Is the Echo trustworthy?
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@stacksofplates said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
I really want the thing, I'm ready to buy three of them, but the security concerns are overwhelming.
What's the concern over other similar devices? Only real difference is the audio quality of the device.
I assume when I turn off voice activated abilities on my phone, that's the end of it.
As well the physical barrier. For example to use Google voice, I have to literally press the voice button or whatever, to open it up to speaking.
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
You can mute the mic on the echos. It shuts the mic off until you press the button again.
The Amazon Tap ONLY listens when you press a button, never listens even for the voice commands.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
Alexa / Echo is a phone now. Does that solve the problem by crossing the barrier into trusted?
No.
When I say "alexa", the Dot is going to answer.
When I say "hello Google", my phone does nothing.
But really, I don't trust Google any more than Amazon, so this is a general concern indeed. It applies to both.
I should say this. The security aspect isn't just about whether Amazon itself listens to more than I bargained for, because presumably we still have a data contract and whatever it's listening to and why, is still just part of normal Alexa services.
The second security question is what is done with the data. The profiling and data collection, which is perhaps a more scary subject. And who they can or will or be forced to share the data with in the future. There is even the concern of Amazon simply being hacked and such profiles stolen. That's not outside the realm of possibility.
I don't consider myself a tin foil person, but the general trend in western societies is getting more and more invasive. Especially when it comes to thought policing. Whether thinking the wrong thoughts or believing the wrong things is becoming legally punishable. What happens if Amazon has a record of a discussion in your home where Bruce Jenner was mentioned without using proper gender pronouns? Something that probably happens all the time and is nobodies business. Yet in Canada, not using requested genera pronouns is legally punishable.
If ever there is a time where thought policing becomes a thing in America, there will be zero microphones recording anything in my home. Not because I'm personally being naughty, but I also don't control what other people say who may be in the house; friends, parties, visitors, etc.
There are definitely countries in this world where criticizing the government leadership is a punishable offense. Wouldn't they just love to have microphones in the homes of their people?
It's all pretty alarming what the future holds for such devices.
Google and Amazon may be more or less trustworthy now. And our massive data profiles may not be useful now, but they could become useful or even incriminating in 10 years from now. Or useful if hacked and stolen.
That's why I really did wonder, if I don't want the Echo in a year or two, can I wipe my whole profile out? I don't know.
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
Alexa / Echo is a phone now. Does that solve the problem by crossing the barrier into trusted?
No.
When I say "alexa", the Dot is going to answer.
When I say "hello Google", my phone does nothing.
That only means it doesn't respond. Doesn't tell you it isn't listening. The thing you are worried about cannot be tested that way. That only tells you about legit use, which was never your concern.
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
That's why I really did wonder, if I don't want the Echo in a year or two, can I wipe my whole profile out? I don't know.
Assume no.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
Alexa / Echo is a phone now. Does that solve the problem by crossing the barrier into trusted?
No.
When I say "alexa", the Dot is going to answer.
When I say "hello Google", my phone does nothing.
That only means it doesn't respond. Doesn't tell you it isn't listening. The thing you are worried about cannot be tested that way. That only tells you about legit use, which was never your concern.
Also, your phone can respond hello google if you turn that setting on.
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See my Google home stats
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@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
Alexa / Echo is a phone now. Does that solve the problem by crossing the barrier into trusted?
No.
When I say "alexa", the Dot is going to answer.
When I say "hello Google", my phone does nothing.
That only means it doesn't respond. Doesn't tell you it isn't listening. The thing you are worried about cannot be tested that way. That only tells you about legit use, which was never your concern.
What you just wrote is basically "they can do completely sneaky things completely against terms of use and there is no way we can know about it".
Hence why this is such a good security debate to have. Who are the gatekeepers and the watchman? -
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
Alexa / Echo is a phone now. Does that solve the problem by crossing the barrier into trusted?
No.
When I say "alexa", the Dot is going to answer.
When I say "hello Google", my phone does nothing.
That only means it doesn't respond. Doesn't tell you it isn't listening. The thing you are worried about cannot be tested that way. That only tells you about legit use, which was never your concern.
What you just wrote is basically "they can do completely sneaky things completely against terms of use and there is no way we can know about it".
Hence why this is such a good security debate to have. Who are the gatekeepers and the watchman?My point was this applies to all devices like this equally and singling one or one type out doesn't make sense. Your phone is an equal or greater risk to an Alexa, as it is so much more powerful and ubiquitous.
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Now if you want a broader discussion over how companies collect audio data, sure. But if the question is "Should I have security concerns about these devices" the simple answer is "no more than you do with a phone."
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@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
Alexa / Echo is a phone now. Does that solve the problem by crossing the barrier into trusted?
No.
When I say "alexa", the Dot is going to answer.
When I say "hello Google", my phone does nothing.
That only means it doesn't respond. Doesn't tell you it isn't listening. The thing you are worried about cannot be tested that way. That only tells you about legit use, which was never your concern.
What you just wrote is basically "they can do completely sneaky things completely against terms of use and there is no way we can know about it".
Hence why this is such a good security debate to have. Who are the gatekeepers and the watchman?My point was this applies to all devices like this equally and singling one or one type out doesn't make sense. Your phone is an equal or greater risk to an Alexa, as it is so much more powerful and ubiquitous.
Isn't this just what I was saying in the HP malware thread? Well everything else phones home too, probably without express permission. The only reason we single out HP is they were caught. But in reality, HP is no bigger threat than anything else on a computer that is phoning home. We're just mad cause we know about it.
In all honestly, I'm sure all these smart devices are just fine as of right now. But what is done with the data collecting is the long term concern.
I've been reading more about it. We can apparently go in and delete Alexa recordings and some history. And they claim no audio except maybe a second before the wake word is sent to Amazon. And only about 60 seconds of pre-recording is done at all times when listening for the wake word, but the 60 seconds is always overwritten by the following seconds, and it's not sent to Amazon.
I suppose the safest way to use it is to create a fresh Amazon account, don't allow shopping or ability to spend money or send money with banks etc.
You can apparently turn on a stop-listening sound or tone to beep when Alexa stops listening, so you know when you can carry on conversation.
You can delete recordings and listen to them.
And of course you can mute with the button if needed.
And for some reason, Amazon claims there is no way for hackers to activate a mic and get their own recordings.But other people have made claims too. Like one person said they were discussing babies together and suddenly diaper ads appeared in their Kindle. It really makes you wonder. Why would Amazon, or Google, NOT use your private conversations to advertise to you?
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
Alexa / Echo is a phone now. Does that solve the problem by crossing the barrier into trusted?
No.
When I say "alexa", the Dot is going to answer.
When I say "hello Google", my phone does nothing.
That only means it doesn't respond. Doesn't tell you it isn't listening. The thing you are worried about cannot be tested that way. That only tells you about legit use, which was never your concern.
What you just wrote is basically "they can do completely sneaky things completely against terms of use and there is no way we can know about it".
Hence why this is such a good security debate to have. Who are the gatekeepers and the watchman?My point was this applies to all devices like this equally and singling one or one type out doesn't make sense. Your phone is an equal or greater risk to an Alexa, as it is so much more powerful and ubiquitous.
Isn't this just what I was saying in the HP malware thread?
It's what you were saying, but not how you were applying it. You are singling HP out and treating them special, then saying we should treat everything equally. In both threads, I'm trying to show that you need to be wary, but not blame people that you don't know are doing something wrong, and treat everyone the same - not single some out arbitrarily. The problem in both cases is that HP and the Echo are being treated as special cases when you look at them, and not treated as they should along with similar cases (along with Lenovo in HP's case, with phones in the Echo's case.)
In the case of HP, HP has been caught and is known to be doing something wrong and needs to be treated as such. With the Echo, there is no reason to believe that they are doing something wrong and any fear of them applies to many things we trust every day.
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
And for some reason, Amazon claims there is no way for hackers to activate a mic and get their own recordings.
Everyone says things like that. It is never true.
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
But other people have made claims too. Like one person said they were discussing babies together and suddenly diaper ads appeared in their Kindle. It really makes you wonder. Why would Amazon, or Google, NOT use your private conversations to advertise to you?
This is something we see happen all the time, too. But there are known ways that this happens and there isn't really a reason to connect this to the microphone. FB does this off of phones all of the time, and people wonder the same thing. ANd it might be listening - but would prove that the phones, not Echos, are the scary piece. But the real thing is, that Amazon has an insane ability to predict what you will discuss, even before you could guess it yourself.
Even 5-10 years ago, Amazon without microphones had better, earlier pregnancy detection than women could tell themselves. That's how good the AI was years ago with a fraction of the data that it has today.
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Like everything in life I guess. No immediate reason to fear it, until there is. And by then it will be too late. Murphy's law, Moore's law. It's not a problem now, until it is.
The question to ask now is, is the trade-off worth it? Or more specifically, what do you do with it that is truly useful? Not just asking for weather or math answers. But does it do something truly unique and important in your life? Productivity? Business use? Or just basic hands-free conveniences?
I'm interested in asking for general facts, weather, math, cooking conversions, spellings, Spotify music playing, bank balance, intercom, messaging to phones, alarms, custom skills. I'm sure more interesting things would also reveal themselves. -
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Like everything in life I guess. No immediate reason to fear it, until there is. And by then it will be too late. Murphy's law, Moore's law. It's not a problem now, until it is.
The question to ask now is, is the trade-off worth it? Or more specifically, what do you do with it that is truly useful? Not just asking for weather or math answers. But does it do something truly unique and important in your life? Productivity? Business use? Or just basic hands-free conveniences?
I'm interested in asking for general facts, weather, math, cooking conversions, spellings, Spotify music playing, bank balance, intercom, messaging to phones, alarms, custom skills. I'm sure more interesting things would also reveal themselves.That's why I mention the phones. If you are going to avoid the Echo, you must also avoid phones. If you aren't going to worry about phones, you can group the Echo with them and you are good.
It's a fine thing to be concerned about. Just don't make one a special case when they are identical.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Like everything in life I guess. No immediate reason to fear it, until there is. And by then it will be too late. Murphy's law, Moore's law. It's not a problem now, until it is.
The question to ask now is, is the trade-off worth it? Or more specifically, what do you do with it that is truly useful? Not just asking for weather or math answers. But does it do something truly unique and important in your life? Productivity? Business use? Or just basic hands-free conveniences?
I'm interested in asking for general facts, weather, math, cooking conversions, spellings, Spotify music playing, bank balance, intercom, messaging to phones, alarms, custom skills. I'm sure more interesting things would also reveal themselves.That's why I mention the phones. If you are going to avoid the Echo, you must also avoid phones. If you aren't going to worry about phones, you can group the Echo with them and you are good.
It's a fine thing to be concerned about. Just don't make one a special case when they are identical.
They aren't identical, one is Amazon, one is Google.
I think there is already a collective perception that Google is the data monster, profiling everything and serving ads. But I don't think people have the same perception about Amazon.
I might even say public perception of Amazon is much more safe.
There are people who actively try to avoid Google services due to their blatant open collecting of all data. But I don't know anybody who tries to stay away from Amazon services.Google has been exposed to data hoarding. Amazon not so much.
And yes I do trust when I turn off voice control on my phone, it's not still listening and recording anyway. I presume also if I click the mute button on the Echo, the mics do indeed turn off. But that's as far as my trust goes.
It's less about trusting that Amazon isn't recording random things. It's more about distrusting what they will do with this massive pile of data. Either now or in the far future.
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Like everything in life I guess. No immediate reason to fear it, until there is. And by then it will be too late. Murphy's law, Moore's law. It's not a problem now, until it is.
The question to ask now is, is the trade-off worth it? Or more specifically, what do you do with it that is truly useful? Not just asking for weather or math answers. But does it do something truly unique and important in your life? Productivity? Business use? Or just basic hands-free conveniences?
I'm interested in asking for general facts, weather, math, cooking conversions, spellings, Spotify music playing, bank balance, intercom, messaging to phones, alarms, custom skills. I'm sure more interesting things would also reveal themselves.That's why I mention the phones. If you are going to avoid the Echo, you must also avoid phones. If you aren't going to worry about phones, you can group the Echo with them and you are good.
It's a fine thing to be concerned about. Just don't make one a special case when they are identical.
They aren't identical, one is Amazon, one is Google.
They are if you look at the Google device. Or the Apple ones. Or an Amazon phone.
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
It's less about trusting that Amazon isn't recording random things. It's more about distrusting what they will do with this massive pile of data. Either now or in the far future.
Then the question isn't about Echo at all. The question is purely do you trust Amazon, which is a rather different question. You led with questioning the Echo and the device category. But that's not the issue. The issue is vendors. So only vendors, not devices or device types, should have been the topic.
If you want to know if Apple, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, et al. are trustable or not, that's a different discussion. What device is used to get that data isn't relevant.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
It's less about trusting that Amazon isn't recording random things. It's more about distrusting what they will do with this massive pile of data. Either now or in the far future.
Then the question isn't about Echo at all. The question is purely do you trust Amazon, which is a rather different question. You led with questioning the Echo and the device category. But that's not the issue. The issue is vendors. So only vendors, not devices or device types, should have been the topic.
If you want to know if Apple, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, et al. are trustable or not, that's a different discussion. What device is used to get that data isn't relevant.
My focus has changed with thread responses and other reading I've been doing today. The Echo is just a device. I question only whether it can be hacked, man in the middle, smart neighbor getting on my wifi, data properly encrypted.
Then I questioned what it records and when. I learned about the pre-record time, what is sent to Amazon, what is stored, and that I can delete histories and recordings if I want.
Then I questioned what is Amazon doing with it. We all know they will use it to train their AI, and learn more about my activity. But is the data shared, linked to me, used to advertise to me, or potential can be hacked, stolen, or taken by authorities?
There is already a case where a murder happened and police tried to subpoena Echo recording history, Amazon did refused to give up the recordings. I don't know if the legal stuff is still going on, but at least they aren't turning over personal data on a whim. Even for something like a murder investigation.
Then I questioned long term repercussions of these profiles. Will topics people discuss and think about today become crimes in the future? If people can say Trump said naughty words 35 years ago in a private conversation recorded without his knowledge in a trailer with his homies and thus he must be unfit for presidency, then what can decades of profile data with smart AI say about our futures? We'll know in 20 or 30 years I guess.
At the end of the day, anybody can be hacked for personal data. And the government probably already knows everything about me. But do we attempt to keep fighting our data-fat overlords and their convenience devices? Or just give in and live in the matrix and pump all our personal lives into their databases?
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My feeling on the matter...
