Unitrends and Office365
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@BRRABill said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@wirestyle22 said in Unitrends and Office365:
When is doing a backup incorrect and when is not doing a backup correct in this situation?
When is doing an EXTRA backup. That's the biggest question.
Where are you getting the "Extra" backup from? Especially in cases of O365. If MS has a backup, but won't let you request it... Is it really a backup (since you can't put your hands on it if you need it)?
This is always the thing.
For me, the case for backup is
a) if a hacker gets access to your admin creds and destroys everything
NOTE: @scottalanmiller will say if they wanted to do this, they could just destroy your backups, as well, but that's not the case if they are stored on a separate off-site systemb) a user deletes something, and it filters out of the site recycle bin
Right. I classify that as "a backup". I'm trying to figure out why Scott used the term "extra".
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@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@BRRABill said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@wirestyle22 said in Unitrends and Office365:
When is doing a backup incorrect and when is not doing a backup correct in this situation?
When is doing an EXTRA backup. That's the biggest question.
Where are you getting the "Extra" backup from? Especially in cases of O365. If MS has a backup, but won't let you request it... Is it really a backup (since you can't put your hands on it if you need it)?
This is always the thing.
For me, the case for backup is
a) if a hacker gets access to your admin creds and destroys everything
NOTE: @scottalanmiller will say if they wanted to do this, they could just destroy your backups, as well, but that's not the case if they are stored on a separate off-site systemb) a user deletes something, and it filters out of the site recycle bin
Right. I classify that as "a backup". I'm trying to figure out why Scott used the term "extra".
Because there is already a backup taken by the vendor. The question here is not "backup vs no backup". It's "that backup vs. this back and that backup."
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@scottalanmiller said
Because there is already a backup taken by the vendor. The question here is not "backup vs no backup". It's "that backup vs. this back and that backup."
This is the answer always given, which I find a bit unhelpful to people looking for answers.
In any of the scenarios I mention, this answer is not helpful, and will leave you without your files.
I guess if you want to figure out the ramifications of that to your specific business, sure.
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@BRRABill said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said
Because there is already a backup taken by the vendor. The question here is not "backup vs no backup". It's "that backup vs. this back and that backup."
This is the answer always given, which I find a bit unhelpful to people looking for answers.
In any of the scenarios I mention, this answer is not helpful, and will leave you without your files.
I guess if you want to figure out the ramifications of that to your specific business, sure.
But not in the scenarios that many people care about. So it is VERY helpful, just not to the use case you are focused on. Remember, normal people don't look to retrieve deleted emails and a good majority of people have local copies of email anyway. While your scenario is a real one, you assume that it is the only one. But only if it is the knowledge that the system is backed up and protected not helpful.
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@BRRABill said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said
Because there is already a backup taken by the vendor. The question here is not "backup vs no backup". It's "that backup vs. this back and that backup."
This is the answer always given, which I find a bit unhelpful to people looking for answers.
In any of the scenarios I mention, this answer is not helpful, and will leave you without your files.
If this is your concern, you should be very careful not to ask the question "is there a backup?", because there is, but that isn't what you want to know.
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Also of importance for the scenario at hand would be how frequent backups are taken and how they are retained. Even if there were backups that captured every email (most backups would not) what if only the most current copy is kept and only for a day, or only a few hours? How often could you, even then, retrieve a lost email from, say, yesterday? "Is there backups" is not a very useful question in general. Data continuity is more complex than that.
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@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@BRRABill said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@wirestyle22 said in Unitrends and Office365:
When is doing a backup incorrect and when is not doing a backup correct in this situation?
When is doing an EXTRA backup. That's the biggest question.
Where are you getting the "Extra" backup from? Especially in cases of O365. If MS has a backup, but won't let you request it... Is it really a backup (since you can't put your hands on it if you need it)?
This is always the thing.
For me, the case for backup is
a) if a hacker gets access to your admin creds and destroys everything
NOTE: @scottalanmiller will say if they wanted to do this, they could just destroy your backups, as well, but that's not the case if they are stored on a separate off-site systemb) a user deletes something, and it filters out of the site recycle bin
Right. I classify that as "a backup". I'm trying to figure out why Scott used the term "extra".
Because there is already a backup taken by the vendor. The question here is not "backup vs no backup". It's "that backup vs. this back and that backup."
If I cannot use the backup that is taken by the vendor whenever I wish, that does not constitute a backup, imho. That means if a hacker gets in and deletes all my stuff, and then empties the recycle bin that I no longer have my stuff. If I can't use it, it doesn't count, lol.
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@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
If I cannot use the backup that is taken by the vendor whenever I wish, that does not constitute a backup, imho.
Why? End users can't use IT's backups, do you claim that because "someone" isn't the backup admin that things are not backups? Does that mean that you have to answer to the CEO that you "have no backups" because the janitor cannot restore whenever he desires?
You are redefining backups to mean something totally different than the term means. No one anywhere assumed that end user control of the backup is a necessary component of something being a backup. And no enterprise turns control of restores totally over to end users, and most turn none over. But it is still considered a backup.
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@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
That means if a hacker gets in and deletes all my stuff, and then empties the recycle bin that I no longer have my stuff.
But if the drives fail and the data is lost, it gets restored. You are cherry picking use cases to claim there is no backup, when it is simple to prove that there is one.
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@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
If I cannot use the backup that is taken by the vendor whenever I wish, that does not constitute a backup, imho.
Why? End users can't use IT's backups, do you claim that because "someone" isn't the backup admin that things are not backups? Does that mean that you have to answer to the CEO that you "have no backups" because the janitor cannot restore whenever he desires?
You are redefining backups to mean something totally different than the term means. No one anywhere assumed that end user control of the backup is a necessary component of something being a backup. And no enterprise turns control of restores totally over to end users, and most turn none over. But it is still considered a backup.
An end-user can call the IT Department / Backup admin, and say "I whoopsied a file and emptied my recycle bin. Can I get yesterday's backup restored to my folder?"
Can you do that with O365?
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
That means if a hacker gets in and deletes all my stuff, and then empties the recycle bin that I no longer have my stuff.
But if the drives fail and the data is lost, it gets restored. You are cherry picking use cases to claim there is no backup, when it is simple to prove that there is one.
I get that if the drives fail, the data is lost, and Microsoft restores THEIR backup.
But can you call Microsoft and say "My user whoopsied a file and deleted their recycle bin on their O365 account. Can you restore the file from yesterday?"
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@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
If I cannot use the backup that is taken by the vendor whenever I wish, that does not constitute a backup, imho.
Why? End users can't use IT's backups, do you claim that because "someone" isn't the backup admin that things are not backups? Does that mean that you have to answer to the CEO that you "have no backups" because the janitor cannot restore whenever he desires?
You are redefining backups to mean something totally different than the term means. No one anywhere assumed that end user control of the backup is a necessary component of something being a backup. And no enterprise turns control of restores totally over to end users, and most turn none over. But it is still considered a backup.
An end-user can call the IT Department / Backup admin, and say "I whoopsied a file and emptied my recycle bin. Can I get yesterday's backup restored to my folder?"
Can you do that with O365?
You can call. And just like an IT department, they will often say "no".
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@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
If I cannot use the backup that is taken by the vendor whenever I wish, that does not constitute a backup, imho.
Why? End users can't use IT's backups, do you claim that because "someone" isn't the backup admin that things are not backups? Does that mean that you have to answer to the CEO that you "have no backups" because the janitor cannot restore whenever he desires?
You are redefining backups to mean something totally different than the term means. No one anywhere assumed that end user control of the backup is a necessary component of something being a backup. And no enterprise turns control of restores totally over to end users, and most turn none over. But it is still considered a backup.
An end-user can call the IT Department / Backup admin, and say "I whoopsied a file and emptied my recycle bin. Can I get yesterday's backup restored to my folder?"
Can you do that with O365?
You can call. And just like an IT department, they will often say "no".
Why would an IT department refuse to restore an end-users's file? That makes zero sense to me.
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@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
But if the drives fail and the data is lost, it gets restored. You are cherry picking use cases to claim there is no backup, when it is simple to prove that there is one.
I get that if the drives fail, the data is lost, and Microsoft restores THEIR backup.
But can you call Microsoft and say "My user whoopsied a file and deleted their recycle bin on their O365 account. Can you restore the file from yesterday?"
Right, you are cherry picking. You know that there is a backup. And you know that if the system fails you get access to it. You want a very specific type of access to a specific type of backup. You are trying to apply the term "backup" which is very broad, to a very specific thing.
Try this... what if we said that the system had "email". And you keep saying "but I didn't get an email from my mom today, therefore there is no email." We can prove that you have email, because we are emailing you and you are receiving it. but if you don't get an email from your mom, you refuse to acknowledge the system because it doesn't have the specific email that you want.
I understand completely the desire for a specific type of protection, but trying to redefine backups to mean what you want isn't going to work.
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@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
But if the drives fail and the data is lost, it gets restored. You are cherry picking use cases to claim there is no backup, when it is simple to prove that there is one.
I get that if the drives fail, the data is lost, and Microsoft restores THEIR backup.
But can you call Microsoft and say "My user whoopsied a file and deleted their recycle bin on their O365 account. Can you restore the file from yesterday?"
Right, you are cherry picking. You know that there is a backup. And you know that if the system fails you get access to it. You want a very specific type of access to a specific type of backup. You are trying to apply the term "backup" which is very broad, to a very specific thing.
Try this... what if we said that the system had "email". And you keep saying "but I didn't get an email from my mom today, therefore there is no email." We can prove that you have email, because we are emailing you and you are receiving it. but if you don't get an email from your mom, you refuse to acknowledge the system because it doesn't have the specific email that you want.
I understand completely the desire for a specific type of protection, but trying to redefine backups to mean what you want isn't going to work.
Just because I didn't get an email from my mother today doesn't mean I have no email -- especially not when I'm communicating with you via that same email.
That scenario isn't going to fly... I need a better example so I can see your train of thought. -
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
Why would an IT department refuse to restore an end-users's file? That makes zero sense to me.
It's a common thing, just ask end users. Also, and I've seen this a lot, end users assume "has a backup" means "every file, in every version, ever" is stored somewhere even when there is nothing of the sort. Backups might only be taken once a day or once a week and only stored for so long. Even if you have total control and let end users do their own restores "is it backed up" is not a simple thing to answer from any specific use case.
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@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@dafyre said in Unitrends and Office365:
But if the drives fail and the data is lost, it gets restored. You are cherry picking use cases to claim there is no backup, when it is simple to prove that there is one.
I get that if the drives fail, the data is lost, and Microsoft restores THEIR backup.
But can you call Microsoft and say "My user whoopsied a file and deleted their recycle bin on their O365 account. Can you restore the file from yesterday?"
Right, you are cherry picking. You know that there is a backup. And you know that if the system fails you get access to it. You want a very specific type of access to a specific type of backup. You are trying to apply the term "backup" which is very broad, to a very specific thing.
Try this... what if we said that the system had "email". And you keep saying "but I didn't get an email from my mom today, therefore there is no email." We can prove that you have email, because we are emailing you and you are receiving it. but if you don't get an email from your mom, you refuse to acknowledge the system because it doesn't have the specific email that you want.
I understand completely the desire for a specific type of protection, but trying to redefine backups to mean what you want isn't going to work.
Just because I didn't get an email from my mother today doesn't mean I have no email -- especially not when I'm communicating with you via that same email.
Just because you can't control restoring one file you want doesn't mean that a backup isn't sitting there. It's exactly the same. You don't like HOW it is backed up or HOW you get to restore and are using your desire for certain access as a definition for if something is backed up. Just like not getting the email you want would be claiming that there is no email.
Clearly email exists, but no more clearly than a backup obviously exists and we can't state otherwise.
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Think of it this way....
If the hardware dies, do the files get restored from somewhere?
Answer: yes, of course
From where?
From, oh, right, from the backup.
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@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@BRRABill said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said
Because there is already a backup taken by the vendor. The question here is not "backup vs no backup". It's "that backup vs. this back and that backup."
This is the answer always given, which I find a bit unhelpful to people looking for answers.
In any of the scenarios I mention, this answer is not helpful, and will leave you without your files.
If this is your concern, you should be very careful not to ask the question "is there a backup?", because there is, but that isn't what you want to know.
This is very misleading - I know what you, Scott are driving at. But for a normal business person, they shouldn't have to drill someone with a million questions to make sure that things are recoverable. Granted, perhaps they should be required to ask more than simply - is there a backup. Instead they should perhaps ask - what is the restore time in the case of cryptoware? What is the recover point (in time) options?
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The Short, Short version: If I or my users cannot restore from it, I cannot consider it a backup.
Webster's Dictionary, Backup... See section 5a:
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/backup?s=tIf I cannot use it, then I cannot consider it my own backup
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@Dashrender said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said in Unitrends and Office365:
@BRRABill said in Unitrends and Office365:
@scottalanmiller said
Because there is already a backup taken by the vendor. The question here is not "backup vs no backup". It's "that backup vs. this back and that backup."
This is the answer always given, which I find a bit unhelpful to people looking for answers.
In any of the scenarios I mention, this answer is not helpful, and will leave you without your files.
If this is your concern, you should be very careful not to ask the question "is there a backup?", because there is, but that isn't what you want to know.
This is very misleading - I know what you, Scott are driving at. But for a normal business person, they shouldn't have to drill someone with a million questions to make sure that things are recoverable.
Yes, they should. This is something you should never feel that anyone has the ability to skip. It's never excusable to gloss over data protection to matter what level a business person is at.
