Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@IRJ said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
AH!! This summarizes the entire objection. You guys think the use of affiliates means a person is "chasing", perhaps obsessively, for pennies to screw over clients where the actual money is.
I've been fighting this whole time against this idea. The affiliate thing changes NOTHING. I and probably no one else whose though about this have any intention of screwing their clients and their "pounds$$" over pennies.
Your assumption is that this is exactly what we do. I don't know what else to say. The pennies are literally bonus money on the sidewalk. Just bend over. It's really not hard.
While you might never succumb to this, most others have. Especially when they realize their is a ton more to be made by getting paid by the vendor instead of getting paid by the client.
Good Example of this - Angry Birds. When it was first released, the developers sold it on the iPhone for something like $1.99. This was good for the vendor and good for the customer. But along came Android, where the developers discovered they could make 10X that money, not only once, but continuously by giving the game away and putting ads in the game. Now at first this looks like a win for everyone, but of course we know it's not. Instead the customer is totally taking a loss here. They are now having data collected on them, their internet bandwidth is being used (something the customer pays for) and the consumer is being bothered by something they don't want and didn't ask for - an ad.
Given the choice I will always choose to pay for an app instead of having it ad supported - of course only assuming the ad crap/spying, etc is gone in the paid version.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
They have zero say in the final analysis. I don't send them the estimates and invoices, they don't send me anything. If their product happens to be the right solution, then a bonus is there.
Here's a question - Why do you deserve the bonus? You did a job, you were paid for that job - consulting fee. Why do you deserve a bonus for doing that job? Why doesn't the client deserve a discount instead?
Excellent question.
In previous jobs for some residential clients or non-profits I literally gave them extra discount for using the affiliates.
Don't misunderstand me, I literally have 3 affiliates to my name. Amazon, InMotion, and I think VULTR. I signed up BECAUSE I love them, not because of wanting the most kickbacks. I only think of it as free money. But obviously this raises a lot of ethical questions for people.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
It's a car salesmen JOB to earn commission, it's their bread and butter, it's what they DO.
Exactly, just like you. They are Chevy affiliates. They don't "have" to sell a car, but they only get paid when they do.
Wrong. It's NOT my "job" to sell affiliate things. It's my job to do what a client wants. Period.
If you cannot get past this concept, we're done. Affiliates links don't make me beholden to a company in the least, not whatsoever. Why in the living hell would I bend over backwards for the $20 affiliate and screw over the $500 from the client by giving them twisted advice?
My only goal is do good for the client. I want their business, I want their repeat business, I want their recommendations and word of mouth, I want their good testimonial, and I want my solutions to work over and above their expectations.Then do the even better thing - tell that customer - hey as an FYI, if you buy this chevy, chevy is sending me $20 - just an FYI. Why don't you want to do that?
You assume I don't?
I'm fighting the idea that BECAUSE Chevy has a $20 kickback, I'm therefore utterly blinded by, controlled by and mindlessly obsessed with promoting, pushing their vehicles ONLY above everything else. Chasing pennies, in other words. And further that I should literally change my entire business model to be the "Chevy VAR" company who comes to your business to push only Chevys.
It's fine if you want to have that view of human nature, I'm just saying it's not me.
But I don't know you - so why should I trust you? This is not a personal question to you specifically, it's a question I put out to anyone trying to sell me anything.
Remember - we are primarily talking about engagements where you are specifically PAID to give an opinion. In that situation, it is unethical to get a kickback for something you suggest.
If, some smoe on the street asks your opinion - there's no expectation of a payday for said advice - fine use the affiliate links. But then the question is.. would you give the non paying links vs the links in the case where you are not paid to give this advice - again, you personally might not, but human nature is what it is.. and if you can get $20 for some 'free advice" and the printers are nearly the same and hell, the customer won't care know in the end.. fine - that's what sales guys do every single day. and that's fine, that's what's expected of them.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
They have zero say in the final analysis. I don't send them the estimates and invoices, they don't send me anything. If their product happens to be the right solution, then a bonus is there.
Here's a question - Why do you deserve the bonus? You did a job, you were paid for that job - consulting fee. Why do you deserve a bonus for doing that job? Why doesn't the client deserve a discount instead?
Excellent question.
In previous jobs for some residential clients or non-profits I literally gave them extra discount for using the affiliates.
Don't misunderstand me, I literally have 3 affiliates to my name. Amazon, InMotion, and I think VULTR. I signed up BECAUSE I love them, not because of wanting the most kickbacks. I only think of it as free money. But obviously this raises a lot of ethical questions for people.
Again, this isn't about you - this is more - would some stranger think you're taking advantage of them... if they paid you $50 for an opinion, and if they buy a product on your opinion list you get affiliate kickback money - will they be OK with that? it's about what the other guy thinks.. not what you think.
Hell I think the "for Dummy's" series is a horrible name the first time I saw those I thought it would tank.. what the hell do I know? Look around today, there are dozens of 'for Dummy's' books, clearly other people thought the name was catchy, and it worked.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
They have zero say in the final analysis. I don't send them the estimates and invoices, they don't send me anything. If their product happens to be the right solution, then a bonus is there.
Here's a question - Why do you deserve the bonus? You did a job, you were paid for that job - consulting fee. Why do you deserve a bonus for doing that job? Why doesn't the client deserve a discount instead?
Excellent question.
In previous jobs for some residential clients or non-profits I literally gave them extra discount for using the affiliates.
Don't misunderstand me, I literally have 3 affiliates to my name. Amazon, InMotion, and I think VULTR. I signed up BECAUSE I love them, not because of wanting the most kickbacks. I only think of it as free money. But obviously this raises a lot of ethical questions for people.
Again, this isn't about you - this is more - would some stranger think you're taking advantage of them... if they paid you $50 for an opinion, and if they buy a product on your opinion list you get affiliate kickback money - will they be OK with that? it's about what the other guy thinks.. not what you think.
Hell I think the "for Dummy's" series is a horrible name the first time I saw those I thought it would tank.. what the hell do I know? Look around today, there are dozens of 'for Dummy's' books, clearly other people thought the name was catchy, and it worked.
If somebody says my service is $250, but if you buy from Amazon, I will only charge $235 sounds really sketchy to me.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
They have zero say in the final analysis. I don't send them the estimates and invoices, they don't send me anything. If their product happens to be the right solution, then a bonus is there.
Here's a question - Why do you deserve the bonus? You did a job, you were paid for that job - consulting fee. Why do you deserve a bonus for doing that job? Why doesn't the client deserve a discount instead?
Excellent question.
In previous jobs for some residential clients or non-profits I literally gave them extra discount for using the affiliates.
Don't misunderstand me, I literally have 3 affiliates to my name. Amazon, InMotion, and I think VULTR. I signed up BECAUSE I love them, not because of wanting the most kickbacks. I only think of it as free money. But obviously this raises a lot of ethical questions for people.
Again, this isn't about you - this is more - would some stranger think you're taking advantage of them... if they paid you $50 for an opinion, and if they buy a product on your opinion list you get affiliate kickback money - will they be OK with that? it's about what the other guy thinks.. not what you think.
Hell I think the "for Dummy's" series is a horrible name the first time I saw those I thought it would tank.. what the hell do I know? Look around today, there are dozens of 'for Dummy's' books, clearly other people thought the name was catchy, and it worked.
Considering almost the entire "free" internet works off the affiliate/ad model, people are more and more getting used to the idea that "if I give you this link, it's probably an affiliate". Everybody trying to make money online is hooked up to Amazon, Clickbank, Ratuken, et al.
Some people hold the absolute idea that affiliate means bias and scam. Advice cannot be pure, it cannot be unbiased or objective.
Some people have moved on and just find it part of normal life. Most people actually provide their advice and knowledge for free, so using affiliates for everything is their only form of payment.So is the horse before the cart? Or not? Are people corrupt and unavoidably biased when they use affiliates, or can be be pure and objective but still use the affiliate as a means of extra payment or bonus?
It is correct, we don't know each other, you don't really "know" the consultant you just hired. So do you ask them before any work is done, "if you are on commissions or use affiliates, I can't work with you?"
It's the same thing, you don't know them, so find out. Or DON'T find out, and put blind trust that they are objective.Scott suggested that there is a legal issue involved. If a client "finds out" they had purchased something which came from the consultant and happened to be affiliate, what law is being broken? The consultant didn't reveal it, but the client didn't ask.
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@IRJ said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
They have zero say in the final analysis. I don't send them the estimates and invoices, they don't send me anything. If their product happens to be the right solution, then a bonus is there.
Here's a question - Why do you deserve the bonus? You did a job, you were paid for that job - consulting fee. Why do you deserve a bonus for doing that job? Why doesn't the client deserve a discount instead?
Excellent question.
In previous jobs for some residential clients or non-profits I literally gave them extra discount for using the affiliates.
Don't misunderstand me, I literally have 3 affiliates to my name. Amazon, InMotion, and I think VULTR. I signed up BECAUSE I love them, not because of wanting the most kickbacks. I only think of it as free money. But obviously this raises a lot of ethical questions for people.
Again, this isn't about you - this is more - would some stranger think you're taking advantage of them... if they paid you $50 for an opinion, and if they buy a product on your opinion list you get affiliate kickback money - will they be OK with that? it's about what the other guy thinks.. not what you think.
Hell I think the "for Dummy's" series is a horrible name the first time I saw those I thought it would tank.. what the hell do I know? Look around today, there are dozens of 'for Dummy's' books, clearly other people thought the name was catchy, and it worked.
If somebody says my service is $250, but if you buy from Amazon, I will only charge $235 sounds really sketchy to me.
Haha yeah, but surprisingly, not for some people whose eyes glaze over at the thought of saving $15 bucks. Especially a non-profit. They still use Win XP on computers taken from Good Will.
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@Dashrender said
Then do the even better thing - tell that customer - hey as an FYI, if you buy this chevy, chevy is sending me $20 - just an FYI. Why don't you want to do that?
Because then the client would want that.
Is the argument here just to charge more up front for consulting, and ditch the reseller fees?
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Considering almost the entire "free" internet works off the affiliate/ad model, people are more and more getting used to the idea that "if I give you this link, it's probably an affiliate". Everybody trying to make money online is hooked up to Amazon, Clickbank, Ratuken, et al.
Absolutely, but I also know you're not non bias.
Some people hold the absolute idea that affiliate means bias and scam.
Who said scam?
Advice cannot be pure, it cannot be unbiased or objective.
We never said advice cannot be pure - in fact quite the opposite - we claim that it's pure because we refuse to take money from anyone for the products that we recommend - this way when we say - we take no money - you know that we are saying this only because we believe it's the best - this is even more so when I make a living off unpaid recommendations, because I'm paid by the user to find the best product for the user.
Some people have moved on and just find it part of normal life. Most people actually provide their advice and knowledge for free, so using affiliates for everything is their only form of payment.
Can you really trust these people? thanks for using this example. I personally can never trust a reviewer of, say, phones that gets the phones free. Why not you ask? Because there is always the chance that if that reviewer gives, say, Samsung a bad review on their phone, Samsung might not send them the next one to be reviewer. This risk to the reviewer make his untrustworthy by me. It's the primary reason that I don't believe almost anything on TV, not even indepth reporting... because those reporters all work for, basically, a giant advertising company. and if the reporter reports something bad on an advertising client.. the client just might stop using them.
So is the horse before the cart? Or not? Are people corrupt and unavoidably biased when they use affiliates, or can be be pure and objective but still use the affiliate as a means of extra payment or bonus?
Nope, not corrupt - you are just a VAR. Remember a VAR is a Value Added Reseller... the value you bring in this case is that you offer installation/setup services as well. that's what makes you different from a pure reseller.
Can you list consulting as a list of items on your website - sure... just remember when you do a consulting job, you should not include any affiliate links to anything... as they say, only the facts and just the facts ma'am.
It is correct, we don't know each other, you don't really "know" the consultant you just hired. So do you ask them before any work is done, "if you are on commissions or use affiliates, I can't work with you?"
As Scott said, people/companies abuse the consultant term all the time, so yes, it's up to you the person hiring a consultant to make sure they are on the up and up. This is generally pretty easy to tell though. In the case of CDW, you know they aren't consultants.. because they sell everything, they push random things at random times.. you know this from experience. If you didn't know.. then yes, you should ask.
It's the same thing, you don't know them, so find out. Or DON'T find out, and put blind trust that they are objective.
Scott suggested that there is a legal issue involved. If a client "finds out" they had purchased something which came from the consultant and happened to be affiliate, what law is being broken? The consultant didn't reveal it, but the client didn't ask.
This would depend on your contracts. If you had a situation like JB mentioned.. he's hired to consult.. he gives them their options (no purchase links in those option.. just equipment lists).. then they decide to hire him to do the work.. now he can use whatever links he wants, he's now a VAR. This is still a fine line though.. especially if you assume that it's likely that they will hire you in the first place to do the end work, then you still have the potential to look shady suggesting products you get a kick back on.
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said
Then do the even better thing - tell that customer - hey as an FYI, if you buy this chevy, chevy is sending me $20 - just an FYI. Why don't you want to do that?
Because then the client would want that.
Is the argument here just to charge more up front for consulting, and ditch the reseller fees?
If you need that money, then yes! and see - we are right back to what motivates you? Money does, because you want that $20 bucks.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Considering almost the entire "free" internet works off the affiliate/ad model, people are more and more getting used to the idea that "if I give you this link, it's probably an affiliate". Everybody trying to make money online is hooked up to Amazon, Clickbank, Ratuken, et al.
Absolutely, but I also know you're not non bias.
I think this is your belief only. Not absolute. But justified.
Nope, not corrupt - you are just a VAR. Remember a VAR is a Value Added Reseller... the value you bring in this case is that you offer installation/setup services as well. that's what makes you different from a pure reseller.
But I don't see myself as the "reseller" part. I don't resell, I just throw out a link and tell them this is my partner link, if you want to give an extra tip. No pressure.
I think of "reselling" as like white-label products, buying products "for" the customer and them buying back through me on the invoice for product line items.
I think of my brother as a reseller, he's an electrician. He extimates the job + labor + materials. He buys all the materials and charges for them at the end, I don't know if he adds markup or not, but he should!I don't do that, it's just a link. And it's not necessary. They don't "have" to click a link to use my services or recommendations. Nor do they have obligations to.
Can you list consulting as a list of items on your website - sure... just remember when you do a consulting job, you should not include any affiliate links to anything... as they say, only the facts and just the facts ma'am.
Probably the best idea really. But then again, if they can also hire me to implement, and one of my recommended solutions happens to be affiliate
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@Dashrender said
If you need that money, then yes! and see - we are right back to what motivates you? Money does, because you want that $20 bucks.
And everyone else is working for free?
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@Dashrender said
This would depend on your contracts. If you had a situation like JB mentioned.. he's hired to consult.. he gives them their options (no purchase links in those option.. just equipment lists).. then they decide to hire him to do the work.. now he can use whatever links he wants, he's now a VAR. This is still a fine line though.. especially if you assume that it's likely that they will hire you in the first place to do the end work, then you still have the potential to look shady suggesting products you get a kick back on.
Right, if you only make recommendations for products you get kickback on, what's the difference?
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Probably the best idea really. But then again, if they can also hire me to implement, and one of my recommended solutions happens to be affiliate
and Scott has said that this is what NTG struggles with all the time. A huge difference there is that they have consultant, Scott, and they implementors, Gene, etc. Keeping these roles separate enables the consult to remain a bit more unbiased as long as he doesn't know who or what is an affiliate with the company.
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@Dashrender said
and Scott has said that this is what NTG struggles with all the time. A huge difference there is that they have consultant, Scott, and they implementors, Gene, etc. Keeping these roles separate enables the consult to remain a bit more unbiased as long as he doesn't know who or what is an affiliate with the company.
But that is ridiculous from the sales side. (If there IS a sales side.) If you were running the sales department, and 4 out of 5 recommendation is from Company ABC, why wouldn't you want to become a reseller?
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said
Then do the even better thing - tell that customer - hey as an FYI, if you buy this chevy, chevy is sending me $20 - just an FYI. Why don't you want to do that?
Because then the client would want that.
Is the argument here just to charge more up front for consulting, and ditch the reseller fees?
If you need that money, then yes! and see - we are right back to what motivates you? Money does, because you want that $20 bucks.
No, the $20 is simply FREE for the taking, so why pass it up?
The only reason to pass it up is for some sense of objective purity only or to appear from the outside as completely unbiased.How many of us when presented with "buy one get one free!" refuse to take the second because we don't want to think the freebe altered our decision? I mean, free is free, it's just there.
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Probably the best idea really. But then again, if they can also hire me to implement, and one of my recommended solutions happens to be affiliate
and Scott has said that this is what NTG struggles with all the time. A huge difference there is that they have consultant, Scott, and they implementors, Gene, etc. Keeping these roles separate enables the consult to remain a bit more unbiased as long as he doesn't know who or what is an affiliate with the company.
So Gene can use all the affiliates he wants from the list?
Are we saying that people who DO the work and have to buy the solutions can do this but it's only the consultants we have to worry about?I have another direction to go here. Since we all pretty much have stated that full disclosure to the client makes it all ok. As long as they know you might use "partners" or earn commissions, it's cool.
I'm wondering how does this conversation even happen? Where is this information disclosed? How is it stated and yet still appease doubts about bias? Is it from the first minute?
Client: "Hi, I need some consulting, do you do that?"
Me: "Yes, I can help you out, but be aware I might make a finders fee on solutions I recommend, should you use me to implement them."This seems quite....intense.
Or throw it in some fine print at the bottom of an agreement on an estimate or something?
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said
and Scott has said that this is what NTG struggles with all the time. A huge difference there is that they have consultant, Scott, and they implementors, Gene, etc. Keeping these roles separate enables the consult to remain a bit more unbiased as long as he doesn't know who or what is an affiliate with the company.
But that is ridiculous from the sales side. (If there IS a sales side.) If you were running the sales department, and 4 out of 5 recommendation is from Company ABC, why wouldn't you want to become a reseller?
For that matter, why not get kickbacks from every possible vendor possible?
If sales is completely removed from the consulting process and recommendations, why shouldn't the implementers who are told "do this stuff" use all the kickbacks they can get? Now that the bias part is removed?
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said
and Scott has said that this is what NTG struggles with all the time. A huge difference there is that they have consultant, Scott, and they implementors, Gene, etc. Keeping these roles separate enables the consult to remain a bit more unbiased as long as he doesn't know who or what is an affiliate with the company.
But that is ridiculous from the sales side. (If there IS a sales side.) If you were running the sales department, and 4 out of 5 recommendation is from Company ABC, why wouldn't you want to become a reseller?
because it's counter to one of your primary business cores - being a consulting company that gives unbiased opinions.
How can you possibly say you're unbiased if your company sells one of the products you're recommending? -
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said
Then do the even better thing - tell that customer - hey as an FYI, if you buy this chevy, chevy is sending me $20 - just an FYI. Why don't you want to do that?
Because then the client would want that.
Is the argument here just to charge more up front for consulting, and ditch the reseller fees?
If you need that money, then yes! and see - we are right back to what motivates you? Money does, because you want that $20 bucks.
No, the $20 is simply FREE for the taking, so why pass it up?
The only reason to pass it up is for some sense of objective purity only or to appear from the outside as completely unbiased.How many of us when presented with "buy one get one free!" refuse to take the second because we don't want to think the freebe altered our decision? I mean, free is free, it's just there.
Again, bad example - you're taking of the second one doesn't counter someone paying you not to, or someone paying you to use a different product.
A better example would be.. someone paid you to use tide, but cheer was on sale, so you took tide's money and bought cheer with it.
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@Dashrender said
because it's counter to one of your primary business cores - being a consulting company that gives unbiased opinions.
How can you possibly say you're unbiased if your company sells one of the products you're recommending?Well, in theory these sides never meet. But what I am saying is if the consulting side recommends DELL 80 out of 100 times, and the sales side says, holy cow, we sell a lot of DELL, we should get a kickback, then what's the difference?
Yes, the consultant TECHNICALLY doesn't know if they are a reseller on the sales side, but of course it would make sense.
I would think the a consultant should NEVER sell, or have anyone else associated with them selling.
