Is the Echo trustworthy?
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
And for some reason, Amazon claims there is no way for hackers to activate a mic and get their own recordings.
Everyone says things like that. It is never true.
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
But other people have made claims too. Like one person said they were discussing babies together and suddenly diaper ads appeared in their Kindle. It really makes you wonder. Why would Amazon, or Google, NOT use your private conversations to advertise to you?
This is something we see happen all the time, too. But there are known ways that this happens and there isn't really a reason to connect this to the microphone. FB does this off of phones all of the time, and people wonder the same thing. ANd it might be listening - but would prove that the phones, not Echos, are the scary piece. But the real thing is, that Amazon has an insane ability to predict what you will discuss, even before you could guess it yourself.
Even 5-10 years ago, Amazon without microphones had better, earlier pregnancy detection than women could tell themselves. That's how good the AI was years ago with a fraction of the data that it has today.
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Like everything in life I guess. No immediate reason to fear it, until there is. And by then it will be too late. Murphy's law, Moore's law. It's not a problem now, until it is.
The question to ask now is, is the trade-off worth it? Or more specifically, what do you do with it that is truly useful? Not just asking for weather or math answers. But does it do something truly unique and important in your life? Productivity? Business use? Or just basic hands-free conveniences?
I'm interested in asking for general facts, weather, math, cooking conversions, spellings, Spotify music playing, bank balance, intercom, messaging to phones, alarms, custom skills. I'm sure more interesting things would also reveal themselves. -
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Like everything in life I guess. No immediate reason to fear it, until there is. And by then it will be too late. Murphy's law, Moore's law. It's not a problem now, until it is.
The question to ask now is, is the trade-off worth it? Or more specifically, what do you do with it that is truly useful? Not just asking for weather or math answers. But does it do something truly unique and important in your life? Productivity? Business use? Or just basic hands-free conveniences?
I'm interested in asking for general facts, weather, math, cooking conversions, spellings, Spotify music playing, bank balance, intercom, messaging to phones, alarms, custom skills. I'm sure more interesting things would also reveal themselves.That's why I mention the phones. If you are going to avoid the Echo, you must also avoid phones. If you aren't going to worry about phones, you can group the Echo with them and you are good.
It's a fine thing to be concerned about. Just don't make one a special case when they are identical.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Like everything in life I guess. No immediate reason to fear it, until there is. And by then it will be too late. Murphy's law, Moore's law. It's not a problem now, until it is.
The question to ask now is, is the trade-off worth it? Or more specifically, what do you do with it that is truly useful? Not just asking for weather or math answers. But does it do something truly unique and important in your life? Productivity? Business use? Or just basic hands-free conveniences?
I'm interested in asking for general facts, weather, math, cooking conversions, spellings, Spotify music playing, bank balance, intercom, messaging to phones, alarms, custom skills. I'm sure more interesting things would also reveal themselves.That's why I mention the phones. If you are going to avoid the Echo, you must also avoid phones. If you aren't going to worry about phones, you can group the Echo with them and you are good.
It's a fine thing to be concerned about. Just don't make one a special case when they are identical.
They aren't identical, one is Amazon, one is Google.
I think there is already a collective perception that Google is the data monster, profiling everything and serving ads. But I don't think people have the same perception about Amazon.
I might even say public perception of Amazon is much more safe.
There are people who actively try to avoid Google services due to their blatant open collecting of all data. But I don't know anybody who tries to stay away from Amazon services.Google has been exposed to data hoarding. Amazon not so much.
And yes I do trust when I turn off voice control on my phone, it's not still listening and recording anyway. I presume also if I click the mute button on the Echo, the mics do indeed turn off. But that's as far as my trust goes.
It's less about trusting that Amazon isn't recording random things. It's more about distrusting what they will do with this massive pile of data. Either now or in the far future.
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Like everything in life I guess. No immediate reason to fear it, until there is. And by then it will be too late. Murphy's law, Moore's law. It's not a problem now, until it is.
The question to ask now is, is the trade-off worth it? Or more specifically, what do you do with it that is truly useful? Not just asking for weather or math answers. But does it do something truly unique and important in your life? Productivity? Business use? Or just basic hands-free conveniences?
I'm interested in asking for general facts, weather, math, cooking conversions, spellings, Spotify music playing, bank balance, intercom, messaging to phones, alarms, custom skills. I'm sure more interesting things would also reveal themselves.That's why I mention the phones. If you are going to avoid the Echo, you must also avoid phones. If you aren't going to worry about phones, you can group the Echo with them and you are good.
It's a fine thing to be concerned about. Just don't make one a special case when they are identical.
They aren't identical, one is Amazon, one is Google.
They are if you look at the Google device. Or the Apple ones. Or an Amazon phone.
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
It's less about trusting that Amazon isn't recording random things. It's more about distrusting what they will do with this massive pile of data. Either now or in the far future.
Then the question isn't about Echo at all. The question is purely do you trust Amazon, which is a rather different question. You led with questioning the Echo and the device category. But that's not the issue. The issue is vendors. So only vendors, not devices or device types, should have been the topic.
If you want to know if Apple, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, et al. are trustable or not, that's a different discussion. What device is used to get that data isn't relevant.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
It's less about trusting that Amazon isn't recording random things. It's more about distrusting what they will do with this massive pile of data. Either now or in the far future.
Then the question isn't about Echo at all. The question is purely do you trust Amazon, which is a rather different question. You led with questioning the Echo and the device category. But that's not the issue. The issue is vendors. So only vendors, not devices or device types, should have been the topic.
If you want to know if Apple, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, et al. are trustable or not, that's a different discussion. What device is used to get that data isn't relevant.
My focus has changed with thread responses and other reading I've been doing today. The Echo is just a device. I question only whether it can be hacked, man in the middle, smart neighbor getting on my wifi, data properly encrypted.
Then I questioned what it records and when. I learned about the pre-record time, what is sent to Amazon, what is stored, and that I can delete histories and recordings if I want.
Then I questioned what is Amazon doing with it. We all know they will use it to train their AI, and learn more about my activity. But is the data shared, linked to me, used to advertise to me, or potential can be hacked, stolen, or taken by authorities?
There is already a case where a murder happened and police tried to subpoena Echo recording history, Amazon did refused to give up the recordings. I don't know if the legal stuff is still going on, but at least they aren't turning over personal data on a whim. Even for something like a murder investigation.
Then I questioned long term repercussions of these profiles. Will topics people discuss and think about today become crimes in the future? If people can say Trump said naughty words 35 years ago in a private conversation recorded without his knowledge in a trailer with his homies and thus he must be unfit for presidency, then what can decades of profile data with smart AI say about our futures? We'll know in 20 or 30 years I guess.
At the end of the day, anybody can be hacked for personal data. And the government probably already knows everything about me. But do we attempt to keep fighting our data-fat overlords and their convenience devices? Or just give in and live in the matrix and pump all our personal lives into their databases?
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My feeling on the matter...
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
I question only whether it can be hacked
Definitely will be if it hasn't already.
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I keep thinking of the scene in "I, Robot" where the robots wouldn't let anyone leave their house.
Thank goodness I think i can take down a Dot.
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@brrabill said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
I keep thinking of the scene in "I, Robot" where the robots wouldn't let anyone leave their house.
Thank goodness I think i can take down a Dot.
I think I can take down a Dot, I don't know about an Alexa tho.
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
It's less about trusting that Amazon isn't recording random things. It's more about distrusting what they will do with this massive pile of data. Either now or in the far future.
Then the question isn't about Echo at all. The question is purely do you trust Amazon, which is a rather different question. You led with questioning the Echo and the device category. But that's not the issue. The issue is vendors. So only vendors, not devices or device types, should have been the topic.
If you want to know if Apple, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, et al. are trustable or not, that's a different discussion. What device is used to get that data isn't relevant.
My focus has changed with thread responses and other reading I've been doing today. The Echo is just a device. I question only whether it can be hacked, man in the middle, smart neighbor getting on my wifi, data properly encrypted.
Definitely, no question. All devices CAN be hacked. Some are good and well made and hard to hack, some are shit and trivial to hack. But all can be hacked.
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@travisdh1 said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@brrabill said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
I keep thinking of the scene in "I, Robot" where the robots wouldn't let anyone leave their house.
Thank goodness I think i can take down a Dot.
I think I can take down a Dot, I don't know about an Alexa tho.
Alexa is the name of the logic of the Dot. There is no thing called Alexa, a Dot is as much Alexa as any other Alexa based device.
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@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Then I questioned long term repercussions of these profiles. Will topics people discuss and think about today become crimes in the future? If people can say Trump said naughty words 35 years ago in a private conversation recorded without his knowledge in a trailer with his homies and thus he must be unfit for presidency, then what can decades of profile data with smart AI say about our futures? We'll know in 20 or 30 years I guess.
At the end of the day, anybody can be hacked for personal data. And the government probably already knows everything about me. But do we attempt to keep fighting our data-fat overlords and their convenience devices? Or just give in and live in the matrix and pump all our personal lives into their databases?
This is the stuff that I mean about phones, though. We already have this risk all over the place. My desktop, laptop, phones, tablets and countless other devices, heck even my video game equipment, are all just as equally poised and risky as my Echo. But unlike all of those, Amazon has specifically focused on securing the Echo around this attack vector.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Then I questioned long term repercussions of these profiles. Will topics people discuss and think about today become crimes in the future? If people can say Trump said naughty words 35 years ago in a private conversation recorded without his knowledge in a trailer with his homies and thus he must be unfit for presidency, then what can decades of profile data with smart AI say about our futures? We'll know in 20 or 30 years I guess.
At the end of the day, anybody can be hacked for personal data. And the government probably already knows everything about me. But do we attempt to keep fighting our data-fat overlords and their convenience devices? Or just give in and live in the matrix and pump all our personal lives into their databases?
This is the stuff that I mean about phones, though. We already have this risk all over the place. My desktop, laptop, phones, tablets and countless other devices, heck even my video game equipment, are all just as equally poised and risky as my Echo. But unlike all of those, Amazon has specifically focused on securing the Echo around this attack vector.
Any light to shed on this regarding Google Home?
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@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@travisdh1 said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@brrabill said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
I keep thinking of the scene in "I, Robot" where the robots wouldn't let anyone leave their house.
Thank goodness I think i can take down a Dot.
I think I can take down a Dot, I don't know about an Alexa tho.
Alexa is the name of the logic of the Dot. There is no thing called Alexa, a Dot is as much Alexa as any other Alexa based device.
I should know to append /joke or something for you anymore shouldn't I.
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@nerdydad said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@scottalanmiller said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
@guyinpv said in Is the Echo trustworthy?:
Then I questioned long term repercussions of these profiles. Will topics people discuss and think about today become crimes in the future? If people can say Trump said naughty words 35 years ago in a private conversation recorded without his knowledge in a trailer with his homies and thus he must be unfit for presidency, then what can decades of profile data with smart AI say about our futures? We'll know in 20 or 30 years I guess.
At the end of the day, anybody can be hacked for personal data. And the government probably already knows everything about me. But do we attempt to keep fighting our data-fat overlords and their convenience devices? Or just give in and live in the matrix and pump all our personal lives into their databases?
This is the stuff that I mean about phones, though. We already have this risk all over the place. My desktop, laptop, phones, tablets and countless other devices, heck even my video game equipment, are all just as equally poised and risky as my Echo. But unlike all of those, Amazon has specifically focused on securing the Echo around this attack vector.
Any light to shed on this regarding Google Home?
it's really all the same. All equipment is at risk of being hacked. You have two pieces to "trust"...
- Trusting the security design of the hardware and software.
- Trusting the vendor with what they do with your data.
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I'm sure there is some open source Alexa-like project out there somewhere. Voice controlled AI we can run on our own in-home servers and train ourselves, all data kept safe under our pillows. And if there is not such a thing, there should be.
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