Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt
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The subject line of this fork is completed fucked.
It should be "Can you be compelled to give up your credentials to an encrypted device based on a suspicion of additional crimes being committed?"
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@scottalanmiller said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@bnrstnr said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
Agreed, in general. My argument would be that there is a difference between a witness of a crime, and an admission to a crime. Heresay feels like a weird thing to claim against someone's admission of their own activities.
Maybe it's a bad word in this case. But imagine this discussion...
"I ate the sandwich."
"That's heresay"
"No sir, I literally put it in my mouth and ate it, no one told me about it."
Heresay as a word implies something that was heard, not the admission by the initial party.Defendant: "We all know I eat"
Officer: "He ate a sandwich on november 3rd, he said I know that he eats, so I can testify that this is what he ate, even though I didn't actually see him eating a sandwich on that date"
Court: "Umm..... no"No, it's like this.
Defendant: "I ate and the cop there on the stand knows what it was that I ate, his knowledge is accurate."
Officer under oath: "He had a ham and swiss."
Court: "Okay"No, not at all. He didn't say "anything the police say is on my computer is there"... you're wearing me out here. He made an ambiguous statement about what's there.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@bnrstnr said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
Agreed, in general. My argument would be that there is a difference between a witness of a crime, and an admission to a crime. Heresay feels like a weird thing to claim against someone's admission of their own activities.
Maybe it's a bad word in this case. But imagine this discussion...
"I ate the sandwich."
"That's heresay"
"No sir, I literally put it in my mouth and ate it, no one told me about it."
Heresay as a word implies something that was heard, not the admission by the initial party.Defendant: "We all know I eat"
Officer: "He ate a sandwich on november 3rd, he said I know that he eats, so I can testify that this is what he ate, even though I didn't actually see him eating a sandwich on that date"
Court: "Umm..... no"No, it's like this.
Defendant: "I ate and the cop there on the stand knows what it was that I ate, his knowledge is accurate."
Officer under oath: "He had a ham and swiss."
Court: "Okay"Wrong.
It's actually like
Defendant: I eat, and the cop saw me eating. The cop walked up and saw me eating, he found I had a stolen candy bar and attempted to compelle me to admitting that the sandwich I was eating was also stolen, but had no proof that I stole the sandwich"
Cop: Yeah. . . I mean I did actually only suspect he stole the sandwich and have no proof that he hadn't actually paid for it or made it himself.
Court: okay cops, go get some actually evidence before I get pissed off and hold the police in contempt of court.
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@bnrstnr said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@bnrstnr said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
Agreed, in general. My argument would be that there is a difference between a witness of a crime, and an admission to a crime. Heresay feels like a weird thing to claim against someone's admission of their own activities.
Maybe it's a bad word in this case. But imagine this discussion...
"I ate the sandwich."
"That's heresay"
"No sir, I literally put it in my mouth and ate it, no one told me about it."
Heresay as a word implies something that was heard, not the admission by the initial party.Defendant: "We all know I eat"
Officer: "He ate a sandwich on november 3rd, he said I know that he eats, so I can testify that this is what he ate, even though I didn't actually see him eating a sandwich on that date"
Court: "Umm..... no"No, it's like this.
Defendant: "I ate and the cop there on the stand knows what it was that I ate, his knowledge is accurate."
Officer under oath: "He had a ham and swiss."
Court: "Okay"No, not at all. He didn't say "anything the police say is on my computer is there"... you're wearing me out here. He made an ambiguous statement about what's there.
I'm not trying to wear you out. I'm just trying to point out that your claim to ambiguity hinges on that "we both know what is on there" does not mean anything, and I feel that telling the cop under a situation of extreme clarity as to why the cop is asking that he does indeed know what is on there is very clear.
There are points as to why I feel it is not ambiguous...
- Presumably he knows exactly why he's being arrested and asked for the password.
- He knows what is on there.
- He tells the cop that what they think is on there is what is on there under a condition where the seems to be no reasonable doubt as to what he meant.
Under other conditions where one of those points doesn't exist, I would agree that his statement would be ambiguous. But under what we believe to be the situation, to me it seems anything but. It's crystal clear that he knew, they knew, and he admitted to exactly that.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@bnrstnr said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@bnrstnr said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
Agreed, in general. My argument would be that there is a difference between a witness of a crime, and an admission to a crime. Heresay feels like a weird thing to claim against someone's admission of their own activities.
Maybe it's a bad word in this case. But imagine this discussion...
"I ate the sandwich."
"That's heresay"
"No sir, I literally put it in my mouth and ate it, no one told me about it."
Heresay as a word implies something that was heard, not the admission by the initial party.Defendant: "We all know I eat"
Officer: "He ate a sandwich on november 3rd, he said I know that he eats, so I can testify that this is what he ate, even though I didn't actually see him eating a sandwich on that date"
Court: "Umm..... no"No, it's like this.
Defendant: "I ate and the cop there on the stand knows what it was that I ate, his knowledge is accurate."
Officer under oath: "He had a ham and swiss."
Court: "Okay"No, not at all. He didn't say "anything the police say is on my computer is there"... you're wearing me out here. He made an ambiguous statement about what's there.
I'm not trying to wear you out. I'm just trying to point out that your claim to ambiguity hinges on that "we both know what is on there" does not mean anything, and I feel that telling the cop under a situation of extreme clarity as to why the cop is asking that he does indeed know what is on there is very clear.
There are points as to why I feel it is not ambiguous...
- Presumably he knows exactly why he's being arrested and asked for the password.
- He knows what is on there.
- He tells the cop that what they think is on there is what is on there under a condition where the seems to be no reasonable doubt as to what he meant.
Under other conditions where one of those points doesn't exist, I would agree that his statement would be ambiguous. But under what we believe to be the situation, to me it seems anything but. It's crystal clear that he knew, they knew, and he admitted to exactly that.
None of this matters Scott.
What matters is that a person cannot be compelled to self incriminate or provide evidence against their own case.
You're wrong, and you're picking and choosing what to respond to to attempt to make your argument sound valid, when in fact it's just plainly wrong.
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So many attorneys on mangolassi. I’m impressed
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@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@Dashrender said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@bnrstnr said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@bnrstnr said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
No, the defense could claim he meant his Christmas list...
Defense can claim anything. It's what he actually said that matters, and what he said is that the cops know. So if the cops say, under oath, that it's child porn, then child porn it is.
Did he literally say that he had child pornography on there? I must have missed that part... They still have to prove that it's there.
I'm not sure I agree with that. I'm leaning toward Scott's side on this. Really it would be up to you on a jury to hear - the defendant said "We both know what’s on there. " What do you as a juror think he meant? Come on, put on your big boy pants and think about that... what do you really think he meant. it's a piece of evidence that the defendant provided - verbal evidence... so you as a juror can weight it however you want.
@Dashrender that doesn't matter.
Whether the defendant and cops know what's on the computer, doesn't mean that the defendant needs to provide access to the evidence of the crime. The police need to get the evidence, and they cannot force a defendant to provide the password to said evidence.
It needs to be provided willfully by the defendant and no coerced AKA compelled speech.
To that I completely agree - he does NOT have to provide the password - but that's OK - as Scott said, the defendant already admitted to the crime.... so the actual evidence is not required.
In a no body murder case - if the defendant admits to guilt, that's it.
Now of course, in this case, the defendant will claim that this statement was not an admission of guilt - so likely the judge will rule that the defendant doesn't go directly to sentencing, but instead will get a trial, where this statement will be submitted to the jury, and if I were on that jury, I would accept that statement as an admission and he's be going to jail.
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@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@bnrstnr said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
Agreed, in general. My argument would be that there is a difference between a witness of a crime, and an admission to a crime. Heresay feels like a weird thing to claim against someone's admission of their own activities.
Maybe it's a bad word in this case. But imagine this discussion...
"I ate the sandwich."
"That's heresay"
"No sir, I literally put it in my mouth and ate it, no one told me about it."
Heresay as a word implies something that was heard, not the admission by the initial party.Defendant: "We all know I eat"
Officer: "He ate a sandwich on november 3rd, he said I know that he eats, so I can testify that this is what he ate, even though I didn't actually see him eating a sandwich on that date"
Court: "Umm..... no"No, it's like this.
Defendant: "I ate and the cop there on the stand knows what it was that I ate, his knowledge is accurate."
Officer under oath: "He had a ham and swiss."
Court: "Okay"Wrong.
It's actually like
Defendant: I eat, and the cop saw me eating. The cop walked up and saw me eating, he found I had a stolen candy bar and attempted to compelle me to admitting that the sandwich I was eating was also stolen, but had no proof that I stole the sandwich"
Cop: Yeah. . . I mean I did actually only suspect he stole the sandwich and have no proof that he hadn't actually paid for it or made it himself.
Court: okay cops, go get some actually evidence before I get pissed off and hold the police in contempt of court.
This example leaves out all fo the parts that matter... the part where he voluntarily admitted. Any mention of compelling misses everything.
The discussion of ambiguity is legit. A court could argue, I don't think with any sincerity but that doesn't always matter, that he wasn't clear on being arrested for child porn.
But the discussion of compelling is very clearly unrelated.
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@NashBrydges said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
So many attorneys on mangolassi. I’m impressed
All any attorney is is someone that makes an argument well. Actual working attorneys often (but not always) have more experience, but all they do is argue the point. What a jury will believe or accept is not something specifically unique to an attorney to know.
Remember, 50% of attorneys that go to court, lose
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@scottalanmiller So why the hell did the Pennsylvania Supreme Court rule that the defendant wouldn't have to provide his password to get into his computer?
Explain that, rather than trying to drive off onto these tangents that are there to just distract from how wrong you are.
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@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 they shouldn't need it, he told them that they knew what was on there. That should be all the evidence needed.
here is my original response.
I don't see how it is confusing.
"They [cops / courts] shouldn't need it [password]"
They need the password to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there were additional crimes against children committed. Otherwise it's just a statement made during interrogation and the police don't have actual proof to bring charges up.
They are already beyond reasonable doubt because he admitted to it. Admission leaves no doubt.
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@Obsolesce said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 they shouldn't need it, he told them that they knew what was on there. That should be all the evidence needed.
here is my original response.
I don't see how it is confusing.
"They [cops / courts] shouldn't need it [password]"
They need the password to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there were additional crimes against children committed. Otherwise it's just a statement made during interrogation and the police don't have actual proof to bring charges up.
They are already beyond reasonable doubt because he admitted to it. Admission leaves no doubt.
Wrong, he was brought up on charges based on evidence that they have. The DoJ wants to bring up additional charges and cannot do that without accessing the content on the defendants computer.
It's two distinct issues.
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@Obsolesce said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 they shouldn't need it, he told them that they knew what was on there. That should be all the evidence needed.
here is my original response.
I don't see how it is confusing.
"They [cops / courts] shouldn't need it [password]"
They need the password to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there were additional crimes against children committed. Otherwise it's just a statement made during interrogation and the police don't have actual proof to bring charges up.
They are already beyond reasonable doubt because he admitted to it. Admission leaves no doubt.
Right, that's my theory. Once you have voluntary admission, you need nothing further (for the crime in question.)
To look for additional crimes, yes, it's worthwhile to still break in.
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@Obsolesce said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Nothing in that statement is evidence, and if it was it would be self incriminating, so the person isn't compelled to give up that information.
Except he told them that THEY knew what was there. In theory, that statement in a court would mean that the cops could testify as to what evidence was there because he granted as evidence that they knew what the evidence was. Therefore, they are witnesses by his admission. That he gave it up and self incriminated isn't a problem, because he did so voluntarily.
I feel that because he admitted to what was on it, he should be forced to give the password.
There are arguments exactly like that - I think there was on in the news recently. Because we KNOW what's there, he can be compelled to provide the key, etc, etc.
There is a name for it... -
@Dashrender said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@Obsolesce said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Nothing in that statement is evidence, and if it was it would be self incriminating, so the person isn't compelled to give up that information.
Except he told them that THEY knew what was there. In theory, that statement in a court would mean that the cops could testify as to what evidence was there because he granted as evidence that they knew what the evidence was. Therefore, they are witnesses by his admission. That he gave it up and self incriminated isn't a problem, because he did so voluntarily.
I feel that because he admitted to what was on it, he should be forced to give the password.
There are arguments exactly like that - I think there was on in the news recently. Because we KNOW what's there, he can be compelled to provide the key, etc, etc.
There is a name for it...Do you know if schrodinger's cat is alive or dead? No you can make a reasonable guess based on the evidence outside of the box.
Without actually looking in, you are simply speculating.
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@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@Dashrender said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@Obsolesce said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Nothing in that statement is evidence, and if it was it would be self incriminating, so the person isn't compelled to give up that information.
Except he told them that THEY knew what was there. In theory, that statement in a court would mean that the cops could testify as to what evidence was there because he granted as evidence that they knew what the evidence was. Therefore, they are witnesses by his admission. That he gave it up and self incriminated isn't a problem, because he did so voluntarily.
I feel that because he admitted to what was on it, he should be forced to give the password.
There are arguments exactly like that - I think there was on in the news recently. Because we KNOW what's there, he can be compelled to provide the key, etc, etc.
There is a name for it...Do you know if schrodinger's cat is alive or dead? No you can make a reasonable guess based on the evidence outside of the box.
Without actually looking in, you are simply speculating.
Until he says that the speculation is accurate, then it's not speculation anymore (legally speaking.) That's the key. First had admission changes everything, that can't be ignored. It might not be the be all, end all, but you can't gloss over it, it's the core factor to the discussion.
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@scottalanmiller said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@Dashrender said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@Obsolesce said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Nothing in that statement is evidence, and if it was it would be self incriminating, so the person isn't compelled to give up that information.
Except he told them that THEY knew what was there. In theory, that statement in a court would mean that the cops could testify as to what evidence was there because he granted as evidence that they knew what the evidence was. Therefore, they are witnesses by his admission. That he gave it up and self incriminated isn't a problem, because he did so voluntarily.
I feel that because he admitted to what was on it, he should be forced to give the password.
There are arguments exactly like that - I think there was on in the news recently. Because we KNOW what's there, he can be compelled to provide the key, etc, etc.
There is a name for it...Do you know if schrodinger's cat is alive or dead? No you can make a reasonable guess based on the evidence outside of the box.
Without actually looking in, you are simply speculating.
Until he says that the speculation is accurate, then it's not speculation anymore (legally speaking.) That's the key. First had admission changes everything, that can't be ignored. It might not be the be all, end all, but you can't gloss over it, it's the core factor to the discussion.
But again, none of this side bar conversation has anything to do with the original topic of "You cannot be compelled to give up your password".
That includes even if the police know you committed some crime.
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@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
The question is simple.
Do you have to give up your password to your personal computing device, because you're suspected of committing a crime?
Answer: No
Other than you - no one, on oneeeee has been talking about his need to give up the password - please drop that from the conversation - start a new thread about that part only..
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@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@Dashrender said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@Obsolesce said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@scottalanmiller said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
@DustinB3403 said in Miscellaneous Tech News:
Nothing in that statement is evidence, and if it was it would be self incriminating, so the person isn't compelled to give up that information.
Except he told them that THEY knew what was there. In theory, that statement in a court would mean that the cops could testify as to what evidence was there because he granted as evidence that they knew what the evidence was. Therefore, they are witnesses by his admission. That he gave it up and self incriminated isn't a problem, because he did so voluntarily.
I feel that because he admitted to what was on it, he should be forced to give the password.
There are arguments exactly like that - I think there was on in the news recently. Because we KNOW what's there, he can be compelled to provide the key, etc, etc.
There is a name for it...Do you know if schrodinger's cat is alive or dead? No you can make a reasonable guess based on the evidence outside of the box.
Without actually looking in, you are simply speculating.
Until he says that the speculation is accurate, then it's not speculation anymore (legally speaking.) That's the key. First had admission changes everything, that can't be ignored. It might not be the be all, end all, but you can't gloss over it, it's the core factor to the discussion.
But again, none of this side bar conversation has anything to do with the original topic of "You cannot be compelled to give up your password".
That includes even if the police know you committed some crime.
I confirmed that at least in one state, if the statement is seen as not ambiguous that a court would never hear the case, he'd be straight to jail. The "what a court will hear" situation would not arise because the heresay rule and all that would be bypassed, they don't apply when the suspect admits to the crime.
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@Dashrender said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
@DustinB3403 said in Is Admitting That Someone's Suspicion of Guilt Is Correct Constitute Admission of Guilt:
The question is simple.
Do you have to give up your password to your personal computing device, because you're suspected of committing a crime?
Answer: No
Other than you - no one, on oneeeee has been talking about his need to give up the password - please drop that from the conversation - start a new thread about that part only..
I've been talking about it this entire time. Scott changed the subject to hide that he's clearly wrong about the legal defense of not having to give up his password.
