Is the Echo trustworthy?
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Here is the current graph.
The top one is the Echo Dot and the bottom is the Fire TV Stick.
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@jaredbusch said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@rojoloco said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
I feel like any of those devices are "always listening". Whether or not they can be trusted is kind of up to the purchaser.
I read somewhere on ML about how much data Amazon fire tv / fire stick sends and receives while "idle" (tons) and all I can think is that an Alexa or Echo would be doing the same. Constant communication with home base for reasons only known to Amazon. I have no need for an Echo, etc, but now I'm wanting a non-Amazon device for streaming stuff to my bedroom TV.
I wonder how much of this is true. I have an Echo Dot and a Fire TV Stick. Neither send any significant about of data up based on the traffic analysis graph in my ERL.
I have heard similar and never been able to corroborate it.
People said the same about Microsoft sending data from Windows 10. BUt those were all cases where people were saying XXX amount was blocked by their system. Well duh, of course the damn thing will keep attempting to send if you block after the fact. It doe snot know that.
I have a Google Home at my house and basically it randomly records phrases that are similar to what prompts the device (which is somewhat understandable) but at the same time there is nothing that I have said on those phrases such as Google or Hey Google. I review it every so often on my recorded data in my Gmail account.
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@jaredbusch interesting. I wish there had been a link to the article saying they sent lots of data, I'd like to see their methodology and numbers.
To me, the difference in being trustworthy is based on which devices have built in microphones. I'd wager that those mics can't be disabled, and that's where I draw the line personally. I'm good with typing my searches and keeping private conversation private.
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Applicable:
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@rojoloco said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@jaredbusch interesting. I wish there had been a link to the article saying they sent lots of data, I'd like to see their methodology and numbers.
To me, the difference in being trustworthy is based on which devices have built in microphones. I'd wager that those mics can't be disabled, and that's where I draw the line personally. I'm good with typing my searches and keeping private conversation private.
In a document somewhere or another, the open connection to Amazon isn't activated until the keyword is spoken.
So it's always listening but not always sending/recording. It only listens for "alexa" and that opens the phone call to Amazon where the command is sent and analyzed.The biggest tin foil fear is obviously whether Amazon (or any other middleman) is able to latch on those microphones or send phone calls to Amazon whether you ask it to or not.
What if Amazon decides that other keywords become important and secretly records when those are talked about?
I assume they are not doing that now, but this is one of those cases where it's like, it's so easy to do, it's just there, it's possible. And Murphy's law, if it can happen, then it eventually will. Neither humans nor corporations nor governments can be fully trusted. Especially not with something as tempting as always-on microphones that can record anything going on in any home in the world that has one connected.
And who are the gatekeepers and the watchman? I assume there are plenty of nerds interesting in monitoring outgoing traffic from these things and looking for foul play, but if connections are encrypted and all that? I don't know, who is monitoring the monitor? And who can take down Amazon if there is foul play?
I really want the thing, I'm ready to buy three of them, but the security concerns are overwhelming.
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
The biggest tin foil fear is obviously whether Amazon (or any other middleman) is able to latch on those microphones or send phone calls to Amazon whether you ask it to or not.
They CAN do that yes. But so can your phone.
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
I really want the thing, I'm ready to buy three of them, but the security concerns are overwhelming.
What's the concern over other similar devices? Only real difference is the audio quality of the device.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
I really want the thing, I'm ready to buy three of them, but the security concerns are overwhelming.
What's the concern over other similar devices? Only real difference is the audio quality of the device.
I assume when I turn off voice activated abilities on my phone, that's the end of it.
As well the physical barrier. For example to use Google voice, I have to literally press the voice button or whatever, to open it up to speaking.
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
I really want the thing, I'm ready to buy three of them, but the security concerns are overwhelming.
What's the concern over other similar devices? Only real difference is the audio quality of the device.
I assume when I turn off voice activated abilities on my phone, that's the end of it.
Why assume that with one device and not the other? Both are "supposed" to shut off. In both cases you have to blindly trust the vendor. What makes one different from the other?
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
Alexa / Echo is a phone now. Does that solve the problem by crossing the barrier into trusted?
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
I really want the thing, I'm ready to buy three of them, but the security concerns are overwhelming.
What's the concern over other similar devices? Only real difference is the audio quality of the device.
I assume when I turn off voice activated abilities on my phone, that's the end of it.
As well the physical barrier. For example to use Google voice, I have to literally press the voice button or whatever, to open it up to speaking.
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
You can mute the mic on the echos. It shuts the mic off until you press the button again.
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@stacksofplates said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
I really want the thing, I'm ready to buy three of them, but the security concerns are overwhelming.
What's the concern over other similar devices? Only real difference is the audio quality of the device.
I assume when I turn off voice activated abilities on my phone, that's the end of it.
As well the physical barrier. For example to use Google voice, I have to literally press the voice button or whatever, to open it up to speaking.
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
You can mute the mic on the echos. It shuts the mic off until you press the button again.
The Amazon Tap ONLY listens when you press a button, never listens even for the voice commands.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
Alexa / Echo is a phone now. Does that solve the problem by crossing the barrier into trusted?
No.
When I say "alexa", the Dot is going to answer.
When I say "hello Google", my phone does nothing.
But really, I don't trust Google any more than Amazon, so this is a general concern indeed. It applies to both.
I should say this. The security aspect isn't just about whether Amazon itself listens to more than I bargained for, because presumably we still have a data contract and whatever it's listening to and why, is still just part of normal Alexa services.
The second security question is what is done with the data. The profiling and data collection, which is perhaps a more scary subject. And who they can or will or be forced to share the data with in the future. There is even the concern of Amazon simply being hacked and such profiles stolen. That's not outside the realm of possibility.
I don't consider myself a tin foil person, but the general trend in western societies is getting more and more invasive. Especially when it comes to thought policing. Whether thinking the wrong thoughts or believing the wrong things is becoming legally punishable. What happens if Amazon has a record of a discussion in your home where Bruce Jenner was mentioned without using proper gender pronouns? Something that probably happens all the time and is nobodies business. Yet in Canada, not using requested genera pronouns is legally punishable.
If ever there is a time where thought policing becomes a thing in America, there will be zero microphones recording anything in my home. Not because I'm personally being naughty, but I also don't control what other people say who may be in the house; friends, parties, visitors, etc.
There are definitely countries in this world where criticizing the government leadership is a punishable offense. Wouldn't they just love to have microphones in the homes of their people?
It's all pretty alarming what the future holds for such devices.
Google and Amazon may be more or less trustworthy now. And our massive data profiles may not be useful now, but they could become useful or even incriminating in 10 years from now. Or useful if hacked and stolen.
That's why I really did wonder, if I don't want the Echo in a year or two, can I wipe my whole profile out? I don't know.
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
Alexa / Echo is a phone now. Does that solve the problem by crossing the barrier into trusted?
No.
When I say "alexa", the Dot is going to answer.
When I say "hello Google", my phone does nothing.
That only means it doesn't respond. Doesn't tell you it isn't listening. The thing you are worried about cannot be tested that way. That only tells you about legit use, which was never your concern.
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
That's why I really did wonder, if I don't want the Echo in a year or two, can I wipe my whole profile out? I don't know.
Assume no.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
Alexa / Echo is a phone now. Does that solve the problem by crossing the barrier into trusted?
No.
When I say "alexa", the Dot is going to answer.
When I say "hello Google", my phone does nothing.
That only means it doesn't respond. Doesn't tell you it isn't listening. The thing you are worried about cannot be tested that way. That only tells you about legit use, which was never your concern.
Also, your phone can respond hello google if you turn that setting on.
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See my Google home stats
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@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
Alexa / Echo is a phone now. Does that solve the problem by crossing the barrier into trusted?
No.
When I say "alexa", the Dot is going to answer.
When I say "hello Google", my phone does nothing.
That only means it doesn't respond. Doesn't tell you it isn't listening. The thing you are worried about cannot be tested that way. That only tells you about legit use, which was never your concern.
What you just wrote is basically "they can do completely sneaky things completely against terms of use and there is no way we can know about it".
Hence why this is such a good security debate to have. Who are the gatekeepers and the watchman? -
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Yes I trust that in the meantime the phone isn't just recording me and listening anyway.
Alexa / Echo is a phone now. Does that solve the problem by crossing the barrier into trusted?
No.
When I say "alexa", the Dot is going to answer.
When I say "hello Google", my phone does nothing.
That only means it doesn't respond. Doesn't tell you it isn't listening. The thing you are worried about cannot be tested that way. That only tells you about legit use, which was never your concern.
What you just wrote is basically "they can do completely sneaky things completely against terms of use and there is no way we can know about it".
Hence why this is such a good security debate to have. Who are the gatekeepers and the watchman?My point was this applies to all devices like this equally and singling one or one type out doesn't make sense. Your phone is an equal or greater risk to an Alexa, as it is so much more powerful and ubiquitous.
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Now if you want a broader discussion over how companies collect audio data, sure. But if the question is "Should I have security concerns about these devices" the simple answer is "no more than you do with a phone."
