Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion



  • In light of Sonos and What's App dropping support for older hardware, I'm curious what others think about forced hardware/software retirement?

    What, if anything could be done (that would likely be accepted by the public) to solve the issue.



  • @Dashrender said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    In light of Sonos and What's App dropping support for older hardware, I'm curious what others think about forced hardware/software retirement?

    What, if anything could be done (that would likely be accepted by the public) to solve the issue.

    I don't know about Sonos, but What's App is dropping support for iOS 8... That is fucking ancient. I assumed that the Android version was comparably ancient.



  • Yup, iOS 8.
    0d72c239-c973-4b88-837d-c51ad8378de5-image.png

    iOS 8 was supported on these devices.
    7f188681-9629-4b72-b00e-82ef136e9bee-image.png

    The newest device on that list is the iPhone 6. That is the LAST device not able to be upgraded to iOS 13 (current version of iOS) as the iPhone 6s can go all the way to iOS 13.

    That said, the iPhone 6 can still upgrade to iOS 12.
    And the iPhone 4s, the oldest to support iOS 8 does support iOS 9. There should be zero fucking issues here from the iOS world. Anyone who still uses anything as old as an iPhone 4 does not use What's App anyway.

    Note: The iPhone 4 released in 2010 and was discontinued in 2013. So What's App is discontinuing support for phones that are 7-10 years old.



  • @Dashrender said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    In light of Sonos and What's App dropping support for older hardware, I'm curious what others think about forced hardware/software retirement?

    What, if anything could be done (that would likely be accepted by the public) to solve the issue.

    We are literally moving shops to Ubuntu from Windows for this reason.



  • @JaredBusch said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    Yup, iOS 8.
    0d72c239-c973-4b88-837d-c51ad8378de5-image.png

    iOS 8 was supported on these devices.
    7f188681-9629-4b72-b00e-82ef136e9bee-image.png

    The newest device on that list is the iPhone 6. That is the LAST device not able to be upgraded to iOS 13 (current version of iOS) as the iPhone 6s can go all the way to iOS 13.

    That said, the iPhone 6 can still upgrade to iOS 12.
    And the iPhone 4s, the oldest to support iOS 8 does support iOS 9. There should be zero fucking issues here from the iOS world. Anyone who still uses anything as old as an iPhone 4 does not use What's App anyway.

    Note: The iPhone 4 released in 2010 and was discontinued in 2013. So What's App is discontinuing support for phones that are 7-10 years old.

    Keep in mind that the third world which keeps phones as long as possible is where people are impacted. I have friends impacted.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    @JaredBusch said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    Yup, iOS 8.
    0d72c239-c973-4b88-837d-c51ad8378de5-image.png

    iOS 8 was supported on these devices.
    7f188681-9629-4b72-b00e-82ef136e9bee-image.png

    The newest device on that list is the iPhone 6. That is the LAST device not able to be upgraded to iOS 13 (current version of iOS) as the iPhone 6s can go all the way to iOS 13.

    That said, the iPhone 6 can still upgrade to iOS 12.
    And the iPhone 4s, the oldest to support iOS 8 does support iOS 9. There should be zero fucking issues here from the iOS world. Anyone who still uses anything as old as an iPhone 4 does not use What's App anyway.

    Note: The iPhone 4 released in 2010 and was discontinued in 2013. So What's App is discontinuing support for phones that are 7-10 years old.

    Keep in mind that the third world which keeps phones as long as possible is where people are impacted. I have friends impacted.

    Maybe on Android. I don't know them well enough to know the version cycles, but on iPhone, bullshit. it is a 7-10 year old device. If you are dependant upon software working, then you can afford to update. Otherwise it is a luxury.

    But even that said, you can simply move up to the iPhone 4s from an iPhone 4 and be able to work. There is no requirement for anything even remotely new.

    Of course this will just be repeated in a year or two. It took 7-10 years for the bottom of the pile to reach the upgrade cycle, but ALL devices of any type eventually reach this state.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    @JaredBusch said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    Yup, iOS 8.
    0d72c239-c973-4b88-837d-c51ad8378de5-image.png

    iOS 8 was supported on these devices.
    7f188681-9629-4b72-b00e-82ef136e9bee-image.png

    The newest device on that list is the iPhone 6. That is the LAST device not able to be upgraded to iOS 13 (current version of iOS) as the iPhone 6s can go all the way to iOS 13.

    That said, the iPhone 6 can still upgrade to iOS 12.
    And the iPhone 4s, the oldest to support iOS 8 does support iOS 9. There should be zero fucking issues here from the iOS world. Anyone who still uses anything as old as an iPhone 4 does not use What's App anyway.

    Note: The iPhone 4 released in 2010 and was discontinued in 2013. So What's App is discontinuing support for phones that are 7-10 years old.

    Keep in mind that the third world which keeps phones as long as possible is where people are impacted. I have friends impacted.

    So what. I don't want my software less secure just so some people can run ancient hardware. Too bad for them. I think it's a great move by all vendors to provide more secure software by decommissioning code or support for old hardware in cases like that where it's beneficial to do so.



  • @JaredBusch said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    @scottalanmiller said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    @JaredBusch said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    Yup, iOS 8.
    0d72c239-c973-4b88-837d-c51ad8378de5-image.png

    iOS 8 was supported on these devices.
    7f188681-9629-4b72-b00e-82ef136e9bee-image.png

    The newest device on that list is the iPhone 6. That is the LAST device not able to be upgraded to iOS 13 (current version of iOS) as the iPhone 6s can go all the way to iOS 13.

    That said, the iPhone 6 can still upgrade to iOS 12.
    And the iPhone 4s, the oldest to support iOS 8 does support iOS 9. There should be zero fucking issues here from the iOS world. Anyone who still uses anything as old as an iPhone 4 does not use What's App anyway.

    Note: The iPhone 4 released in 2010 and was discontinued in 2013. So What's App is discontinuing support for phones that are 7-10 years old.

    Keep in mind that the third world which keeps phones as long as possible is where people are impacted. I have friends impacted.

    Maybe on Android. I don't know them well enough to know the version cycles, but on iPhone, bullshit. it is a 7-10 year old device. If you are dependant upon software working, then you can afford to update. Otherwise it is a luxury.

    If you're talking about iOS, I'll agree with you - if you could afford an iPhone in the first place, then you can afford to upgrade - if you can't, well, then you shouldn't have been on an iPhone in the first place.

    Now that said - Google drops support for Android after like 2 years.. and hardware vendors - forget about it - if you get even two years I call you lucky.. and that's just crap!

    Now - JB might say, the Android phones from 7-10 years ago were such crap that no one should be still using them... that might be true.. but it might have also been the only smart phone option for them.. and if the phone is still physically working - why not keep using it?

    This comes down to the same Sonos support situation. And I'm sure Sonos and MS are ditching support for old speakers/old windows for the same reason - they aren't making any money off that old stuff, so they need to sell newer stuff to make money again - plus it reduces their patching load.

    But ultimately - it seems that @JaredBusch is saying that people should be forced to update hardware/software after a given (unstated length) of time - is that right Jared?



  • @Obsolesce said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    @scottalanmiller said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    @JaredBusch said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    Yup, iOS 8.
    0d72c239-c973-4b88-837d-c51ad8378de5-image.png

    iOS 8 was supported on these devices.
    7f188681-9629-4b72-b00e-82ef136e9bee-image.png

    The newest device on that list is the iPhone 6. That is the LAST device not able to be upgraded to iOS 13 (current version of iOS) as the iPhone 6s can go all the way to iOS 13.

    That said, the iPhone 6 can still upgrade to iOS 12.
    And the iPhone 4s, the oldest to support iOS 8 does support iOS 9. There should be zero fucking issues here from the iOS world. Anyone who still uses anything as old as an iPhone 4 does not use What's App anyway.

    Note: The iPhone 4 released in 2010 and was discontinued in 2013. So What's App is discontinuing support for phones that are 7-10 years old.

    Keep in mind that the third world which keeps phones as long as possible is where people are impacted. I have friends impacted.

    So what. I don't want my software less secure just so some people can run ancient hardware. Too bad for them. I think it's a great move by all vendors to provide more secure software by decommissioning code or support for old hardware in cases like that where it's beneficial to do so.

    I'm on board with this - But the eco-waste is huge with this. I'd much rather see a charge for updates. I understand that MS/Sonos/Google need to pay those devs working on updating (security only) that old code. Geez, you'd hope the code wouldn't be so bug ridden to keep several teams of devs needing to work on it, so with luck, you're down to a single team after a few years, so the fee could be pretty low - say $10/user/year. Maybe that's just a pipe dream to me.

    Of course, there is no desire for the companies themselves to do this - because they make a shit ton more money selling new hardware/software packages every couple years.



  • @Dashrender said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    If you're talking about iOS, I'll agree with you - if you could afford an iPhone in the first place, then you can afford to upgrade - if you can't, well, then you shouldn't have been on an iPhone in the first place.

    Unlocked iPhone 4s, $21 buy it now on eBay with free shipping... seems pretty reasonable to me. The whole stigma that iPhones are only for rich people is weak.

    Sure if you want the brand new flagship phone, it's expensive. But the same goes for Android phones. Pixel 4 starts at $999, brand new iPhone 11 starts at $699... $300 less 🤷♂



  • @bnrstnr said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    @Dashrender said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    If you're talking about iOS, I'll agree with you - if you could afford an iPhone in the first place, then you can afford to upgrade - if you can't, well, then you shouldn't have been on an iPhone in the first place.

    Unlocked iPhone 4s, $21 buy it now on eBay with free shipping... seems pretty reasonable to me. The whole stigma that iPhones are only for rich people is weak.

    I rarely consider the secondary market - in dicussions like this - if the manufacturer isn't supporting the device, it's basically a dead, near useless device, because it's not getting security updates.



  • @bnrstnr said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    Sure if you want the brand new flagship phone, it's expensive. But the same goes for Android phones. Pixel 4 starts at $999, brand new iPhone 11 starts at $699... $300 less 🤷♂

    No reason to be stuck at flagship phones.



  • @Dashrender said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    @bnrstnr said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    Sure if you want the brand new flagship phone, it's expensive. But the same goes for Android phones. Pixel 4 starts at $999, brand new iPhone 11 starts at $699... $300 less 🤷♂

    No reason to be stuck at flagship phones.

    A colleague just got this phone a couple weeks ago: https://www.asus.com/us/Phone/ROG-Phone-II/

    ...and it's freaking awesome. Definitely my next phone line when I have to buy a phone.



  • @Dashrender said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    @bnrstnr said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    @Dashrender said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    If you're talking about iOS, I'll agree with you - if you could afford an iPhone in the first place, then you can afford to upgrade - if you can't, well, then you shouldn't have been on an iPhone in the first place.

    Unlocked iPhone 4s, $21 buy it now on eBay with free shipping... seems pretty reasonable to me. The whole stigma that iPhones are only for rich people is weak.

    I rarely consider the secondary market - in dicussions like this - if the manufacturer isn't supporting the device, it's basically a dead, near useless device, because it's not getting security updates.

    If you are only looking at supported devices then nothing is affected. This goes against your previous post.



  • @Obsolesce said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    @Dashrender said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    @bnrstnr said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    Sure if you want the brand new flagship phone, it's expensive. But the same goes for Android phones. Pixel 4 starts at $999, brand new iPhone 11 starts at $699... $300 less 🤷♂

    No reason to be stuck at flagship phones.

    A colleague just got this phone a couple weeks ago: https://www.asus.com/us/Phone/ROG-Phone-II/

    ...and it's freaking awesome. Definitely my next phone line when I have to buy a phone.

    Damn, that's nice.



  • @JaredBusch said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    @Dashrender said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    @bnrstnr said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    @Dashrender said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    If you're talking about iOS, I'll agree with you - if you could afford an iPhone in the first place, then you can afford to upgrade - if you can't, well, then you shouldn't have been on an iPhone in the first place.

    Unlocked iPhone 4s, $21 buy it now on eBay with free shipping... seems pretty reasonable to me. The whole stigma that iPhones are only for rich people is weak.

    I rarely consider the secondary market - in dicussions like this - if the manufacturer isn't supporting the device, it's basically a dead, near useless device, because it's not getting security updates.

    If you are only looking at supported devices then nothing is affected. This goes against your previous post.

    Maybe - I'll probably end up agreeing with you - but really, my main premise is - Should vendors be required to support their equipment longer than they do today?

    In the days of non internet connected TVs, refrigerators, etc - having a shortish support window didn't really hurt anyone, because the device was still completely usable, and generally completely safe to continue using until the physical device died.

    That is not the case in modern connected devices. Not getting security updates makes them potentially life threatening at the top end, and inconvenient on the low end, forcing people who care to spend much more than they have in the past.

    I don't have an issue with the requirement for more money from the end user - for example, I'm totally fine with some sort of fee to continue to get updates as long as I use the device. But I also see the need for forced retirement of devices after x amount of time because, reasons (i.e. to few users on it that lack of yearly fees pays for devs needed for upkeep comes to mind), but one of those reasons shouldn't be - more bottom line to the vendor (of course this is super anti-capitalism, so I feel dirty saying it).



  • @JaredBusch said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    @Dashrender said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    @bnrstnr said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    @Dashrender said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    If you're talking about iOS, I'll agree with you - if you could afford an iPhone in the first place, then you can afford to upgrade - if you can't, well, then you shouldn't have been on an iPhone in the first place.

    Unlocked iPhone 4s, $21 buy it now on eBay with free shipping... seems pretty reasonable to me. The whole stigma that iPhones are only for rich people is weak.

    I rarely consider the secondary market - in dicussions like this - if the manufacturer isn't supporting the device, it's basically a dead, near useless device, because it's not getting security updates.

    If you are only looking at supported devices then nothing is affected. This goes against your previous post.

    Damn! two usb-c ports, love it!



  • @JaredBusch said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    @Dashrender said in Hardware lifecycle expectation - discussion:

    In light of Sonos and What's App dropping support for older hardware, I'm curious what others think about forced hardware/software retirement?

    What, if anything could be done (that would likely be accepted by the public) to solve the issue.

    I don't know about Sonos, but What's App is dropping support for iOS 8... That is fucking ancient. I assumed that the Android version was comparably ancient.

    Yeah I think it was froyo that they dropped support for. Which is from like 2009.


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