Burned by Eschewing Best Practices
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**** Dell!
This weekend if I get a chance (gonna be busy grading my back yard for a new garage and 12kw solar array I'm building), I'll cut together the LOOOOOOOOOONG line of deranged emails that went between myself, Dell, and my PCM rep. Some of them... well, I got pretty snarky in. Needless to say, those tool bags went running with their tails between their legs and in the end stopped responding.
Most of my problem is that I'd been out of IT for a while and deep in the heavy construction and asphalt manufacturing industry as a plant tech. Out there, when someone tries to smooth talk you and treats you like you're a sucker, you tell them to **** OFF and you get in their face about it. So I've been trying to tone it down a few notches now that I'm back in a slightly more civilized industry. But it's REALLY hard when you get down to business with 95% of people that work for Dell. They are literally asshat extraordinaires, second only to Lenovo asshat extraordinaires. My first account rep from Dell was seriously the only guy I ever got along with there (Travis Best), he was awesome and got promoted the next year, and it was all downhill from there from one dumbass to the next.
So yeah, we bought a R510 from Mike at xByte for a little over $4k, made it our 3rd esx host with 48TB of local storage instead of pointing it at the two eql arrays on the production rack. Moved UEB9 to it, and are in the process of moving the DR eql array to the production rack.
So, instead of spending $33k (really $11k after I flipped a shit at the quote me and my PCM rep were given from Dell and they backed it down and we did a deal registration) ((22,000 DOLLAR ****ING PRICE REDUCTION BY GETTING PISSED OVER ONLY ONE EMAIL?!??!?!?!?! WHAT THE ****!)) We ended up with an extra R610 host that I can now use to build our new infrastructure for a company split/merger/restructuring/etc that we're in process with, don't have 12TB of eql drives collecting dust on a shelf, got 48TB of backup storage, doubled backup speeds (R510 has much faster clocks and UEB is single threaded), and a bunch of other little bonuses.
All for a little over $4k. Don't know what I'd do without you guys like @scottalanmiller pushing us to think a little outside the box and not get pushed around by SAN/NAS/general vendors who have their bottom line as what's best for the customer.
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@eneeldssi welcome to the community and thanks for jumping in here!
We keep Dell at an arms length via xByte for all things as well. Dell direct reps are terrible.
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@eneeldssi I've got a brand new next gen machine from them once because I complained about their support regarding a very ugly bug where onboard NICs stopped working after an unpredictable amount of time when running ESXi. Has been escalated over 6 or 7 instances over the course of 3 months. Can't tell you the exact sum, but it was a little above the price of a Snickers plus shipping.
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@thwr that's pretty awesome. A pretty nice "sorry" prize.
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@scottalanmiller said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@thwr that's pretty awesome. A pretty nice "sorry" prize.
Yepp, must admit that. But it was a really ugly situation. I've bought the original machine with 4 hours on-site and it took them nearly 3 months to get it fixed. So the prize might be cool, but a lawsuit would have been much more expensive I guess.
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@thwr said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@scottalanmiller said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@thwr that's pretty awesome. A pretty nice "sorry" prize.
Yepp, must admit that. But it was a really ugly situation. I've bought the original machine with 4 hours on-site and it took them nearly 3 months to get it fixed. So the prize might be cool, but a lawsuit would have been much more expensive I guess.
True, that's a bunch of crap. But at least you got something nice out of it.
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@eneeldssi Great examples of Why we don't take advice from vendors., no, really, never, ever.
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@travisdh1 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@eneeldssi Great examples of Why we don't take advice from vendors., no, really, never, ever.
I get the same "look" when offering advice for free, as a completely outside party. As if I'm not a vendor or reseller my advice must be skewed.
How do you guys recommend getting around this kind of stubbornness?
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@DustinB3403 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@travisdh1 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@eneeldssi Great examples of Why we don't take advice from vendors., no, really, never, ever.
I get the same "look" when offering advice for free, as a completely outside party. As if I'm not a vendor or reseller my advice must be skewed.
How do you guys recommend getting around this kind of stubbornness?
I ask questions that show them the error of their ways.
User: Did you break my computer?
Me: Do you accuse your mechanic of breaking your car when you bring it in to get fixed? -
@wirestyle22 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@DustinB3403 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@travisdh1 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@eneeldssi Great examples of Why we don't take advice from vendors., no, really, never, ever.
I get the same "look" when offering advice for free, as a completely outside party. As if I'm not a vendor or reseller my advice must be skewed.
How do you guys recommend getting around this kind of stubbornness?
I ask questions that show them the error of their ways.
User: Did you break my computer?
Me: Do you accuse your mechanic of breaking your car when you bring it in to get fixed?As good as an example as that is, it's not the same scenario of advice offering. If an SMB was having a conversation with a vendor and I happen to be there, and over hear the conversation. I'm then tagged to answer some questions, but my responses have the "oh you're insane" face.
When my proposal comes in for far under what the vendor might be proposing.
Using the classic IPOD spew, I've been asked to sit in and listen, and when asked to respond and I call the proposal a pile of horse waste, I'm the one getting the dirty stares from the person who might actually be buying the horse pile.
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@DustinB3403 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@wirestyle22 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@DustinB3403 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@travisdh1 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@eneeldssi Great examples of Why we don't take advice from vendors., no, really, never, ever.
I get the same "look" when offering advice for free, as a completely outside party. As if I'm not a vendor or reseller my advice must be skewed.
How do you guys recommend getting around this kind of stubbornness?
I ask questions that show them the error of their ways.
User: Did you break my computer?
Me: Do you accuse your mechanic of breaking your car when you bring it in to get fixed?As good as an example as that is, it's not the same scenario of advice offering. If an SMB was having a conversation with a vendor and I happen to be there, and over hear the conversation. I'm then tagged to answer some questions, but my responses have the "oh you're insane" face.
When my proposal comes in for far under what the vendor might be proposing.
Using the classic IPOD spew, I've been asked to sit in and listen, and when asked to respond and I call the proposal a pile of horse waste, I'm the one getting the dirty stares from the person who might actually be buying the horse pile.
In that scenario you can't really expect to teach a paranoid business owner. There are still people in the world that think spending more money equals a better product. We can't change the world. I just wish those people luck and go on about my way. Not having expectations benefits you in these situations I find.
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@DustinB3403 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@travisdh1 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@eneeldssi Great examples of Why we don't take advice from vendors., no, really, never, ever.
I get the same "look" when offering advice for free, as a completely outside party. As if I'm not a vendor or reseller my advice must be skewed.
How do you guys recommend getting around this kind of stubbornness?
Talking to rational people.
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@wirestyle22 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@DustinB3403 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@wirestyle22 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@DustinB3403 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@travisdh1 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@eneeldssi Great examples of Why we don't take advice from vendors., no, really, never, ever.
I get the same "look" when offering advice for free, as a completely outside party. As if I'm not a vendor or reseller my advice must be skewed.
How do you guys recommend getting around this kind of stubbornness?
I ask questions that show them the error of their ways.
User: Did you break my computer?
Me: Do you accuse your mechanic of breaking your car when you bring it in to get fixed?As good as an example as that is, it's not the same scenario of advice offering. If an SMB was having a conversation with a vendor and I happen to be there, and over hear the conversation. I'm then tagged to answer some questions, but my responses have the "oh you're insane" face.
When my proposal comes in for far under what the vendor might be proposing.
Using the classic IPOD spew, I've been asked to sit in and listen, and when asked to respond and I call the proposal a pile of horse waste, I'm the one getting the dirty stares from the person who might actually be buying the horse pile.
In that scenario you can't really expect to teach a paranoid business owner. There are still people in the world that think spending more money equals a better product. We can't change the world. I just wish those people luck and go on about my way. Not having expectations benefits you in these situations I find.
That pretty much sums it up. Partly there is a skill to it, learning how to address irrationality, forcing them to explain their logic, making them state mistakes, leading them to the right conclusion. It's just a skill that some people have. Presenting a compelling argument, with numbers that they agree to that are not disputable is key. But there is no universal answer, lots and lots of companies are not rational and the average one will fail. It is just how it is. the average person will drive instead of flying no matter how much more dangerous it is and how much you can prove it statistically as well as logically. They just don't care.
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@DustinB3403 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
Using the classic IPOD spew, I've been asked to sit in and listen, and when asked to respond and I call the proposal a pile of horse waste, I'm the one getting the dirty stares from the person who might actually be buying the horse pile.
Instead of calling the solution a pile of horse waste, do you ask the presenters how they overcome obstacles? For example you might ask some of these questions...
- What is the value of the extra, high cost hardware to the business when redundancy is reduced - basically, how does this save the business money while more is being spent.
- How do they overcome the natural risks inherent in a single point of failure given that dual controllers is a known risk; and have paperwork on that risk ready to go.
- Ask them how they overcome the risks of SAM's dependency chain risk additions.
- Ask them how since what they are proposing adds risk & adds cost how they feel it could be viably suggested. What factors justify being more costly and more risky. Ask them, not the customer, where the improved value is.
- Ask them why moving from a redundant design to a non-redundant one with more cost and more things to fail and more dependencies is justifiable.
- Ask them what happens when the SAN fails.
- Ask them why they feel that the servers are fragile when they are provably safe, and why the SAN is safe when it is obviously risky.
Let them answer, instead of accusing them. Your presentation makes all of the difference.
If you are really, really confident, then you can play the "what kind of fool do you think my boss is" card. Stand with, not against, management. Imply that your management would never be fooled by such an obvious marketing tactic. Don't put management on the emotional defensive.
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You can also point out things like....
"We obviously see how this benefits you personally, you are doubling the quote while pushing all of the risk on to us while making us dependent on you for support. No question there, we know why this is your go to solution. But we aren't interested in that, what we want to know is where does this benefit us given that clearly it's not for performance, safety or cost. I'm uncertain why you would feel comfortable pitching this without a clear RIO."
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A totally different tactic.... find the materials on the IPOD, getting advice from vendors, Emperor's New Storage, risk assessment, etc. and compile them into a report. Make a nice PDF. GIve a pre-vendor presentation on just how much you know the IPOD, why it makes no sense, why it should never be proposed and how you need everyone to be on the lookout for a predatory vendor that might try to play them to make a big score because they were not ready ahead of time. Be the expert in the vendor's likely bad solution rather than the defensive guy that got blindsided and doesn't like his proposal being questions.
You want them to know, without a doubt, that you knew more about the vendor's likely proposed solution than the vendor does and make sure that your management understands that you considered it, evaluated it and knew that it was a ridiculous option before it get proposed, not after.
Then management can be mad with you, rather than being caught not understanding the discussion.
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@Reid-Cooper I've been asked to sit in, not to question. Meaning I don't get the option to raise those questions.
As if I'm supposed to be a fly on the wall, yet when we go to have a private discussion regarding the very same things you've mentioned in "Ask them . . . " that the result is "well you should've asked when they were here"
I totally get what you're saying and it is good advice, but my point was more about "What should be done to not be a passive person in the meetings upfront?"
IT Guy/Sales Person battle royal!
If that makes sense?
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@DustinB3403 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
@Reid-Cooper I've been asked to sit in, not to question. Meaning I don't get the option to raise those questions.
Then I guess the real answer is... you are there only to be kept up to date, your opinion is not requested. If they don't care about your input, just sit there and watch them get sold down the river. No skin off your back.
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@DustinB3403 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:
I totally get what you're saying and it is good advice, but my point was more about "What should be done to not be a passive person in the meetings upfront?"
If you are not allowed to talk in the meeting, then nothing.
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Man, that would kill me. I'm about trying to help offer the best solution, and when I see someone leading someone off in the wrong direction, I feel a moral obligation to call out someone's shit.
If the people can't handle that, or don't want you to open your mouth, you shouldn't be there.
Not that I'm suggesting to hurt yourself financially - the world we live in tells us to make our money where we can, because if you don't someone else will swoop in and take what should have been yours... but damn, if they really don't want you to talk, why do they even have you there?
