Chromebook Shipments Up 67%
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
OK It's probably not the same cost as buying the $100 upgrade to Windows Pro, but if it's a subscription, there's a good chance it will be the same or higher over the life of the machine.
It's a service, not exactly the same as a subscription. But it is monthly pricing, of course, because it is a completely hosted service. But it is not comparable to Windows Pro, it is comparable to the entire AD infrastructure. It replaced AD, GPO, Windows Pro, VPN, etc. all in one go. And does so with all hardware and software hosted and managed so it replaces a lot more than just licensing.
So do you think it's fair to compare a $165 Chromebook device to a Windows Pro PC? Shouldn't the comparison be "Chromebook + Management Console Vs. Windows Pro + AD" or "Chromebook vs Windows Home". That seems to be a more like for like comparison.
My point about Office 365 is that your enterprise data is cloud based and controlled by user accounts which are managed within Office 365, not via AD. So a Windows Home PC may make sense, in a way that it wouldn't with on-premise servers.
I'm interested to know pricing.
EDIT: Ah, I've seen the $30 post. Well, that's pretty cheap.
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@Dashrender said:
Yep, if you can/want to live in a web only world - that is pretty good.
Of course, if you live in a Windows world you need Windows. But if you are building from scratch (greenfield) a modern system has a ton of advantages.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
So do you think it's fair to compare a $165 Chromebook device to a Windows Pro PC?
Yes I do. Because Chromebooks only come in "manageable" versions. Windows needs to be Pro to be manageable. The cost of the base unit is directly comparable only when Windows is Pro. The cost of management is separate in both cases.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
My point about Office 365 is that your enterprise data is cloud based and controlled by user accounts which are managed within Office 365, not via AD. So a Windows Home PC may make sense, in a way that it wouldn't with on-premise servers.
Ah, okay. But that's unrelated to the discussion, isn't it? That's application level and not system level, which is what we are discussing. You can use Google Apps, Zoho, Office 365 or other application products. That is a separate discussion from system management, isn't it? They are completely independent. Unless you are saying that application level controls are enough and you don't consider system management needed anymore, then I guess it matters.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
So do you think it's fair to compare a $165 Chromebook device to a Windows Pro PC?
Yes I do. Because Chromebooks only come in "manageable" versions. Windows needs to be Pro to be manageable. The cost of the base unit is directly comparable only when Windows is Pro. The cost of management is separate in both cases.
Because of things like this, I think MS will be forced into a single SKU at some point. If they are really losing that much income, they can raise the price on the CAL instead - which frankly is where it should be in the first place.
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@Dashrender said:
Because of things like this, I think MS will be forced into a single SKU at some point. If they are really losing that much income, they can raise the price on the CAL instead - which frankly is where it should be in the first place.
That might make sense. The Home / Pro thing has always been really weird and convoluted and has always been a joking point from every other OS since 1992. However, it is one of the ways that Microsoft punishes stupid businesses for running to Best Buy and buying a machine there. I think that the overall ecosystem might actually like having that feature.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
Because of things like this, I think MS will be forced into a single SKU at some point. If they are really losing that much income, they can raise the price on the CAL instead - which frankly is where it should be in the first place.
That might make sense. The Home / Pro thing has always been really weird and convoluted and has always been a joking point from every other OS since 1992. However, it is one of the ways that Microsoft punishes stupid businesses for running to Best Buy and buying a machine there. I think that the overall ecosystem might actually like having that feature.
I agree that BB machines suck - but how does sorta forcing businesses/users to buy better equipment help th ecosystem?
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My big thing on the Chrome versus MS is that clients never ask what will work in their environments. They do go to BestBuy or Staples and just buy stuff. 99% of the time neither will work cause they never get Pro versions when they go out and buy. We are constantly dealing with the aftermath of bad decisions.
Chromebooks are cheap no doubt there. But 99.9% of the time they are not going to work for the client cause they have a Windows Server and a printer that just wont connect and work well. Though I have gotten pretty good at finding work arounds.
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@Dashrender said:
I agree that BB machines suck - but how does sorta forcing businesses/users to buy better equipment help th ecosystem?
Teaches them to talk to IT pros rather than bypassing IT for purchasing and just making them work with whatever they buy. As someone who has run IT for business that do this over and over, I actually appreciate the incredibly slap that Microsoft gives them. Without it, they would never, ever learn. With it, they still struggle. They think that every purchase will somehow be "different than last time."
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
I agree that BB machines suck - but how does sorta forcing businesses/users to buy better equipment help th ecosystem?
Teaches them to talk to IT pros rather than bypassing IT for purchasing and just making them work with whatever they buy. As someone who has run IT for business that do this over and over, I actually appreciate the incredibly slap that Microsoft gives them. Without it, they would never, ever learn. With it, they still struggle. They think that every purchase will somehow be "different than last time."
Or users think that Windows 8 is different from Windows 7 in terms of Pro vs Home. I've seen that too.
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@thanksaj said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
I agree that BB machines suck - but how does sorta forcing businesses/users to buy better equipment help th ecosystem?
Teaches them to talk to IT pros rather than bypassing IT for purchasing and just making them work with whatever they buy. As someone who has run IT for business that do this over and over, I actually appreciate the incredibly slap that Microsoft gives them. Without it, they would never, ever learn. With it, they still struggle. They think that every purchase will somehow be "different than last time."
Or users think that Windows 8 is different from Windows 7 in terms of Pro vs Home. I've seen that too.
Just as an example.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Ah, okay. But that's unrelated to the discussion, isn't it? That's application level and not system level, which is what we are discussing. You can use Google Apps, Zoho, Office 365 or other application products. That is a separate discussion from system management, isn't it? They are completely independent. Unless you are saying that application level controls are enough and you don't consider system management needed anymore, then I guess it matters.
It's related to the discussion that I'm having in my head! Apart from niche applications, Chrome only starts to make sense when you consider it with Google Apps. The two seem so closely related that you can't discuss one without the other. I don't see a great need to manage Chrome devices because of their simplicity. They're really just a browser that user use to connect to Google Apps. All your management control is done within Google Apps.
Now this starts to break down with Windows Home, because Windows is a lot more powerful. Because it's powerful, it's easier for a user to screw up. Because you can't trust a user, you need to manage them. That becomes difficult without AD. But not impossible. I'd want to install a locked-down version of Windows, and only release features that are really useful. So it's almost running in kiosk mode. Now I'd only really consider this if I preferred Office 365 to Google Apps, which I do.
Also, some of the management you talk about can be done very cheaply on Windows Home PCs with 3rd party applications, like LogMeIn or GFI. I'm sure there are others. AD is overkill in a lot of environments, and I'm sure there's a middle ground between Chrome and full blown AD that Windows Home can fulfil.
And for niche applications, well some of the things I currently use Chrome for would work just as well, if not better, with Windows Home. It's only cost that is making me choose Chrome at the moment.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
It's related to the discussion that I'm having in my head! Apart from niche applications, Chrome only starts to make sense when you consider it with Google Apps.
Oh, I don't feel that this is true at all. I love Chromebooks, I'm not a fan of Google Apps. I see why a lot of people like Google Apps, but not me. I don't see them as tied together in any way.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
The two seem so closely related that you can't discuss one without the other.
I never implicitly discuss them together. When I say Chromebooks, I am definitely not asserting that Google Apps are a foregone conclusion in any way.
I see why many people combine the two. Just like people combine tons of things in the Windows ecosystem that actually are not implied, just because it is common and a single vendor. But Chromebooks are great without Google Apps, as long as you have all web apps.
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@scottalanmiller said:
$30 per device. Cheaper by far than anything Windows has.
That's the education licence. It's $150 for business. That's not particularly cheap.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
They're really just a browser that user use to connect to Google Apps. All your management control is done within Google Apps.
Just a browser yes. Just to connect to Google Apps, now. These is a full platform and Google Apps is just one tiny piece of any application ecosystem and that's only if you choose to use GA at all.
This is like saying that Windows only purpose is to run Office. Most people run a lot more than Office and tons of people don't run Office at all.
Google Apps is not that big of a suite. I can't imagine any business using only it.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@scottalanmiller said:
$30 per device. Cheaper by far than anything Windows has.
That's the education licence. It's $150 for business. That's not particularly cheap.
Ah, that's confusing. Still super cheap compared to Windows Pro, AD, running your own server, etc.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
Now this starts to break down with Windows Home, because Windows is a lot more powerful. Because it's powerful, it's easier for a user to screw up. Because you can't trust a user, you need to manage them. That becomes difficult without AD. But not impossible. I'd want to install a locked-down version of Windows, and only release features that are really useful. So it's almost running in kiosk mode. Now I'd only really consider this if I preferred Office 365 to Google Apps, which I do.
Windows is more exposed, it is true. It is a tradeoff. Users rarely can leverage that power for good, only to hurt themselves (outside of gaming where it is just needed, for now.)
If you look at Windows RT, that was an attempt by Microsoft to mimic Chromium. But it was horribly done. One worked beautifully, the other was useless.
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@scottalanmiller said:
When I say Chromebooks, I am definitely not asserting that Google Apps are a foregone conclusion in any way.
How easy is it to manage Chromebooks without Google Apps? You need a Google account to access a Chromebook, and the management console will not work with free Google accounts, so I wonder, do you need Google Apps? How does user level management work without it?
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@Carnival-Boy said:
Also, some of the management you talk about can be done very cheaply on Windows Home PCs with 3rd party applications, like LogMeIn or GFI. I'm sure there are others. AD is overkill in a lot of environments, and I'm sure there's a middle ground between Chrome and full blown AD that Windows Home can fulfil.
LogMeIn is not cheap to have any management features. It's actually quite expensive. GFI is lessso, but still not cheap. Windows Home is good when you want zero management (except maybe AV) and no user control and just a platform for running software.
The middle ground is more likely UNIX machines where you get all the power of Windows at less cost.
