Common Core haters
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@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
I think the standards for what we consider to be 'average' would greatly increase if we paid gifted teachers to teach our children.
You may be correct but I don't think so. I mean, it would help slightly, but much? Not likely. In every large population you need a lot of workers and very few thinkers. Tiny places can work hard and skew this (Luxembourg) but large places cannot much.
The vast majority of jobs will not ever benefit from a great degree of education and the majority of people will be happiest not having jobs that would require them to do so. Just look at IT! We think that we are an elite field, but read SW and sadly, it seems that most people are offended if you even suggest that they need to learn something or think critically about it. They want to do a minimum effort, learn things by rote and never have to think about what they are doing.
Just like we said in another thread - to us the idea of not striving to improve ourselves is terrible. But to the average person, striving to improve themselves is what is terrible. It's painful and wasted effort.
You don't have to be an intellectual though. As I said, this applies to vocational school to teach skill based jobs. My Dad (RIP) wasn't a book smart man but he did welding, carpentry, heating and air conditioning, electrical work, you name it he could do it. He was a genius in his own way. I think that the vast majority of the population has something they can excel at.
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@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
I think the standards for what we consider to be 'average' would greatly increase if we paid gifted teachers to teach our children.
You may be correct but I don't think so. I mean, it would help slightly, but much? Not likely. In every large population you need a lot of workers and very few thinkers. Tiny places can work hard and skew this (Luxembourg) but large places cannot much.
The vast majority of jobs will not ever benefit from a great degree of education and the majority of people will be happiest not having jobs that would require them to do so. Just look at IT! We think that we are an elite field, but read SW and sadly, it seems that most people are offended if you even suggest that they need to learn something or think critically about it. They want to do a minimum effort, learn things by rote and never have to think about what they are doing.
Just like we said in another thread - to us the idea of not striving to improve ourselves is terrible. But to the average person, striving to improve themselves is what is terrible. It's painful and wasted effort.
You don't have to be an intellectual though. As I said, this applies to vocational school to teach skill based jobs. My Dad (RIP) wasn't a book smart man but he did welding, carpentry, heating and air conditioning, electrical work, you name it he could do it. I think that the vast majority of the population has something they can excel at.
yes, if high schools would have serious vocational programs (and some do) I think that that is a great thing. There are tons and tons of fields (IT included) that could be taught at that age and produce ready to work kids at 16 years old ready to start in the field.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Imagine... ten years of "why aren't you practising more" and no matter how much I did always getting the same thing. It's like the slow kid being told to "study harder" when they have a serious learning disability. I really thought that I was lazy but couldn't put in more time realistically and it just sucked. Suddenly I went from the worst student ever to the star pupil and ended up doing guitar performance at university - even after my high school music teacher and my guidance counselor told me I couldn't even get into college.
I thought when I was younger that I had a learning disability because I asked so many questions. I realized later on that the teachers weren't using language specific enough for me. There was too much variability in their speech and I was thinking of all the possibilities of what they meant. I took AP courses in HS. You never know what you're capable of.
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@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Imagine... ten years of "why aren't you practising more" and no matter how much I did always getting the same thing. It's like the slow kid being told to "study harder" when they have a serious learning disability. I really thought that I was lazy but couldn't put in more time realistically and it just sucked. Suddenly I went from the worst student ever to the star pupil and ended up doing guitar performance at university - even after my high school music teacher and my guidance counselor told me I couldn't even get into college.
I thought when I was younger that I had a learning disability because I asked so many questions. I realized later on that the teachers weren't using language specific enough for me. There was too much variability in their speech and I was thinking of all the possibilities of what they meant. I took AP courses in HS. You never know what you're capable of.
Sounds like you went to an American public school. Glad you graduated, you could have just as easily been stuck into special ed, which can almost prepare you to be a lifelong fast food employee.
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As someone with 3 very bad learning disabilities. Standard school sucks. However I had 2 awesome teachers that taught me how I learn. And to take how I was taught and to make sense of it all. Of course the other 20 teachers I had before that just called me mentally retarded to my face. To say school sucked for me is a under statement.
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And for many, I think just working makes more sense. How many people who, for example, work at the front desk of a hotel as an adult (I did this, I think it's a decent job) would have benefited by starting in that career or one related to it at 14 and getting experience and money when they were younger and contributing to a skill that they could use later in life. They could be fully trained and experienced and ready to be fully qualified adult workers by 16 or 17 and have a long career with a vastly higher lifetime income than the current system which encourages then to not start that career until they have a college degree of worthless information at keeps them out of the workforce until they are 22. That's eight years of making money traded in and four years of losing money. That's huge.
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@RojoLoco said:
@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Imagine... ten years of "why aren't you practising more" and no matter how much I did always getting the same thing. It's like the slow kid being told to "study harder" when they have a serious learning disability. I really thought that I was lazy but couldn't put in more time realistically and it just sucked. Suddenly I went from the worst student ever to the star pupil and ended up doing guitar performance at university - even after my high school music teacher and my guidance counselor told me I couldn't even get into college.
I thought when I was younger that I had a learning disability because I asked so many questions. I realized later on that the teachers weren't using language specific enough for me. There was too much variability in their speech and I was thinking of all the possibilities of what they meant. I took AP courses in HS. You never know what you're capable of.
Sounds like you went to an American public school. Glad you graduated, you could have just as easily been stuck into special ed, which can almost prepare you to be a lifelong fast food employee.
Honestly it was my Grandfather and my Dad who saw greatness in me. Without them I never would've achieved anything.
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@scottalanmiller Vocational training would have made all the difference for lots of people. I would have thrived doing that instead of giving up on highschool and quitting.
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@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Imagine... ten years of "why aren't you practising more" and no matter how much I did always getting the same thing. It's like the slow kid being told to "study harder" when they have a serious learning disability. I really thought that I was lazy but couldn't put in more time realistically and it just sucked. Suddenly I went from the worst student ever to the star pupil and ended up doing guitar performance at university - even after my high school music teacher and my guidance counselor told me I couldn't even get into college.
I thought when I was younger that I had a learning disability because I asked so many questions. I realized later on that the teachers weren't using language specific enough for me. There was too much variability in their speech and I was thinking of all the possibilities of what they meant. I took AP courses in HS. You never know what you're capable of.
I learned early on that my teachers did not know the material. They had often learned it by rote and any questions or clarification would take them off of the rails.
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@Minion-Queen said:
@scottalanmiller Vocational training would have made all the difference for lots of people. I would have thrived doing that instead of giving up on highschool and quitting.
They had it, but not for many useful things. Auto mechanic was about it.
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@wirestyle22 said:
@RojoLoco said:
@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Imagine... ten years of "why aren't you practising more" and no matter how much I did always getting the same thing. It's like the slow kid being told to "study harder" when they have a serious learning disability. I really thought that I was lazy but couldn't put in more time realistically and it just sucked. Suddenly I went from the worst student ever to the star pupil and ended up doing guitar performance at university - even after my high school music teacher and my guidance counselor told me I couldn't even get into college.
I thought when I was younger that I had a learning disability because I asked so many questions. I realized later on that the teachers weren't using language specific enough for me. There was too much variability in their speech and I was thinking of all the possibilities of what they meant. I took AP courses in HS. You never know what you're capable of.
Sounds like you went to an American public school. Glad you graduated, you could have just as easily been stuck into special ed, which can almost prepare you to be a lifelong fast food employee.
Honestly it was my Grandfather and my Dad who saw greatness in me. Without them I never would've achieved anything.
I thank my Mom for knowing that sending me to public school would have been tragic (she was a public school teacher and knew that I was smarter than 90% of the teachers in the county by the time I was 5).
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@scottalanmiller said:
And for many, I think just working makes more sense. How many people who, for example, work at the front desk of a hotel as an adult (I did this, I think it's a decent job) would have benefited by starting in that career or one related to it at 14 and getting experience and money when they were younger and contributing to a skill that they could use later in life. They could be fully trained and experienced and ready to be fully qualified adult workers by 16 or 17 and have a long career with a vastly higher lifetime income than the current system which encourages then to not start that career until they have a college degree of worthless information at keeps them out of the workforce until they are 22. That's eight years of making money traded in and four years of losing money. That's huge.
That's actually how the Amish around here do things, and it works well. My younger cousins are getting married and paying cash for a house by about the same time I was getting my Associates degree.
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@RojoLoco said:
@wirestyle22 said:
@RojoLoco said:
@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
Imagine... ten years of "why aren't you practising more" and no matter how much I did always getting the same thing. It's like the slow kid being told to "study harder" when they have a serious learning disability. I really thought that I was lazy but couldn't put in more time realistically and it just sucked. Suddenly I went from the worst student ever to the star pupil and ended up doing guitar performance at university - even after my high school music teacher and my guidance counselor told me I couldn't even get into college.
I thought when I was younger that I had a learning disability because I asked so many questions. I realized later on that the teachers weren't using language specific enough for me. There was too much variability in their speech and I was thinking of all the possibilities of what they meant. I took AP courses in HS. You never know what you're capable of.
Sounds like you went to an American public school. Glad you graduated, you could have just as easily been stuck into special ed, which can almost prepare you to be a lifelong fast food employee.
Honestly it was my Grandfather and my Dad who saw greatness in me. Without them I never would've achieved anything.
I thank my Mom for knowing that sending me to public school would have been tragic (she was a public school teacher and knew that I was smarter than 90% of the teachers in the county by the time I was 5).
sadly I had the opposite experience. Got sent to a private school where the teachers were terrible and the principle was a child abuser. It was a pretty hellish experience. Moving to public school when I was 14 was the greatest day. It was so amazing.
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@scottalanmiller said:
And for many, I think just working makes more sense. How many people who, for example, work at the front desk of a hotel as an adult (I did this, I think it's a decent job) would have benefited by starting in that career or one related to it at 14 and getting experience and money when they were younger and contributing to a skill that they could use later in life. They could be fully trained and experienced and ready to be fully qualified adult workers by 16 or 17 and have a long career with a vastly higher lifetime income than the current system which encourages then to not start that career until they have a college degree of worthless information at keeps them out of the workforce until they are 22. That's eight years of making money traded in and four years of losing money. That's huge.
I think we should be teaching social interaction in school a lot more as well. That benefits you in basically every field (and in life) unless you're coding in a room alone. I see adults every day that have no social skills.
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Is there evidence that a private school education is better then a public one? Everything I've read, although not much, has pointed to it being the same or worse.
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@travisdh1 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
And for many, I think just working makes more sense. How many people who, for example, work at the front desk of a hotel as an adult (I did this, I think it's a decent job) would have benefited by starting in that career or one related to it at 14 and getting experience and money when they were younger and contributing to a skill that they could use later in life. They could be fully trained and experienced and ready to be fully qualified adult workers by 16 or 17 and have a long career with a vastly higher lifetime income than the current system which encourages then to not start that career until they have a college degree of worthless information at keeps them out of the workforce until they are 22. That's eight years of making money traded in and four years of losing money. That's huge.
That's actually how the Amish around here do things, and it works well. My younger cousins are getting married and paying cash for a house by about the same time I was getting my Associates degree.
I kind of did it on my own without the help of the system. The one thing that I learned from my terrible youth experience was that adults were idiots and didn't care about you and the system was not there for your good.
I managed to get into IT at 13 for a real company and did all kinds of interesting things through my teen years from just grunt restaurant and nursing home work to being a real photojournalist, getting into hotels and more. I did so many things. I totally bucked the system and it worked. It opened so many doors.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Education is not universal. Parents of kids in public school are often passionate about the school and its budget. However, only parents of academically gifted children tend to be really passionate about the educational value. Parents of average kids want sports, music, arts, safety (everyone wants that), extra curricular stuff, community building and all kinds of non-academic things because their kids are not going to benefit from those good teachers and high end classes - bottom line, most people are average, welcome to math. And the parents of struggling students care about special needs programs. Very poor families focus on food programs and job skills.
this is why we should have focused schools. IE vocations schools, Art schools, Dance etc..
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@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
And for many, I think just working makes more sense. How many people who, for example, work at the front desk of a hotel as an adult (I did this, I think it's a decent job) would have benefited by starting in that career or one related to it at 14 and getting experience and money when they were younger and contributing to a skill that they could use later in life. They could be fully trained and experienced and ready to be fully qualified adult workers by 16 or 17 and have a long career with a vastly higher lifetime income than the current system which encourages then to not start that career until they have a college degree of worthless information at keeps them out of the workforce until they are 22. That's eight years of making money traded in and four years of losing money. That's huge.
I think we should be teaching social interaction in school a lot more as well. That benefits you in basically every field unless you're coding in a room alone. I see adults every day that have no social skills.
They claim they already do... even tho they leave it to become closer to a Lord of the Flies situation than a controlled one.
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@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
And for many, I think just working makes more sense. How many people who, for example, work at the front desk of a hotel as an adult (I did this, I think it's a decent job) would have benefited by starting in that career or one related to it at 14 and getting experience and money when they were younger and contributing to a skill that they could use later in life. They could be fully trained and experienced and ready to be fully qualified adult workers by 16 or 17 and have a long career with a vastly higher lifetime income than the current system which encourages then to not start that career until they have a college degree of worthless information at keeps them out of the workforce until they are 22. That's eight years of making money traded in and four years of losing money. That's huge.
I think we should be teaching social interaction in school a lot more as well. That benefits you in basically every field (and in life) unless you're coding in a room alone. I see adults every day that have no social skills.
Yes, the current school system actively teaches the worst interactions. Paul Graham has a great essay on it in "Hackers and Painters" where he talks about how the school system treats students akin to criminals. They are detained in a thirteen year sentence for something that they did not do and thrown into a social system with guards that often abuse them or don't care for them and fellow inmates with no adult social skills and it becomes Lord of the Flies. Kids don't learn how to behave as adults, they learn how to behave as inmates.
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@coliver said:
Is there evidence that a private school education is better then a public one? Everything I've read, although not much, has pointed to it being the same or worse.
Mine was far worse. It can be better. Good ones are very good. Bad ones are very bad.
Homeschool takes that to the next level. Good ones are SO good. Bad ones are SO bad.
