Pronunciations of SQL Derived Database Names and Terms
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@RojoLoco said in What is a Database Management System:
@scottalanmiller said in What is a Database Management System:
@NerdyDad said in What is a Database Management System:
It was their rule, I simply obeyed it and carried it with me as a rule afterwards.
Even in graduate work I've gone to the dean and challenged using myself as a source and won
But how many others would take the time to batter the dean with semantics like you did until he just gave in? Very few.....
This comes to mind...
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@RojoLoco said in What is a Database Management System:
@scottalanmiller said in What is a Database Management System:
@NerdyDad said in What is a Database Management System:
It was their rule, I simply obeyed it and carried it with me as a rule afterwards.
Even in graduate work I've gone to the dean and challenged using myself as a source and won
But how many others would take the time to batter the dean with semantics like you did until he just gave in? Very few.....
Cuz they be lazy
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@Dashrender said in What is a Database Management System:
@NerdyDad said in What is a Database Management System:
As far as wikipedia is concerned, I was not allowed to use it as a reference for any of my papers or it would not be considered a reference and that was the reasoning from the school. This was also 10 years ago too. Times change, and so might wikipedia now.
I didn't look into it too much deeper as I was just a fledgling college student with no credibility yet and so, no point on fighting about it. It was their rule, I simply obeyed it and carried it with me as a rule afterwards.
Still true here today, FYI.
The real question is how many teachers or professors know why or can give a valid reason for it. Most that I've heard resort to "being paid" makes things valid and "free" makes things invalid. Which would mean that they fundamentally don't believe in academia but believe that commercial interests trump education.
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MS SQL Server is pronounced "MS Sequel" for what it is worth. Looked that one up to see and while they don't publish an official record stance "sequel" is how MS pronounces it internally.
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@scottalanmiller said in What is a Database Management System:
@RojoLoco said in What is a Database Management System:
@scottalanmiller said in What is a Database Management System:
@NerdyDad said in What is a Database Management System:
It was their rule, I simply obeyed it and carried it with me as a rule afterwards.
Even in graduate work I've gone to the dean and challenged using myself as a source and won
But how many others would take the time to batter the dean with semantics like you did until he just gave in? Very few.....
Cuz they be lazy
So, if it's no longer (for a VERY long time now) “Structured English Query Language” (SEQUEL), and has been, and is officially, “Structured Query Language” (SQL), where do you get the "sequel" pronunciation from now? I think if that is the case, nobody should use new product names if they have been changed in the past.
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@Tim_G said in What is a Database Management System:
@scottalanmiller said in What is a Database Management System:
@RojoLoco said in What is a Database Management System:
@scottalanmiller said in What is a Database Management System:
@NerdyDad said in What is a Database Management System:
It was their rule, I simply obeyed it and carried it with me as a rule afterwards.
Even in graduate work I've gone to the dean and challenged using myself as a source and won
But how many others would take the time to batter the dean with semantics like you did until he just gave in? Very few.....
Cuz they be lazy
So, if it's no longer (for a VERY long time now) “Structured English Query Language” (SEQUEL), and has been, and is officially, “Structured Query Language” (SQL), where do you get the "sequel" pronunciation from now? I think if that is the case, nobody should use new product names if they have been changed in the past.
SEQUEL was abbreviated to SQL due to copyright issues. SQL's official pronunciation was "sequel" before and after the change of characters in the name (they just dropped the vowels.) The official pronunciation of SQL was "sequel"... that's where I get the pronunciation, from the official pronunciation of the language at the time of its creation and at the time of its naming (with the current SQL name.)
Later, a standard's body decided that they would make it officially S-Q-L. But the language already existed and it already had a name. Just because ISO wants ISO SQL to be called S-Q-L does not go back in history and change the name of the language, because it is already named.
Imagine in 1985 that you were a SQL (sequel) programmer and had been for years. Then one day you are told "well, it is 1987 now and that thing you've been working on for a decade is not sequel but s-q-l".... what does that really mean? That you were wrong in the past? That without changing anything what you use has changed? It's conceptually a problematic thing to change the name of a thing that is already named, especially when you are talking about the historic thing and not something new. That SQL-92 was always "S-Q-L 92" is obvious and clear that ISO was in charge of that. But SQL the language from 1974 is set in stone, so to speak, and can't just be changed around at the whim of a third party.
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@Tim_G said in What is a Database Management System:
So, if it's no longer (for a VERY long time now) “Structured English Query Language” (SEQUEL), and has been, and is officially, “Structured Query Language” (SQL), where do you get the "sequel" pronunciation from now?
When talking about SQL generically, it encompasses all SQL family members, including SQL that goes back to 1974 and variations that are not ANSI or ISO compliant. I think that that is an important understanding here. In one case, calling ISO SQL by ISO's guideline, is fine because that is ISO's to define. But calling all SQL by that name is revisionist and changes history by saying that the name that existed officially is not correct and would require that even the creator and vendor that named it in the first place be wrong retroactively, if that makes sense.
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Yeah I've always said sequel because that's how I learned it, not because I was aware of its original naming history.
Now that I do know, it just makes more sense to call it SQL instead of SEQUEL.
Maybe the creators should have checked existing names and been more clear about it before they called it that. Seems to me like they were well aware of the naming conflict but did it anyways for the pun and laughs.
I wouldn't be allowed to create a phone device and call it a Crapple because of a cranberry-apple theme or whatever. I'm sure Apple would would have a field day.
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Screw Wikipedia, there's only one way to determine the correct pronunciation - next time I see her, I'm going to ask the Queen how she pronounces it.
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@Tim_G said in What is a Database Management System:
Yeah I've always said sequel because that's how I learned it, not because I was aware of its original naming history.
Now that I do know, it just makes more sense to call it SQL instead of SEQUEL.
But when spelled SQL it was still called "sequel". So I don't follow the logic of why we would call it something else today, when SQL originally was pronounced "sequel." The copyright conflict is purely with the spelling, not the pronunciation, so that didn't change.
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@scottalanmiller just to be an ass this morning, you never acknowledged your mistaken statement on Wikipedia editing.
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@JaredBusch said in Pronunciations of SQL Derived Database Names and Terms:
@scottalanmiller just to be an ass this morning, you never acknowledged your mistaken statement on Wikipedia editing.
Sorry, never saw it and can barely see it now (took five minutes with the stupid Internet going up and down.) So anyone can edit now? I've tried in the past and it didn't let me. It always required all these hoops. Maybe it has changed. But I certainly have tried edits before and not been able to do so.
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@scottalanmiller said in Pronunciations of SQL Derived Database Names and Terms:
@JaredBusch said in Pronunciations of SQL Derived Database Names and Terms:
@scottalanmiller just to be an ass this morning, you never acknowledged your mistaken statement on Wikipedia editing.
Sorry, never saw it and can barely see it now (took five minutes with the stupid Internet going up and down.) So anyone can edit now? I've tried in the past and it didn't let me. It always required all these hoops. Maybe it has changed. But I certainly have tried edits before and not been able to do so.
It has been that way from the beginning. 100% open and unrestricted. Security was added later by protecting pages.
You were able to have an account from the beginning also to have credit for your edits. but it has always been optional.
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@JaredBusch said in Pronunciations of SQL Derived Database Names and Terms:
@scottalanmiller said in Pronunciations of SQL Derived Database Names and Terms:
@JaredBusch said in Pronunciations of SQL Derived Database Names and Terms:
@scottalanmiller just to be an ass this morning, you never acknowledged your mistaken statement on Wikipedia editing.
Sorry, never saw it and can barely see it now (took five minutes with the stupid Internet going up and down.) So anyone can edit now? I've tried in the past and it didn't let me. It always required all these hoops. Maybe it has changed. But I certainly have tried edits before and not been able to do so.
It has been that way from the beginning. 100% open and unrestricted. Security was added later by protecting pages.
You were able to have an account from the beginning also to have credit for your edits. but it has always been optional.
Maybe I only tried a locked page? I definitely edited stuff long ago. But then it seemed to be restrictive and not work the effort so I stopped.
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@scottalanmiller said in Pronunciations of SQL Derived Database Names and Terms:
The copyright conflict is purely with the spelling, not the pronunciation, so that didn't change.
I totally get it, and it makes complete sense when you look at it like that. Sure, it was originally SEQUEL (name, spelling, and pronunciation), so you still call it that even though that's not its name anymore. And you make strong points.
In the English language, the letters of a word and their ordering dictate the pronunciation. In this case, the abbreviation would be the 'word'.
For a long time now, it's been Structured Query Language, abbreviated: SQL. It's the successor of just Query Language (QUEL).
Structured 'English' Query Language (SEQUEL) just straight up does not exist. You are calling something by a name that does not exist, be it due to legal reasons or otherwise doesn't matter. The name changed, the abbreviation changed, therefore, the pronunciation changed as well. To say "SEQUEL", is to say it's Structured ENGLISH query language, which it is no longer. If you said SQUEL, you'd still be incorrect because that's not the abbreviation.
@scottalanmiller said in Pronunciations of SQL Derived Database Names and Terms:
But when spelled SQL it was still called "sequel". So I don't follow the logic of why we would call it something else today, when SQL originally was pronounced "sequel."
The logic is quite simple: It was once SEQUEL, but is no longer. The product name has changed to SQL.
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@Tim_G said in Pronunciations of SQL Derived Database Names and Terms:
The logic is quite simple: It was once SEQUEL, but is no longer. The product name has changed to SQL.
Absolutely, no question there. The issue is that when the name was changed to SQL the pronunciation of SQL was determined to be "sequel". That it changed how the name was written is never in dispute. But SQL's official pronunciation was "sequel." Not S-Q-L. So that the official name is written SQL and has not changed, we'd expect that the pronunciation would not have changed either as there was nothing to prompt it changing.
Talking about the spelling change from SEQUEL to SQL would only be relevant if we were proposing that the pronunciation changed with it, which would be logical. But it did not. The proposed revision to the pronunciation by a third party was not for a very long time. So the SEQUEL to SQL respelling is historically interesting, but disconnected from the pronunciation.
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@scottalanmiller said in Pronunciations of SQL Derived Database Names and Terms:
PostgreSQL is pronounced "Post - Gres - Q - L". It's a weird name, what can we say.
Then why the hell is the S capitalized? That's dumb.
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I dont even try with postgresql, i just say psql since that is the command used to do things with it.
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@wirestyle22 said in Pronunciations of SQL Derived Database Names and Terms:
@scottalanmiller said in Pronunciations of SQL Derived Database Names and Terms:
PostgreSQL is pronounced "Post - Gres - Q - L". It's a weird name, what can we say.
Then why the hell is the S capitalized? That's dumb.
It's capitalized, not separated by a period.
If you look at AetherStore you don't call it A-ether-S-tore, right? Capitalization doesn't prompt calling out the letters, it signifies the break between the root words. If it was Postgre.S.Q.L then we'd think that we'd pronounce each letter based on that standard.
