I have to change cloud drive service yet again
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The thing is, it's not about just two people editing over each other. NC handles that with a conflict file.
The operation that keeps causing people trouble is either renaming a file, in which the old name comes back to life. Or moving a file, in which it reverses and goes back to where it was.In some cases when they rename and move a file, we end up with the same file existing in BOTH folders. I would assume easily in this case they simply copied rather than moved, but the employee is adamant, swears under oath, they did CTRL-X and not CTRL-C to move it. They'll even say they "saw the file disappear" when they cut it. Of course, the files don't actually disappear in Windows, they just kind of turn greyed out.
So it's my word versus theirs. My insistence the software works right and they probably just copied, versus their word they swear they cut it. And guess who wins the hey-said/she-said? Not the IT dept that's for sure. Everybody blames the cloud, and by extension me, and thus I have to go find another cloud provider until we never have issues and nothing is ever broken.
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Users aren't saving a copy to their hard drive, then putting it back after someone else moves or renames it?
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@Obsolesce said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Users aren't saving a copy to their hard drive, then putting it back after someone else moves or renames it?
Using the NextCloud Sync client, all the files are already local on their drives. So the users are using CTRL-X to cut files and paste them into other folders. And occasionally, those file operations reverse and a moved file goes back to where it was. Or a renamed files gets reversed. Or worse, a renamed and moved file because a duplicate in its original folder, leaving us with 2 copies with multiple names.
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@guyinpv said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Obsolesce said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Users aren't saving a copy to their hard drive, then putting it back after someone else moves or renames it?
Using the NextCloud Sync client, all the files are already local on their drives. So the users are using CTRL-X to cut files and paste them into other folders. And occasionally, those file operations reverse and a moved file goes back to where it was. Or a renamed files gets reversed. Or worse, a renamed and moved file because a duplicate in its original folder, leaving us with 2 copies with multiple names.
That's the issue.
If a file is on a bunch of different computers, someone moves it on their local synced folder, NC will have to tell it to move or rename on everyone else's computer too... and perhaps not everyone else's computer is online at that time or syncing to NC. And that person may end up making changes, moving, or renaming before it gets a chance to sync first.
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@guyinpv said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Obsolesce said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Users aren't saving a copy to their hard drive, then putting it back after someone else moves or renames it?
Using the NextCloud Sync client, all the files are already local on their drives. So the users are using CTRL-X to cut files and paste them into other folders. And occasionally, those file operations reverse and a moved file goes back to where it was. Or a renamed files gets reversed. Or worse, a renamed and moved file because a duplicate in its original folder, leaving us with 2 copies with multiple names.
yeah, that's a behavioural thing that has to stop. Has to, period. Simply isn't something that they can do when using that kind of system, any system like that.
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@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@guyinpv said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Obsolesce said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Users aren't saving a copy to their hard drive, then putting it back after someone else moves or renames it?
Using the NextCloud Sync client, all the files are already local on their drives. So the users are using CTRL-X to cut files and paste them into other folders. And occasionally, those file operations reverse and a moved file goes back to where it was. Or a renamed files gets reversed. Or worse, a renamed and moved file because a duplicate in its original folder, leaving us with 2 copies with multiple names.
yeah, that's a behavioural thing that has to stop. Has to, period. Simply isn't something that they can do when using that kind of system, any system like that.
Exactly - You're not in a SMB file share type situation anymore - they can't work like they used to no matter how much it kinda looks like the old system.
They have to change their behavior regardless - so why not change it to the best operating solution? Of course, you'll have to determine what that is.
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@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Maybe you need an onsite NC setup for the majority of users, and the remote access/sync for the others.
Has he answered this question yet? I haven't seen it and I keep looking for it. In the other thread he mentioned that they have no problem spending some money on hardware... If it's all under one roof buy a new NAS and just run one sync client there.
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@bnrstnr said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Maybe you need an onsite NC setup for the majority of users, and the remote access/sync for the others.
Has he answered this question yet? I haven't seen it and I keep looking for it. In the other thread he mentioned that they have no problem spending some money on hardware... If it's all under one roof buy a new NAS and just run one sync client there.
how would he sync mobile users who are offsite?
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@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
how would he sync mobile users who are offsite?
At least he would be consolidating the 11 users that are all onsite, this would probably reduce some headaches even if remote users still use the sync client individually. Almost exactly like you said...
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@bnrstnr said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
how would he sync mobile users who are offsite?
At least he would be consolidating the 11 users that are all onsite, this would probably reduce some headaches even if remote users still use the sync client individually. Almost exactly like you said...
But how would he sync those remote users? what solution are you envisioning?
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@Dashrender The NAS has the sync client and the remote users each use the sync client. The office users don't connect to NC directly at all, they work from the NAS, which syncs back to the Vultr NC server, and the remote users all sync back individually. This might help the office users with less overlapping files all stored on their computers. I don't know where the system is failing though, whether it's the remote users that are messing things up or if it's mostly the office users... he would have to figure that out first. Sorry if slow or rehashing old stuff, I just got back from Brazil and I'm not totally up to date with all of these threads.
I do think it would be better to just have the NC server in the office instead of another file server syncing back... That seems to be the best solution if he is being forced to use NC.
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@bnrstnr said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
and the remote users all sync back individually.
to what? the NC in the cloud? oh man I would expect that to break things like crazy.
NC isn't a requirement here - as far as I know. it's just the current solution the OP is using.
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@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@guyinpv said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Obsolesce said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Users aren't saving a copy to their hard drive, then putting it back after someone else moves or renames it?
Using the NextCloud Sync client, all the files are already local on their drives. So the users are using CTRL-X to cut files and paste them into other folders. And occasionally, those file operations reverse and a moved file goes back to where it was. Or a renamed files gets reversed. Or worse, a renamed and moved file because a duplicate in its original folder, leaving us with 2 copies with multiple names.
yeah, that's a behavioural thing that has to stop. Has to, period. Simply isn't something that they can do when using that kind of system, any system like that.
What behavior is better?
Assuming you mean they should stop using ctrl-x to cut and paste files. Are you suggesting they should, say, copy the file to their desktop, then delete the NC one, then copy the file back into the new folder location?
Funny thing is, when they ctrl-x and move a file, NC literally records the activity as a file move operation. It knows what just happened. That just makes everything that much more weird.
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@guyinpv said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@guyinpv said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Obsolesce said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Users aren't saving a copy to their hard drive, then putting it back after someone else moves or renames it?
Using the NextCloud Sync client, all the files are already local on their drives. So the users are using CTRL-X to cut files and paste them into other folders. And occasionally, those file operations reverse and a moved file goes back to where it was. Or a renamed files gets reversed. Or worse, a renamed and moved file because a duplicate in its original folder, leaving us with 2 copies with multiple names.
yeah, that's a behavioural thing that has to stop. Has to, period. Simply isn't something that they can do when using that kind of system, any system like that.
What behavior is better?
Assuming you mean they should stop using ctrl-x to cut and paste files. Are you suggesting they should, say, copy the file to their desktop, then delete the NC one, then copy the file back into the new folder location?
Funny thing is, when they ctrl-x and move a file, NC literally records the activity as a file move operation. It knows what just happened. That just makes everything that much more weird.
I know of no business that does this (ctrl+x to move files). If they are all doing this someone must have told them to do it this way. Was that you?
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@guyinpv said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Funny thing is, when they ctrl-x and move a file, NC literally records the activity as a file move operation. It knows what just happened. That just makes everything that much more weird.
That is because it is a file move operation. There is zero weird here except you, your users, and all of your expectations.
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@guyinpv said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@guyinpv said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Obsolesce said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Users aren't saving a copy to their hard drive, then putting it back after someone else moves or renames it?
Using the NextCloud Sync client, all the files are already local on their drives. So the users are using CTRL-X to cut files and paste them into other folders. And occasionally, those file operations reverse and a moved file goes back to where it was. Or a renamed files gets reversed. Or worse, a renamed and moved file because a duplicate in its original folder, leaving us with 2 copies with multiple names.
yeah, that's a behavioural thing that has to stop. Has to, period. Simply isn't something that they can do when using that kind of system, any system like that.
What behavior is better?
Assuming you mean they should stop using ctrl-x to cut and paste files. Are you suggesting they should, say, copy the file to their desktop, then delete the NC one, then copy the file back into the new folder location?
They should stop moving files around without coordinating with everyone. Do file moves isn't an option like that, this isn't an "expose the guts under the hood and make the end users understand the filesystem" setup like an SMB share, this is a sync service and they simply can't do that without causing problems to each other.
Just stop them completely, don't try to come up with some other way to do it.
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@guyinpv said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Funny thing is, when they ctrl-x and move a file, NC literally records the activity as a file move operation. It knows what just happened. That just makes everything that much more weird.
Well sure, because it is. NTFS records it that way, too. But the problem is is that a move isn't like other things and once moved the file no longer is the same file as the one that the other sync clients are dealing with. So it starts to cause duplications and other weird artefacts.
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@wirestyle22 said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
I know of no business that does this (ctrl+x to move files). If they are all doing this someone must have told them to do it this way.
It's definitely an odd thing to have happening. Sure, from time to time when you use too many folders as an organizational scheme, things need to be moved. But it's a very rare thing in the normal business world. If files are getting moved all of the time, how do people know where they are supposed to be? How do they coordinate when the files move on them? That would cause all kinds of problems in a mapped drive scenario, too.
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@wirestyle22 said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@guyinpv said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@guyinpv said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Obsolesce said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Users aren't saving a copy to their hard drive, then putting it back after someone else moves or renames it?
Using the NextCloud Sync client, all the files are already local on their drives. So the users are using CTRL-X to cut files and paste them into other folders. And occasionally, those file operations reverse and a moved file goes back to where it was. Or a renamed files gets reversed. Or worse, a renamed and moved file because a duplicate in its original folder, leaving us with 2 copies with multiple names.
yeah, that's a behavioural thing that has to stop. Has to, period. Simply isn't something that they can do when using that kind of system, any system like that.
What behavior is better?
Assuming you mean they should stop using ctrl-x to cut and paste files. Are you suggesting they should, say, copy the file to their desktop, then delete the NC one, then copy the file back into the new folder location?
Funny thing is, when they ctrl-x and move a file, NC literally records the activity as a file move operation. It knows what just happened. That just makes everything that much more weird.
I know of no business that does this (ctrl+x to move files). If they are all doing this someone must have told them to do it this way. Was that you?
huh - about 50% of my users use ctrl + keys all day long. We do a lot of copy pasting between systems. I know I showed some of them, some knew from before.
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@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@guyinpv said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@guyinpv said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Obsolesce said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Users aren't saving a copy to their hard drive, then putting it back after someone else moves or renames it?
Using the NextCloud Sync client, all the files are already local on their drives. So the users are using CTRL-X to cut files and paste them into other folders. And occasionally, those file operations reverse and a moved file goes back to where it was. Or a renamed files gets reversed. Or worse, a renamed and moved file because a duplicate in its original folder, leaving us with 2 copies with multiple names.
yeah, that's a behavioural thing that has to stop. Has to, period. Simply isn't something that they can do when using that kind of system, any system like that.
What behavior is better?
Assuming you mean they should stop using ctrl-x to cut and paste files. Are you suggesting they should, say, copy the file to their desktop, then delete the NC one, then copy the file back into the new folder location?
They should stop moving files around without coordinating with everyone. Do file moves isn't an option like that, this isn't an "expose the guts under the hood and make the end users understand the filesystem" setup like an SMB share, this is a sync service and they simply can't do that without causing problems to each other.
Just stop them completely, don't try to come up with some other way to do it.
I'll start by saying - it seems odd that file moves would be happening so frequently that this is seen as an issue - why are they moving files so often?
That said - we have a process where faxes are dumped into a folder, then they are uploaded into our EHR, then they are moved to a trash folder where they are left for 30 days, then deleted. So we do a move process all the time, ever day.
I also don't get why Scott is against people doing moves? Does the fact that this is a sync'ing system somehow change this process?
I don't disagree with the OP that his issues definitely seem like shitty programming problems that simply shouldn't exist. 20 people all sync the same files - 5 people are offline most of the time - someone moves a file, one of the offline people come back online - the offline system should see a date notice of the file move and change the once offline client to match the server. NOW - if there is a conflict because the offline user changed that same file - then the user should be prompted for action. This is what normal people expect to happen. But as mentioned by the OP - it's clearly not what's happening, and I have seen similar behavior.Now knowing that this behavior is there - I would go back to the boss and say - I'm sorry this is a hard computer science problem, it has not been solved. To get a solution that suites us, WE have to change our workflow because WE want more from our system than we wanted from the old SMB days - therefore WE have to change because the tech just isn't there yet to allow us to keep our old workflows. Sucks, but as we've seen in the past 2-3 sync solutions we've tried. So either you permit me to create a new workflow (that people will hate at least for now), or we just keep complaining about the problems and continue to have issues.
