SATA vs NL-SAS vs SAS For New Array
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@BRRABill said:
@John-Nicholson said:
@BRRABill It is also CRAZY slow (like Low latency tape is what we call it). Useless for most workloads without a large cache in front of it.
Then how is it so many people here are using it for their servers?
Perspective. I believe @John-Nicholson works ina large place running tons of workloads on each host.
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@John-Nicholson said:
With De-duplication and Compression and RAID 5/6 Flash drives are cheaper than 10K RPM drives. We did the price comparisons with VSAN 6.2 came out and 10K is officially "dead" unless all your data is encrypted or something.
What are you using for De-Dup and compression? Is that something native in hypervisors now? if not, it adds to the cost column.
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@JaredBusch said:
@BRRABill said:
@John-Nicholson said:
@BRRABill It is also CRAZY slow (like Low latency tape is what we call it). Useless for most workloads without a large cache in front of it.
Then how is it so many people here are using it for their servers?
Perspective. I believe @John-Nicholson works ina large place running tons of workloads on each host.
Agreed - HDD might be dead for large companies - big players, but SMB - we have at least a year left, maybe 2.
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@Dashrender said:
@John-Nicholson said:
With De-duplication and Compression and RAID 5/6 Flash drives are cheaper than 10K RPM drives. We did the price comparisons with VSAN 6.2 came out and 10K is officially "dead" unless all your data is encrypted or something.
What are you using for De-Dup and compression? Is that something native in hypervisors now? if not, it adds to the cost column.
There's dedupe in Win2K12 at the OS level, assuming you are deduplicating NTFS file systems. If you are using encryption, that's the only way you will be able to dedupe data.
We use Pure Storage SANs, which support native dedupe at the block level. And it appears that VSAN supports block level dedupe as well.
https://blogs.vmware.com/virtualblocks/2016/02/10/whats-new-vmware-virtual-san-6-2/
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@PSX_Defector said:
@Dashrender said:
@John-Nicholson said:
With De-duplication and Compression and RAID 5/6 Flash drives are cheaper than 10K RPM drives. We did the price comparisons with VSAN 6.2 came out and 10K is officially "dead" unless all your data is encrypted or something.
What are you using for De-Dup and compression? Is that something native in hypervisors now? if not, it adds to the cost column.
There's dedupe in Win2K12 at the OS level, assuming you are deduplicating NTFS file systems. If you are using encryption, that's the only way you will be able to dedupe data.
We use Pure Storage SANs, which support native dedupe at the block level. And it appears that VSAN supports block level dedupe as well.
https://blogs.vmware.com/virtualblocks/2016/02/10/whats-new-vmware-virtual-san-6-2/
Well, you're paying a LOT for those hardware platform - so at that point the extra space gained makes the SSD definitely more worthwhile performance wise. But not many SMB's are dealing with those things.
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@Dashrender said:
@PSX_Defector said:
@Dashrender said:
@John-Nicholson said:
With De-duplication and Compression and RAID 5/6 Flash drives are cheaper than 10K RPM drives. We did the price comparisons with VSAN 6.2 came out and 10K is officially "dead" unless all your data is encrypted or something.
What are you using for De-Dup and compression? Is that something native in hypervisors now? if not, it adds to the cost column.
There's dedupe in Win2K12 at the OS level, assuming you are deduplicating NTFS file systems. If you are using encryption, that's the only way you will be able to dedupe data.
We use Pure Storage SANs, which support native dedupe at the block level. And it appears that VSAN supports block level dedupe as well.
https://blogs.vmware.com/virtualblocks/2016/02/10/whats-new-vmware-virtual-san-6-2/
Well, you're paying a LOT for those hardware platform - so at that point the extra space gained makes the SSD definitely more worthwhile performance wise. But not many SMB's are dealing with those things.
Which is very true. I work for a multi-tenant environment, so it's worth a few bucks to get the performance edge on those things. Dedupe is just an added bonus.
Which also brings up the fact that one should be hosting with us! We have the hardware one can only dream about. Why try to keep up when you can spend the cash on hosting which will take care of all of that for you?
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@PSX_Defector said:
@Dashrender said:
@PSX_Defector said:
@Dashrender said:
@John-Nicholson said:
With De-duplication and Compression and RAID 5/6 Flash drives are cheaper than 10K RPM drives. We did the price comparisons with VSAN 6.2 came out and 10K is officially "dead" unless all your data is encrypted or something.
What are you using for De-Dup and compression? Is that something native in hypervisors now? if not, it adds to the cost column.
There's dedupe in Win2K12 at the OS level, assuming you are deduplicating NTFS file systems. If you are using encryption, that's the only way you will be able to dedupe data.
We use Pure Storage SANs, which support native dedupe at the block level. And it appears that VSAN supports block level dedupe as well.
https://blogs.vmware.com/virtualblocks/2016/02/10/whats-new-vmware-virtual-san-6-2/
Well, you're paying a LOT for those hardware platform - so at that point the extra space gained makes the SSD definitely more worthwhile performance wise. But not many SMB's are dealing with those things.
Which is very true. I work for a multi-tenant environment, so it's worth a few bucks to get the performance edge on those things. Dedupe is just an added bonus.
Which also brings up the fact that one should be hosting with us! We have the hardware one can only dream about. Why try to keep up when you can spend the cash on hosting which will take care of all of that for you?
Which is what company? The profile here doesn't say, and it's kinda silly to not get a good self-promotion in with that!
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@BRRABill said:
I guess my thinking was faster is always better.
If money was not an object, would this be true?
Money is always an object
Reliability and capacity are big deals too. Most people see those as the biggest factors.
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SSDs are almost always just for database servers. Things like applications servers and AD DCs really never touch the disk and things like email and file servers often can't leverage the SSD IOPS for pushes files to clients.
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@travisdh1 said:
@PSX_Defector said:
@Dashrender said:
@PSX_Defector said:
@Dashrender said:
@John-Nicholson said:
With De-duplication and Compression and RAID 5/6 Flash drives are cheaper than 10K RPM drives. We did the price comparisons with VSAN 6.2 came out and 10K is officially "dead" unless all your data is encrypted or something.
What are you using for De-Dup and compression? Is that something native in hypervisors now? if not, it adds to the cost column.
There's dedupe in Win2K12 at the OS level, assuming you are deduplicating NTFS file systems. If you are using encryption, that's the only way you will be able to dedupe data.
We use Pure Storage SANs, which support native dedupe at the block level. And it appears that VSAN supports block level dedupe as well.
https://blogs.vmware.com/virtualblocks/2016/02/10/whats-new-vmware-virtual-san-6-2/
Well, you're paying a LOT for those hardware platform - so at that point the extra space gained makes the SSD definitely more worthwhile performance wise. But not many SMB's are dealing with those things.
Which is very true. I work for a multi-tenant environment, so it's worth a few bucks to get the performance edge on those things. Dedupe is just an added bonus.
Which also brings up the fact that one should be hosting with us! We have the hardware one can only dream about. Why try to keep up when you can spend the cash on hosting which will take care of all of that for you?
Which is what company? The profile here doesn't say, and it's kinda silly to not get a good self-promotion in with that!
For various reasons, I don't mention who I work for, be it my previous employer Big Red V or my current one. Gotta maintain separation of professional and personal life.
Let's just say it's not Amazon, but if you follow cloud hosting, you would know who we are.
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@brianlittlejohn said:
I run 7200 SATA almost everywhere...
Here as well, we are after space & price not speed
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I see 7200 SATA very commonly. NL-SAS is becoming very popular as it is roughly identical in price these days and has a little performance boost, especially in virtualization scenarios.
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@PSX_Defector said:
@travisdh1 said:
@PSX_Defector said:
@Dashrender said:
@PSX_Defector said:
@Dashrender said:
@John-Nicholson said:
With De-duplication and Compression and RAID 5/6 Flash drives are cheaper than 10K RPM drives. We did the price comparisons with VSAN 6.2 came out and 10K is officially "dead" unless all your data is encrypted or something.
What are you using for De-Dup and compression? Is that something native in hypervisors now? if not, it adds to the cost column.
There's dedupe in Win2K12 at the OS level, assuming you are deduplicating NTFS file systems. If you are using encryption, that's the only way you will be able to dedupe data.
We use Pure Storage SANs, which support native dedupe at the block level. And it appears that VSAN supports block level dedupe as well.
https://blogs.vmware.com/virtualblocks/2016/02/10/whats-new-vmware-virtual-san-6-2/
Well, you're paying a LOT for those hardware platform - so at that point the extra space gained makes the SSD definitely more worthwhile performance wise. But not many SMB's are dealing with those things.
Which is very true. I work for a multi-tenant environment, so it's worth a few bucks to get the performance edge on those things. Dedupe is just an added bonus.
Which also brings up the fact that one should be hosting with us! We have the hardware one can only dream about. Why try to keep up when you can spend the cash on hosting which will take care of all of that for you?
Which is what company? The profile here doesn't say, and it's kinda silly to not get a good self-promotion in with that!
For various reasons, I don't mention who I work for, be it my previous employer Big Red V or my current one. Gotta maintain separation of professional and personal life.
Let's just say it's not Amazon, but if you follow cloud hosting, you would know who we are.
I thought you were still with the Big Red V?
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@Jason said:
@PSX_Defector said:
@travisdh1 said:
@PSX_Defector said:
@Dashrender said:
@PSX_Defector said:
@Dashrender said:
@John-Nicholson said:
With De-duplication and Compression and RAID 5/6 Flash drives are cheaper than 10K RPM drives. We did the price comparisons with VSAN 6.2 came out and 10K is officially "dead" unless all your data is encrypted or something.
What are you using for De-Dup and compression? Is that something native in hypervisors now? if not, it adds to the cost column.
There's dedupe in Win2K12 at the OS level, assuming you are deduplicating NTFS file systems. If you are using encryption, that's the only way you will be able to dedupe data.
We use Pure Storage SANs, which support native dedupe at the block level. And it appears that VSAN supports block level dedupe as well.
https://blogs.vmware.com/virtualblocks/2016/02/10/whats-new-vmware-virtual-san-6-2/
Well, you're paying a LOT for those hardware platform - so at that point the extra space gained makes the SSD definitely more worthwhile performance wise. But not many SMB's are dealing with those things.
Which is very true. I work for a multi-tenant environment, so it's worth a few bucks to get the performance edge on those things. Dedupe is just an added bonus.
Which also brings up the fact that one should be hosting with us! We have the hardware one can only dream about. Why try to keep up when you can spend the cash on hosting which will take care of all of that for you?
Which is what company? The profile here doesn't say, and it's kinda silly to not get a good self-promotion in with that!
For various reasons, I don't mention who I work for, be it my previous employer Big Red V or my current one. Gotta maintain separation of professional and personal life.
Let's just say it's not Amazon, but if you follow cloud hosting, you would know who we are.
I thought you were still with the Big Red V?
Nope, they shitcanned three quarters of the US based staff last year. I walked out $10K richer, a new job in two days, and a pay raise.
If you are still hosting with them, flee as fast as your contract will allow you. They recently went through another round of shitcannings, this time it was management. They lost great people, and is no longer the same company I knew.
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The server I am looking to put these drives into has 3.5 inch bays, so I could use either 3.5 or 2.5 inch disks.
Is there a preferred one to go with in this scenario? Or does size really not matter, so to speak? Is one preferred?
Sometimes on xByte the 2.5 drive is cheaper than the 3.5 which is why I ask...
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@BRRABill said:
The server I am looking to put these drives into has 3.5 inch bays, so I could use either 3.5 or 2.5 inch disks.
Is there a preferred one to go with in this scenario? Or does size really not matter, so to speak? Is one preferred?
Sometimes on xByte the 2.5 drive is cheaper than the 3.5 which is why I ask...
2.5 has faster seek because... well it sweeps less disk!
2.5 is generally more $/GB
2.5 generally uses less power
2.5 @7200rpm is a pretty dang fast drive per $/GB3.5 comes in larger sizes
3.5 comes in 15k rpm (2.5 used to come in 10k IIRC but they were rare)
3.5 comes in "hybrid" SSD chunk addedSpecifically for your scenario I'd go 3.5 PURELY because 3.5 to 2.5 adapter thing-a-ma-whatsits can be expensive, rattle and fiddly.
Were I spec'ing out a server I'd consider 2.5 for some scenarios.
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I priced out all the scenarios I am looking at.
Basically, we only have about 300GB across our physical servers ATM, and I do not see it growing very quickly. Pretty sure I could get away with 900GB. The VMs on this server will be a file server, and a non-Exchange mail server (MDaemon). I've been watching the IOPS on the mail server, and they are pretty low.
Here are the potential options. Do these numbers seem about right? They don't take into consideration any cache. (This server has a PERC 710.)
Be curious to hear which way people would go if this was your server. Go for the most IOPS since storage isn't need? Go with a little extra storage and lower cost?
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@BRRABill I'd go the 500's in OBR10.... but.......
You could get 3 cheap 960GB SSD for that money and RAID5 them....
Also that seems like a lot for 500gb drives, $75 a pop? shrug
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@BRRABill said:
I priced out all the scenarios I am looking at.
Basically, we only have about 300GB across our physical servers ATM, and I do not see it growing very quickly. Pretty sure I could get away with 900GB. The VMs on this server will be a file server, and a non-Exchange mail server (MDaemon). I've been watching the IOPS on the mail server, and they are pretty low.
Here are the potential options. Do these numbers seem about right? They don't take into consideration any cache. (This server has a PERC 710.)
Be curious to hear which way people would go if this was your server. Go for the most IOPS since storage isn't need? Go with a little extra storage and lower cost?
Is that cost the total for all the drives that would be used?
If IOPS needs are met, I'd go with less expensive. What would the need to spend more money be?
@MattSpeller said:
@BRRABill I'd go the 500's in OBR10.... but.......
You could get 3 cheap 960GB SSD for that money and RAID5 them....
Also that seems like a lot for 500gb drives, $75 a pop? shrug
Depends, are we talking consumer or enterprise class drives at that $75 each?
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@travisdh1 said:
Depends, are we talking consumer or enterprise class drives at that $75 each?
He does not mention SAS so I was assuming 7200rpm SATA commodity disposable spinny rust.
