Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer
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@JaredBusch said in Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer:
@scottalanmiller said in Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer:
It actually has just the tiniest bit better signaling.
Bullshit. A twisted pair is a twisted pair.
Not exactly. The number of twist per length is different on different pairs in the same cable. It's made so on purpose. Tighter twists are better and depending on the wiring standard you use and the cable, you are using different pairs for different signals. So there is a difference. That said, I'm sure it doesn't make any difference in the real world as cables have to fulfill standards to be used.
According to the standard (latest being ANSI/TIA-568-D.2), T568A is the standard and T568B is called the optional wiring to be used "if necessary to accommodate certain cabling systems". As you said T586B was made to be compatible with AT&T telephone wiring. And that is the only reason it exists.
So if one follows the standard to the letter (as the government does) one should use T568A.
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@Pete-S said in Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer:
The number of twist per length is different on different pairs in the same cable.
Unless you are choosing to be @scottalanmiller now, it does not matter.
The exact TPI difference between pairs is super fractional. It varies to prevent crosstalk. If not for that, they would all be twisted as much as possible for the best throughput.
Additionally, 1000base-t sends data out all 4 pairs simultaneously. SO it is imposible to have a single pair be "faster" than the others. Yes, the pair with more twists will deliver the 2 bits slightly ahead of the other 3 pairs. but it does not matter as nothing will be done until all 8 bits have arrived.
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@JaredBusch said in Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer:
@scottalanmiller said in Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer:
but there is a reason that A was designed to be the standard first
The TIA T568B standard is the most widely used standard, and is also backwards compatible, for 2 pairs, with the older AT&T 568A standard.
The US government mandates the T568A standard in all government contracts. That is the only location I know of to use A as the standard.
Yes, B is by far the most commonly used. But A came first and was designed as such for the absolute best performance. The question should not matter as to which is more common, only "why would you ever choose the less ideal option if there is no benefit?" In most of the world, backwards compatibility with pre-data telephone lines is something we've not had to consider for literally decades.
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@scottalanmiller said in Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer:
designed as such for the absolute best performance.
This is not true, no matter how many times you say it.
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@JaredBusch said in Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer:
@scottalanmiller said in Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer:
designed as such for the absolute best performance.
This is not true, no matter how many times you say it.
Actually it is true, we just both have it backwards. A is the backwards compatible one, B has the superior signaling.
https://www.doitforme.solutions/blog/ethernet-wiring-t568a-versus-t568b/
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@scottalanmiller Thats why since I started working in Network, used Standard B.
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@scottalanmiller said in Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer:
@JaredBusch said in Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer:
@scottalanmiller said in Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer:
designed as such for the absolute best performance.
This is not true, no matter how many times you say it.
Actually it is true, we just both have it backwards. A is the backwards compatible one, B has the superior signaling.
https://www.doitforme.solutions/blog/ethernet-wiring-t568a-versus-t568b/
So I actually bothered to read that to see your proof.
There is no proof in there.
And that backwards compatibility statement in that document contradicts everything else out there.
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Ok so I did some looking to refresh memory.
Telco was blue (red/green) and then orange (yellow/black) for a 2 line phone. I did this a lot back in the 90's when I worked with alarm systems.
That matches to T568A. So your link has that correct (but still with no proof).
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It's so old now. First standard is from 1991. I remember that in those days we considered using twisted pair for networking dubious practice. You'd run coax for ethernet and twisted pair for phones if you were going to do it right.
But just a few years later twisted pair was the only thing worth using. Especially when 100 Mbit became available. And in those days being able to run the same wiring for phones and for the network was a big deal for a big office.
From what I can gather T568A is two pair USOC compatible but T568B AT&T 258A color code and one pair USOC compatible. But POTS was never big on the 8-pin RJ45, only 6-pin RJ11. ISDN which is digital used 8pins and T568A wiring but that never became as popular in the US as the rest of the world.
So T568B ended up being the most common in North America because it followed the older 258A color code while T568A was the most common in Europe and elsewhere and in US government buildings due to the standard.
But in 2020 none of that matters. Forget about POTS, heck, even VOIP is circling the drain. I've seen big multinational corporations moving to cell phone only with PBX as a service for all employees just as many offices are becoming wifi only.
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@Pete-S said in Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer:
But just a few years later
"Few Years"
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@Pete-S said in Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer:
I've seen big multinational corporations moving to cell phone only with PBX as a service for all employees just as many offices are becoming wifi only.
I've seen no legit company consider this. Cell phone service in the US is poor (we have a lot of open space and really bad regulations), and you can really hear the quality issues when you do it. And people don't like the company controlling access to their personal space.
Someone, somewhere has definitely tried this. But the only thing we see anywhere is people moving to VoIP, and often using their mobile devices as yet another VoIP end point.
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@scottalanmiller said in Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer:
@Pete-S said in Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer:
But just a few years later
"Few Years"
Haha! Well, I was writing from memory. It felt like a few years, might have been 10 though.
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@Pete-S said in Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer:
Haha! Well, I was writing from memory. It felt like a few years, might have been 10 though.
Twisted pair was getting big by like 1999. Not quite ten years, but more than a few
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@scottalanmiller said in Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer:
@Pete-S said in Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer:
I've seen big multinational corporations moving to cell phone only with PBX as a service for all employees just as many offices are becoming wifi only.
I've seen no legit company consider this. Cell phone service in the US is poor (we have a lot of open space and really bad regulations), and you can really hear the quality issues when you do it. And people don't like the company controlling access to their personal space.
Someone, somewhere has definitely tried this. But the only thing we see anywhere is people moving to VoIP, and often using their mobile devices as yet another VoIP end point.
You'll see it soon enough. Quality is not part of the equation, only cost and convenience.
It's like blu-ray versus netflix, CD versus Spotify etc. Quality never wins...
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@Pete-S said in Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer:
You'll see it soon enough. Quality is not part of the equation, only cost and convenience.
Seems like it will cost more. Especially when you are giving your customers over to your employees and your company doesn't sound like a real business with working phones. Those are some costly things.
As a business that works all over the world, VoIP saves us a fortune over using cell phones. Cell phone minutes would be astronomic if we didn't limit people to one country to work, it would cause all kinds of work from home issues since so many employees in the US don't have reliable cell service at home, and it would be costly when all of our customers start calling cell phones and can't get customer service, support, or anything because there is no call handling. No actual company can do this. Even a tiny clinic couldn't possible manage the high cost and crazy call flow problems that that would cause. Maybe a five person manufacturing company that handles almost no calls. But once you have any sort of workflow, it's dead in the water. And lettering every employee get direct communications to the customers on their personal devices... it's like begging them to steal the customers when they leave and there is little you can do about it if you required them to talk on personal devices.
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@Pete-S said in Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer:
It's like blu-ray versus netflix, CD versus Spotify etc. Quality never wins...
That's not always true. Look at Google rankings. Business level, high performance websites dramatically out rank amateur ones. People using Yahoo email addresses constantly lose market share to those using their own URLs. (And in all of your examples, the one that won actually offers the higher quality.)
When your phone systems make it feel like you are calling someone in their garage and they can't transfer you to anyone, can't put you on hold, and drop you constantly... you lose customers. I don't care if you are a hair salon, manufacturer, doctor, or law firm. When your customers think you aren't a business, you might as well not be.
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@scottalanmiller said in Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer:
@Pete-S said in Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer:
You'll see it soon enough. Quality is not part of the equation, only cost and convenience.
Seems like it will cost more. Especially when you are giving your customers over to your employees and your company doesn't sound like a real business with working phones. Those are some costly things.
As a business that works all over the world, VoIP saves us a fortune over using cell phones. Cell phone minutes would be astronomic if we didn't limit people to one country to work, it would cause all kinds of work from home issues since so many employees in the US don't have reliable cell service at home, and it would be costly when all of our customers start calling cell phones and can't get customer service, support, or anything because there is no call handling. No actual company can do this. Even a tiny clinic couldn't possible manage the high cost and crazy call flow problems that that would cause. Maybe a five person manufacturing company that handles almost no calls. But once you have any sort of workflow, it's dead in the water. And lettering every employee get direct communications to the customers on their personal devices... it's like begging them to steal the customers when they leave and there is little you can do about it if you required them to talk on personal devices.
I'm talking enterprise sized companies, thousands of phones, not the hair salon at the shopping mall. Everyone phone has a DID/DOD. Company issued cell phones. Maybe some kind of mobile centrex solution behind the scenes. Probably flat rate plans. If you haven't encountered it yet, you need to get out more. Or wait a couple of years. I haven't looked into details but I know for certain it's not some kind of VOIP solution because it works on dumb phones as well.
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@Pete-S said in Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer:
I'm talking enterprise sized companies, thousands of phones, not the hair salon at the shopping mall.
I'm talking all companies. The bigger you get, the more you sound like a one man show on their person device, the bigger the embarrassment. Imagine calling Exxon Mobile and getting some guy in his car. Or calling Berkshire Hathaway and getting someome picking up their kids from school. And asking to get technical support and them saying "oh sorry, You'll have to go to some website and look up our 2,000 techs from a list and call each one's cell phone till you find one that is available."
As someone that supports phones for companies, even a mom and pop uses VoIP to look like a real business. Any business that uses a cell phone is about three steps worse than one that has only one email address, and it's a Yahoo or hotmail (or AOL.) It's hard to think of something that flags a company as "not actually a company" as those kinds of things. Once you have two or three employees, it's a rare company that even can function without a company phone system. Can't imagine how a company over 20 could ever do it.
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@Pete-S said in Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer:
Company issued cell phones.
That's insanely expensive and very few employees are willing today to have two cell phones, it's awkward. That was a 2004 era experiment that failed pretty quickly once every employee already owned a smart phone.
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@Pete-S said in Copper Termination Standards - CompTIA Network+ N10-007 Prof. Messer:
Maybe some kind of mobile centrex solution behind the scenes.
So Centrex systems died like in the 1990s. That's ancient tech. I think what you are trying to describe is....
Standard VoIP PBX.
I have a feeling you are describing standard, everyday, by the book VoIP as "not VoIP, just using cell phones" when what you actually means is "VoIP PBX exactly as everyone here has meant it every time we mention in."
If you have any example, anywhere, of any company over 1,000 people doing this, let alone enterprise, absolutely share it. But I'm literally 100% confident given your description, that you are perceiving it as people using "cell phones" to replace VoIP, and not realizing that it's standard VoIP softphones being deployed onto mobile computing devices that are often, but not required to be, cell phones. Which isn't just what all of us here do, but several of us have companies that build and sell these solutions.
