Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab
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@guyinpv said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
But more poignantly let me ask you, how do you do the same thing if you have people clock in and clock out?
Depends on the business I suppose. We have obvious issues like business hours of operation, where our shipping personnel and customer service has to be expected to be working. Shippers have to do their thing also based on the schedules of the shipping truck drivers for deliveries and pickups.
The phones have to be answered during set business hours.
People who need priority shipping or rush services, we have to be there.
Finance people have to do their work within a workflow so that they do their thing before order processing can do there thing, so it's impossible for the finance guy to do freeform schedule when other people depend on his work to be done first.The list goes on.
All of that stuff up there, sure, you can call it blue collar, administrative, etc. But it all wraps up nicely when you can just say "everybody be available from this time to this time". That way all the workflows and processing happens when it's supposed to and work is performed at consistent times and schedules.
I understand you make the point that white collar professionals don't really work in these types of positions. But then again, is there no such think as a white collar professional finance manager? If their work has to be done by 8:30am, then it has to be done, whether set hours or freeform. This is a time constraint no matter how you slice it.
I can understand when a person owns a business and leases office space or a storefront, they want butts in the seats. What good is having a nice office if freeform employees don't spend much time there and prefer to do most work from home or even a coffee shop?
I can see why a boss wants to be able to call at 2:30pm and know without doubt he's got an employee in a chair who will answer and do what he says immediately.I can see why it would be somewhat annoying if the boss wants something done and has to round-robin calling people to find someone who isn't indisposed on a date or at the movies in the middle of the afternoon and thus has to wait 2 hours to get a task done.
I'm not arguing cause I think the freeform way is bad, cause it actually sounds lovely. I work best at night for example, I'm a night owl. I'm crummy in the morning and need a kick to get in to gear. I would love nothing more than being able to break up my day with a family lunch or a matinée or hit the gym to get a refresh. I'd love switching to a night schedule where I can work from after-dinner to 11:30pm or something and wake up at 9 or 10. It's just the way my body works.
Anyway I guess all I'm saying is, there are perks to both, perks for both the business owners, or the employees.
I would love to work from home, but if I'm working for a local business and a boss controls my time, then I want that time slot limited and to unplug from them the rest of the time. I don't want to go from feeling under control from 9-5 to being under control ALL the time which is how our salaried people felt. This is probably the boss's fault.
Freeform would only work for me if I get to be self-directed and don't have to feel like I'm on call. I've done on call, it's nearly panic-inducing. Making sure my phone is charged at all times and is near me with the ringer loud. Never forget to have it next to me in bed. Leave on the buzzer instead of turning it off in the theater. Always a small worry that it will ring at any moment. Warning people "if I get a call I have to run", etc. Having it on the counter next to me in the shower even.
That type of on-call situation is stressful. If I make one mistake and say I'm driving out the woods and don't have signal and don't realize it, then horror of horrors someone tried to contact me for an hour and now I have a black mark on my "performance report" for slow turn around time. It's just a horrid way to live as far as what I just described.
I guess at the end of the day it all boils down NOT to how passionate someone is about their work, but rather how controlled they feel within the company. I actually have a boss who often belittles people and is condescending, but of course, they are the boss, you just put up with it. With a boss like that, there is no better thing than being able to "unplug" and ignore them for the next 16 hours, irregardless of how much I love the work. And no worse thing than to have to hear their voice at 7:30pm when I'm having dinner with the family.
I guess I need a new job, hahaha, but I still love the work.
Yes. I would suggest you start dusting of the Resume. I won't put up with that from anybody, I don't care if it's the Janitor, the CEO, or the President of the United States. Be nice to me, and I'll be nice to you. In the end, though, we're all people, and we're going to have bad days. I can let stuff slide a time or two... but if it becomes a habbit, it's time for me to go.
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@tonyshowoff said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@tonyshowoff said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
I've never had a home lab and I'm better than most people I hire, or have worked for, or many I have met (but I've also met a lot of people way more knowledgeable and talented @scottalanmiller being one of them). Having said that, I do remember almost everything I do and read better than most people, so it's just genetic cheating anyway.
Your company is your own lab, though.
I guess that's true, but even prior to that. I've irritated some IT people just because I read tutorials, KB articles, forum posts, etc one time and then remember it forever, and even on this forum I have easily gone back to exact things people have said and called them on it. I'm not bragging though, I do realise there is a varied amount of training and knowledge people need, so I'm not like Samuel Johnson and assume everyone else who doesn't remember as well as I do is stupid and unworthy. There's a lot of talented people with even poor memories as well, since many times problem solving has less to do with memory, and more to do with... well.. problem solving. Fortunately I have skill at both, and try to pass along my garbage by participating in places like ML and SW to save others the time.
What's that old saying? "One man's garbage is another man's treasure?"
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@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@tonyshowoff said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@tonyshowoff said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
I've never had a home lab and I'm better than most people I hire, or have worked for, or many I have met (but I've also met a lot of people way more knowledgeable and talented @scottalanmiller being one of them). Having said that, I do remember almost everything I do and read better than most people, so it's just genetic cheating anyway.
Your company is your own lab, though.
I guess that's true, but even prior to that. I've irritated some IT people just because I read tutorials, KB articles, forum posts, etc one time and then remember it forever, and even on this forum I have easily gone back to exact things people have said and called them on it. I'm not bragging though, I do realise there is a varied amount of training and knowledge people need, so I'm not like Samuel Johnson and assume everyone else who doesn't remember as well as I do is stupid and unworthy. There's a lot of talented people with even poor memories as well, since many times problem solving has less to do with memory, and more to do with... well.. problem solving. Fortunately I have skill at both, and try to pass along my garbage by participating in places like ML and SW to save others the time.
What's that old saying? "One man's garbage is another man's treasure?"
Upvote my garbage!
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@tonyshowoff said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@tonyshowoff said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@tonyshowoff said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
I've never had a home lab and I'm better than most people I hire, or have worked for, or many I have met (but I've also met a lot of people way more knowledgeable and talented @scottalanmiller being one of them). Having said that, I do remember almost everything I do and read better than most people, so it's just genetic cheating anyway.
Your company is your own lab, though.
I guess that's true, but even prior to that. I've irritated some IT people just because I read tutorials, KB articles, forum posts, etc one time and then remember it forever, and even on this forum I have easily gone back to exact things people have said and called them on it. I'm not bragging though, I do realise there is a varied amount of training and knowledge people need, so I'm not like Samuel Johnson and assume everyone else who doesn't remember as well as I do is stupid and unworthy. There's a lot of talented people with even poor memories as well, since many times problem solving has less to do with memory, and more to do with... well.. problem solving. Fortunately I have skill at both, and try to pass along my garbage by participating in places like ML and SW to save others the time.
What's that old saying? "One man's garbage is another man's treasure?"
Upvote my garbage!
Upvoted!
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@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@tonyshowoff said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@tonyshowoff said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@tonyshowoff said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
I've never had a home lab and I'm better than most people I hire, or have worked for, or many I have met (but I've also met a lot of people way more knowledgeable and talented @scottalanmiller being one of them). Having said that, I do remember almost everything I do and read better than most people, so it's just genetic cheating anyway.
Your company is your own lab, though.
I guess that's true, but even prior to that. I've irritated some IT people just because I read tutorials, KB articles, forum posts, etc one time and then remember it forever, and even on this forum I have easily gone back to exact things people have said and called them on it. I'm not bragging though, I do realise there is a varied amount of training and knowledge people need, so I'm not like Samuel Johnson and assume everyone else who doesn't remember as well as I do is stupid and unworthy. There's a lot of talented people with even poor memories as well, since many times problem solving has less to do with memory, and more to do with... well.. problem solving. Fortunately I have skill at both, and try to pass along my garbage by participating in places like ML and SW to save others the time.
What's that old saying? "One man's garbage is another man's treasure?"
Upvote my garbage!
Upvoted!
Now it's a treasure.
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@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@guyinpv said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
But more poignantly let me ask you, how do you do the same thing if you have people clock in and clock out?
Depends on the business I suppose. We have obvious issues like business hours of operation, where our shipping personnel and customer service has to be expected to be working. Shippers have to do their thing also based on the schedules of the shipping truck drivers for deliveries and pickups.
The phones have to be answered during set business hours.
People who need priority shipping or rush services, we have to be there.
Finance people have to do their work within a workflow so that they do their thing before order processing can do there thing, so it's impossible for the finance guy to do freeform schedule when other people depend on his work to be done first.The list goes on.
All of that stuff up there, sure, you can call it blue collar, administrative, etc. But it all wraps up nicely when you can just say "everybody be available from this time to this time". That way all the workflows and processing happens when it's supposed to and work is performed at consistent times and schedules.
I understand you make the point that white collar professionals don't really work in these types of positions. But then again, is there no such think as a white collar professional finance manager? If their work has to be done by 8:30am, then it has to be done, whether set hours or freeform. This is a time constraint no matter how you slice it.
I can understand when a person owns a business and leases office space or a storefront, they want butts in the seats. What good is having a nice office if freeform employees don't spend much time there and prefer to do most work from home or even a coffee shop?
I can see why a boss wants to be able to call at 2:30pm and know without doubt he's got an employee in a chair who will answer and do what he says immediately.I can see why it would be somewhat annoying if the boss wants something done and has to round-robin calling people to find someone who isn't indisposed on a date or at the movies in the middle of the afternoon and thus has to wait 2 hours to get a task done.
I'm not arguing cause I think the freeform way is bad, cause it actually sounds lovely. I work best at night for example, I'm a night owl. I'm crummy in the morning and need a kick to get in to gear. I would love nothing more than being able to break up my day with a family lunch or a matinée or hit the gym to get a refresh. I'd love switching to a night schedule where I can work from after-dinner to 11:30pm or something and wake up at 9 or 10. It's just the way my body works.
Anyway I guess all I'm saying is, there are perks to both, perks for both the business owners, or the employees.
I would love to work from home, but if I'm working for a local business and a boss controls my time, then I want that time slot limited and to unplug from them the rest of the time. I don't want to go from feeling under control from 9-5 to being under control ALL the time which is how our salaried people felt. This is probably the boss's fault.
Freeform would only work for me if I get to be self-directed and don't have to feel like I'm on call. I've done on call, it's nearly panic-inducing. Making sure my phone is charged at all times and is near me with the ringer loud. Never forget to have it next to me in bed. Leave on the buzzer instead of turning it off in the theater. Always a small worry that it will ring at any moment. Warning people "if I get a call I have to run", etc. Having it on the counter next to me in the shower even.
That type of on-call situation is stressful. If I make one mistake and say I'm driving out the woods and don't have signal and don't realize it, then horror of horrors someone tried to contact me for an hour and now I have a black mark on my "performance report" for slow turn around time. It's just a horrid way to live as far as what I just described.
I guess at the end of the day it all boils down NOT to how passionate someone is about their work, but rather how controlled they feel within the company. I actually have a boss who often belittles people and is condescending, but of course, they are the boss, you just put up with it. With a boss like that, there is no better thing than being able to "unplug" and ignore them for the next 16 hours, irregardless of how much I love the work. And no worse thing than to have to hear their voice at 7:30pm when I'm having dinner with the family.
I guess I need a new job, hahaha, but I still love the work.
Yes. I would suggest you start dusting of the Resume. I won't put up with that from anybody, I don't care if it's the Janitor, the CEO, or the President of the United States. Be nice to me, and I'll be nice to you. In the end, though, we're all people, and we're going to have bad days. I can let stuff slide a time or two... but if it becomes a habbit, it's time for me to go.
Absolutely.
It's an interesting study in psychology though. Other people's attitudes don't affect me that much but it's very annoying just the same. Some have suspected this boss is bipolar for example, cause other days they act awesome. Some days all the employees are whispering "stay out of the way, they're on rampage" and that sort of thing. Some days they are fine.
They also have an old school "boss pattern" that is all too familiar and ugly. The pattern of "better to fear me than love me". A patter than says you must exert yourself as powerful over the lowly employees and "show them who's boss". Where pushback is never tolerated, black marks all around, performance reports, dissenters will be punished and publicly humiliated, jobs will be subtly threatened if they don't get their way, it will sometimes be reminded that we can be replaced easy enough.
All these old school bossy bully tactics get very old. I would much rather work in a true team environment where everybody encourages greatness and nobody has to feel threatened about anything and lash out at each other. Where the boss doesn't feel threatened and have to show how powerful they are so they can feel in control.
My boss demands we come talk about any "issues" but invariably anybody who brings up an issue gets on the black list until further notice and it's quite obvious this happens. They've fired people for "bringing up stuff" that they didn't like.
Wow, I'm ranting like a disgruntled employee! But I love the work!
Now come on, is THAT not a sign of passion too?!
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@guyinpv said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Wow, I'm ranting like a disgruntled employee! But I love the work!
Now come on, is THAT not a sign of passion too?!
No, that means (yet again), leave that place.
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@guyinpv said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@guyinpv said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
But more poignantly let me ask you, how do you do the same thing if you have people clock in and clock out?
Depends on the business I suppose. We have obvious issues like business hours of operation, where our shipping personnel and customer service has to be expected to be working. Shippers have to do their thing also based on the schedules of the shipping truck drivers for deliveries and pickups.
The phones have to be answered during set business hours.
People who need priority shipping or rush services, we have to be there.
Finance people have to do their work within a workflow so that they do their thing before order processing can do there thing, so it's impossible for the finance guy to do freeform schedule when other people depend on his work to be done first.The list goes on.
All of that stuff up there, sure, you can call it blue collar, administrative, etc. But it all wraps up nicely when you can just say "everybody be available from this time to this time". That way all the workflows and processing happens when it's supposed to and work is performed at consistent times and schedules.
I understand you make the point that white collar professionals don't really work in these types of positions. But then again, is there no such think as a white collar professional finance manager? If their work has to be done by 8:30am, then it has to be done, whether set hours or freeform. This is a time constraint no matter how you slice it.
I can understand when a person owns a business and leases office space or a storefront, they want butts in the seats. What good is having a nice office if freeform employees don't spend much time there and prefer to do most work from home or even a coffee shop?
I can see why a boss wants to be able to call at 2:30pm and know without doubt he's got an employee in a chair who will answer and do what he says immediately.I can see why it would be somewhat annoying if the boss wants something done and has to round-robin calling people to find someone who isn't indisposed on a date or at the movies in the middle of the afternoon and thus has to wait 2 hours to get a task done.
I'm not arguing cause I think the freeform way is bad, cause it actually sounds lovely. I work best at night for example, I'm a night owl. I'm crummy in the morning and need a kick to get in to gear. I would love nothing more than being able to break up my day with a family lunch or a matinée or hit the gym to get a refresh. I'd love switching to a night schedule where I can work from after-dinner to 11:30pm or something and wake up at 9 or 10. It's just the way my body works.
Anyway I guess all I'm saying is, there are perks to both, perks for both the business owners, or the employees.
I would love to work from home, but if I'm working for a local business and a boss controls my time, then I want that time slot limited and to unplug from them the rest of the time. I don't want to go from feeling under control from 9-5 to being under control ALL the time which is how our salaried people felt. This is probably the boss's fault.
Freeform would only work for me if I get to be self-directed and don't have to feel like I'm on call. I've done on call, it's nearly panic-inducing. Making sure my phone is charged at all times and is near me with the ringer loud. Never forget to have it next to me in bed. Leave on the buzzer instead of turning it off in the theater. Always a small worry that it will ring at any moment. Warning people "if I get a call I have to run", etc. Having it on the counter next to me in the shower even.
That type of on-call situation is stressful. If I make one mistake and say I'm driving out the woods and don't have signal and don't realize it, then horror of horrors someone tried to contact me for an hour and now I have a black mark on my "performance report" for slow turn around time. It's just a horrid way to live as far as what I just described.
I guess at the end of the day it all boils down NOT to how passionate someone is about their work, but rather how controlled they feel within the company. I actually have a boss who often belittles people and is condescending, but of course, they are the boss, you just put up with it. With a boss like that, there is no better thing than being able to "unplug" and ignore them for the next 16 hours, irregardless of how much I love the work. And no worse thing than to have to hear their voice at 7:30pm when I'm having dinner with the family.
I guess I need a new job, hahaha, but I still love the work.
Yes. I would suggest you start dusting of the Resume. I won't put up with that from anybody, I don't care if it's the Janitor, the CEO, or the President of the United States. Be nice to me, and I'll be nice to you. In the end, though, we're all people, and we're going to have bad days. I can let stuff slide a time or two... but if it becomes a habbit, it's time for me to go.
Absolutely.
It's an interesting study in psychology though. Other people's attitudes don't affect me that much but it's very annoying just the same. Some have suspected this boss is bipolar for example, cause other days they act awesome. Some days all the employees are whispering "stay out of the way, they're on rampage" and that sort of thing. Some days they are fine.
They also have an old school "boss pattern" that is all too familiar and ugly. The pattern of "better to fear me than love me". A patter than says you must exert yourself as powerful over the lowly employees and "show them who's boss". Where pushback is never tolerated, black marks all around, performance reports, dissenters will be punished and publicly humiliated, jobs will be subtly threatened if they don't get their way, it will sometimes be reminded that we can be replaced easy enough.
All these old school bossy bully tactics get very old. I would much rather work in a true team environment where everybody encourages greatness and nobody has to feel threatened about anything and lash out at each other. Where the boss doesn't feel threatened and have to show how powerful they are so they can feel in control.
My boss demands we come talk about any "issues" but invariably anybody who brings up an issue gets on the black list until further notice and it's quite obvious this happens. They've fired people for "bringing up stuff" that they didn't like.
Wow, I'm ranting like a disgruntled employee! But I love the work!
Now come on, is THAT not a sign of passion too?!
Oh, I think that I know where you work
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@guyinpv said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
I understand you make the point that white collar professionals don't really work in these types of positions. But then again, is there no such think as a white collar professional finance manager? If their work has to be done by 8:30am, then it has to be done, whether set hours or freeform. This is a time constraint no matter how you slice it.
Done by and done at are not the same. That's done by, and that's fine. They could do it from home, the day before, moments before, in the office, overnight, from an airplane... it's about getting it done.
Here is another way to picture this...
Do you care what gets down? Or do you care how it gets done?
Are you focused on the proximate/means or the goal/ends? Professionals are measured on their output. Others are generally measured on their energy spent. Why anyone cares "how" is anyone's guess. You'd think companies would care about results.
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@guyinpv said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
I would love to work from home, but if I'm working for a local business and a boss controls my time, then I want that time slot limited and to unplug from them the rest of the time. I don't want to go from feeling under control from 9-5 to being under control ALL the time which is how our salaried people felt. This is probably the boss's fault.
Exactly. Bad management. That's not someone who wants good people, that's someone who wants control. It's not a logical thing to want, it doesn't meet the business goals.
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@guyinpv said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
That type of on-call situation is stressful. If I make one mistake and say I'm driving out the woods and don't have signal and don't realize it, then horror of horrors someone tried to contact me for an hour and now I have a black mark on my "performance report" for slow turn around time. It's just a horrid way to live as far as what I just described.
I used to have that happen all of the time, but normally because I was in the office where people would pull me into meetings away from my phone, email, IM, etc. Going home is what let me answer the calls.
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@guyinpv said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
I guess at the end of the day it all boils down NOT to how passionate someone is about their work, but rather how controlled they feel within the company.
One could argue that passionate people will be more likely to attempt to rectify that, rather than accepting and succumbing to it.
It's not passionate about the work, though, but the field. It's different. We don't want people who combine the two. A crappy job and a crappy manager that makes you hate your job should not affect your love of IT, those are separate things. We want people passionate about IT, no boss can take that away from you. Now if they are passionate about working and working for NTG, hey, even better.
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I don't at the moment. Combination of dying hardware which I haven't replaced yet, and new job which is taking up a lot of my time. That combined with some other life stuff has put it on the back burner. I'll get it set up again eventually, when I have something pressing that I really want to play with. I do miss having it a bit when answering questions. The type of things where I'm 99% sure that it works the way I think it does, but before I open my mouth in a post I just want to verify.
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@Patrick welcome to the community!
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@scottalanmiller said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@guyinpv said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
That type of on-call situation is stressful. If I make one mistake and say I'm driving out the woods and don't have signal and don't realize it, then horror of horrors someone tried to contact me for an hour and now I have a black mark on my "performance report" for slow turn around time. It's just a horrid way to live as far as what I just described.
I used to have that happen all of the time, but normally because I was in the office where people would pull me into meetings away from my phone, email, IM, etc. Going home is what let me answer the calls.
It's certainly a paradigm shift.
Do you have examples of where it was necessary to point out an employee whose output was not up to par? Where does freedom of time end and "let's get some work done here fella" begin?
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@scottalanmiller Thank you!
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@guyinpv said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
Do you have examples of where it was necessary to point out an employee whose output was not up to par? Where does freedom of time end and "let's get some work done here fella" begin?
It's really all about productivity. It should never, in theory, be about "let's get work done here", but rather "let's get work done"
Yes, certainly some people just can't work and get stuff done. Rarely does it become a problem, the pursuit of passion really works great at preventing that problem for the most part.
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I'm like that... I want to help folks ge ttheir IT problems fixed... I really, really do. But I can't stand it when I'm working with a client and they take days or weeks to get back to me on something. Argh!
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@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
I'm like that... I want to help folks ge ttheir IT problems fixed... I really, really do. But I can't stand it when I'm working with a client and they take days or weeks to get back to me on something. Argh!
Just lets you move on to another client that is ready to work with you!
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@StrongBad said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
@dafyre said in Would You Hire Someone in IT Who Does Not Have a Home Lab:
I'm like that... I want to help folks ge ttheir IT problems fixed... I really, really do. But I can't stand it when I'm working with a client and they take days or weeks to get back to me on something. Argh!
Just lets you move on to another client that is ready to work with you!
Says the guy using Lappy 486 to answer emails.
