaining WHY it needs to be called a suite instead of just a protocol.
I know a few people that are in the S.Q.L. camp for any version. but everyone else i know jsut says sequel.
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As far as wikipedia is concerned, I was not allowed to use it as a reference for any of my papers or it would not be considered a reference and that was the reasoning from the school. This was also 10 years ago too. Times change, and so might wikipedia now.
I didn't look into it too much deeper as I was just a fledgling college student with no credibility yet and so, no point on fighting about it. It was their rule, I simply obeyed it and carried it with me as a rule afterwards.
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@JaredBusch said in What is a Database Management System:
@NerdyDad said in What is a Database Management System:
I remember this excerpt from back then and felt that he was on a little tirade for semantics and felt that it was a little bit unnecessary for what was needed. He should have just put "Its pronounced S-Q-L and not sequel." and left it at that instead of having a whole paragraph about how it makes him all upset because of pronunciation.
It would be like somebody calling TCP/IP a protocol in and of itself instead of an entire suite of protocols. This should be obvious to us to dig deeper into this if necessary, but I'm not going to go on a tirade explaining WHY it needs to be called a suite instead of just a protocol.
I know a few people that are in the S.Q.L. camp for any version. but everyone else i know jsut says sequel.
I don't care how you say it, I'm going to know what you are talking about anyways.
I am from Texas and we say ain't around here these parts. Now GEET OFF MY LAWN! GEET.
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@NerdyDad said in What is a Database Management System:
As far as wikipedia is concerned, I was not allowed to use it as a reference for any of my papers or it would not be considered a reference and that was the reasoning from the school.
That's because it is not a SOURCE, it is a reference to other sources. It's not an original document. That's a different issue and more or less acceptable. But nothing is really a source that is accepted.
The real issue is that Wikipedia is so complete and easy that you could do anything with it and not need to research any further.
If the school explains that, that's legit and I know no school that takes Wikipedia. But if they claim that it isn't a source because it can be edited, that's BS.
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@NerdyDad said in What is a Database Management System:
It was their rule, I simply obeyed it and carried it with me as a rule afterwards.
Even in graduate work I've gone to the dean and challenged using myself as a source and won
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@scottalanmiller said in What is a Database Management System:
@NerdyDad said in What is a Database Management System:
First of all, I try very hard to never refer to Wikipedia as actual facts as anybody can change wikipedia at any moment in time. If I were to ever use wikipedia, then it would be just to familiarize myself with a particular subject.
That's not actually good logic. First of all, not just anyone can change it, it doesn't quite work that way. Second, changes trigger notifications to people, immediately. There are a lot of protections in place. Third, it is heavily peer reviewed, the most reviewed source there has ever been. Fourth, in research tests, it is the most accurate reference material of its type.
Using "anyone can change it at any time" is like evaluating RAID by saying "RAID 5 can survive ANY drive failure, therefore it's great!" This looks at one "under the hood detail" and misses the big picture. RAID 10 is more reliable than RAID 5, because of the resulting reliability. And Wikipedia is more accurate than any other similar reference because of resulting accuracy. Does that mean that you always trust it, no. Does it mean that you trust it more than other sources, yes. If you don't have faith in something peer reviewed and monitored, you should have less faith in everything else. Question everything? Of course. But never act like Wikipedia isn't among the most reliable and accurate sources that you can have. Nothing is always right, but nothing has the checks that WP has, either.
Just anyone most certainly could change it. Completely anonymously (tied to IP only) at that.
Today many articles are now "protected" to varying levels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Protection_policy
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Self referencing is actually a handy trick in college. Find a way to get yourself published and you can create your own sources because it is often the "publisher" aspect that they respect. It takes a bit of work, so it's not like a panacea, but there are times that it can come in pretty handy.
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@scottalanmiller said in What is a Database Management System:
@NerdyDad said in What is a Database Management System:
It was their rule, I simply obeyed it and carried it with me as a rule afterwards.
Even in graduate work I've gone to the dean and challenged using myself as a source and won
But how many others would take the time to batter the dean with semantics like you did until he just gave in? Very few.....
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@RojoLoco said in What is a Database Management System:
@scottalanmiller said in What is a Database Management System:
@NerdyDad said in What is a Database Management System:
It was their rule, I simply obeyed it and carried it with me as a rule afterwards.
Even in graduate work I've gone to the dean and challenged using myself as a source and won
But how many others would take the time to batter the dean with semantics like you did until he just gave in? Very few.....
This comes to mind...
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@RojoLoco said in What is a Database Management System:
@scottalanmiller said in What is a Database Management System:
@NerdyDad said in What is a Database Management System:
It was their rule, I simply obeyed it and carried it with me as a rule afterwards.
Even in graduate work I've gone to the dean and challenged using myself as a source and won
But how many others would take the time to batter the dean with semantics like you did until he just gave in? Very few.....
Cuz they be lazy
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@Dashrender said in What is a Database Management System:
@NerdyDad said in What is a Database Management System:
As far as wikipedia is concerned, I was not allowed to use it as a reference for any of my papers or it would not be considered a reference and that was the reasoning from the school. This was also 10 years ago too. Times change, and so might wikipedia now.
I didn't look into it too much deeper as I was just a fledgling college student with no credibility yet and so, no point on fighting about it. It was their rule, I simply obeyed it and carried it with me as a rule afterwards.
Still true here today, FYI.
The real question is how many teachers or professors know why or can give a valid reason for it. Most that I've heard resort to "being paid" makes things valid and "free" makes things invalid. Which would mean that they fundamentally don't believe in academia but believe that commercial interests trump education.
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MS SQL Server is pronounced "MS Sequel" for what it is worth. Looked that one up to see and while they don't publish an official record stance "sequel" is how MS pronounces it internally.
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@scottalanmiller said in What is a Database Management System:
@RojoLoco said in What is a Database Management System:
@scottalanmiller said in What is a Database Management System:
@NerdyDad said in What is a Database Management System:
It was their rule, I simply obeyed it and carried it with me as a rule afterwards.
Even in graduate work I've gone to the dean and challenged using myself as a source and won
But how many others would take the time to batter the dean with semantics like you did until he just gave in? Very few.....
Cuz they be lazy
So, if it's no longer (for a VERY long time now) “Structured English Query Language” (SEQUEL), and has been, and is officially, “Structured Query Language” (SQL), where do you get the "sequel" pronunciation from now? I think if that is the case, nobody should use new product names if they have been changed in the past.
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@Tim_G said in What is a Database Management System:
@scottalanmiller said in What is a Database Management System:
@RojoLoco said in What is a Database Management System:
@scottalanmiller said in What is a Database Management System:
@NerdyDad said in What is a Database Management System:
It was their rule, I simply obeyed it and carried it with me as a rule afterwards.
Even in graduate work I've gone to the dean and challenged using myself as a source and won
But how many others would take the time to batter the dean with semantics like you did until he just gave in? Very few.....
Cuz they be lazy
So, if it's no longer (for a VERY long time now) “Structured English Query Language” (SEQUEL), and has been, and is officially, “Structured Query Language” (SQL), where do you get the "sequel" pronunciation from now? I think if that is the case, nobody should use new product names if they have been changed in the past.
SEQUEL was abbreviated to SQL due to copyright issues. SQL's official pronunciation was "sequel" before and after the change of characters in the name (they just dropped the vowels.) The official pronunciation of SQL was "sequel"... that's where I get the pronunciation, from the official pronunciation of the language at the time of its creation and at the time of its naming (with the current SQL name.)
Later, a standard's body decided that they would make it officially S-Q-L. But the language already existed and it already had a name. Just because ISO wants ISO SQL to be called S-Q-L does not go back in history and change the name of the language, because it is already named.
Imagine in 1985 that you were a SQL (sequel) programmer and had been for years. Then one day you are told "well, it is 1987 now and that thing you've been working on for a decade is not sequel but s-q-l".... what does that really mean? That you were wrong in the past? That without changing anything what you use has changed? It's conceptually a problematic thing to change the name of a thing that is already named, especially when you are talking about the historic thing and not something new. That SQL-92 was always "S-Q-L 92" is obvious and clear that ISO was in charge of that. But SQL the language from 1974 is set in stone, so to speak, and can't just be changed around at the whim of a third party.
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@Tim_G said in What is a Database Management System:
So, if it's no longer (for a VERY long time now) “Structured English Query Language” (SEQUEL), and has been, and is officially, “Structured Query Language” (SQL), where do you get the "sequel" pronunciation from now?
When talking about SQL generically, it encompasses all SQL family members, including SQL that goes back to 1974 and variations that are not ANSI or ISO compliant. I think that that is an important understanding here. In one case, calling ISO SQL by ISO's guideline, is fine because that is ISO's to define. But calling all SQL by that name is revisionist and changes history by saying that the name that existed officially is not correct and would require that even the creator and vendor that named it in the first place be wrong retroactively, if that makes sense.
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Yeah I've always said sequel because that's how I learned it, not because I was aware of its original naming history.
Now that I do know, it just makes more sense to call it SQL instead of SEQUEL.
Maybe the creators should have checked existing names and been more clear about it before they called it that. Seems to me like they were well aware of the naming conflict but did it anyways for the pun and laughs.
I wouldn't be allowed to create a phone device and call it a Crapple because of a cranberry-apple theme or whatever. I'm sure Apple would would have a field day.
