O365 and backups
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Security rules... make someone an admin and you have to trust them.
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I'm exploring both sides to O365 backup.
I don't want to say yes or no to O365 backup software like Veeam Backup for O365 (which someone seen an Ad for) until I have enough information in all aspects to make an educated decision for recommendation.
Is it really needed? Is it worth the cost in the unlikelihood MS really messes up so bad nothing is restorable?
If something is deleted, there's like 2 or 3 levels of recycle bins and such on O365. Emails give deleted folder plus deleted folder deletion recovery, and another level from IMAPI or whatever. With SharePoint and OneDrive, there's also multiple levels and additional features like Ransomware Protection and such.
You have to really want something to go away to be unable to get it back.
We've had O365 for many years now, and never needed a backup. Users have deleted stuff, we've gotten it back. Worst case is we talk to MS support on the phone for 20 minutes, and end up getting it back via some means like imapi or whatever it is.
When someone leaves, we back up their O365 account via Exchange Admin, and store it for a while.
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@obsolesce like many things in IT, the answer might be more likely to be about politics than about business.
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@dashrender I use Veeam Backup for Office 365. Works flawlessly and successfully tested recovery capabilities. They offer a full version for 15 users or less for free. More than 15 and licensing is very reasonable.
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@scottalanmiller said in O365 and backups:
@Dashrender said in O365 and backups:
@scottalanmiller said in O365 and backups:
@Dashrender said in O365 and backups:
Does MS take backups? I'm talking about both email and Sharepoint/ODfB storage. If I delete something (or a user does) how hard is it to recover? and inside what time frame?
Yes THEY take them. No they do NOT expose the to you. If your users delete things, MS does not provide a recovery path.
So then their backups are only useful in the case where they, MS, have problems. Making them near useless for day to day use. And only useful in the case of a MS DR situation.
Correct, they are there to ensure that the service does not fail. They protect against their failure. Up to you to protect against yours.
MS states this pretty clearly on their Terms page. Section 6 in fact.
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@nashbrydges said in O365 and backups:
@scottalanmiller said in O365 and backups:
@Dashrender said in O365 and backups:
@scottalanmiller said in O365 and backups:
@Dashrender said in O365 and backups:
Does MS take backups? I'm talking about both email and Sharepoint/ODfB storage. If I delete something (or a user does) how hard is it to recover? and inside what time frame?
Yes THEY take them. No they do NOT expose the to you. If your users delete things, MS does not provide a recovery path.
So then their backups are only useful in the case where they, MS, have problems. Making them near useless for day to day use. And only useful in the case of a MS DR situation.
Correct, they are there to ensure that the service does not fail. They protect against their failure. Up to you to protect against yours.
MS states this pretty clearly on their Terms page. Section 6 in fact.
But there are several mechanisms to protect against your failure, too. It's not devoid of those.
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I suppose there should be a backup of data. I'm thinking that just because it's not hosted on-prem, doesn't mean it shouldn't be backed up. If we had our own on-prem Exchange/Sharepoint/Onedrive servers, they'd definitely be backed up, regardless of safety nets (recycle bins).
Perhaps we'll never need the backups, or maybe MS screws up one day that there is a total loss of a user(s) account with data. Who knows... but important production data is data, hosted by MS or not... it should be backed up is how I'm leaning.
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@obsolesce said in O365 and backups:
Who knows... but important production data is data, hosted by MS or not... it should be backed up is how I'm leaning.
Technically, backups aren't quite that important. The old adage that everything needs to be backed up doesn't actually hold up under scrutiny. Certainly 99.99% of things should be, but there is still that lingering .01%. Outside of tech, we don't back up too many things in life, we consider the cost and effort to outweigh the benefits. In IT, this still happens sometimes.
And then there is "what is a backup?" O365 is backed up. Maybe not to the degree or in the way that we'd want, but it is backed up to some degree. So at least part of the fear of not having a backup is already handled. And super reliable systems don't always need backups.
Example... a cheap, fragile system with a backup might lose data once ever 200 operational years. What if we built a system that was so reliable that without a backup it would only lose data once every 220 operational years? If the backups were accepted for the first system, they are unnecessary for the second.
We often see backups as a checkbox, but technically they are just a factor in resultant protection against data loss. If you get acceptable protection without them, they aren't needed.
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@scottalanmiller said in O365 and backups:
@obsolesce said in O365 and backups:
Who knows... but important production data is data, hosted by MS or not... it should be backed up is how I'm leaning.
Technically, backups aren't quite that important. The old adage that everything needs to be backed up doesn't actually hold up under scrutiny. Certainly 99.99% of things should be, but there is still that lingering .01%. Outside of tech, we don't back up too many things in life, we consider the cost and effort to outweigh the benefits. In IT, this still happens sometimes.
And then there is "what is a backup?" O365 is backed up. Maybe not to the degree or in the way that we'd want, but it is backed up to some degree. So at least part of the fear of not having a backup is already handled. And super reliable systems don't always need backups.
Example... a cheap, fragile system with a backup might lose data once ever 200 operational years. What if we built a system that was so reliable that without a backup it would only lose data once every 220 operational years? If the backups were accepted for the first system, they are unnecessary for the second.
We often see backups as a checkbox, but technically they are just a factor in resultant protection against data loss. If you get acceptable protection without them, they aren't needed.
I haven't tested the O365 backup software yet, but I do know that every single email and OneDrive account does not need to be backed up. Can you pick and choose?
I don't expect permanent data loss due to a failure that bad at Microsoft, but then again, I can't guarantee it. What they have is already enough via all their current protection tiers. But if something happens at the account level leaving those tiers inaccessible or lost, then the backup will be the only way to get it back.
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@obsolesce said in O365 and backups:
@scottalanmiller said in O365 and backups:
@obsolesce said in O365 and backups:
Who knows... but important production data is data, hosted by MS or not... it should be backed up is how I'm leaning.
Technically, backups aren't quite that important. The old adage that everything needs to be backed up doesn't actually hold up under scrutiny. Certainly 99.99% of things should be, but there is still that lingering .01%. Outside of tech, we don't back up too many things in life, we consider the cost and effort to outweigh the benefits. In IT, this still happens sometimes.
And then there is "what is a backup?" O365 is backed up. Maybe not to the degree or in the way that we'd want, but it is backed up to some degree. So at least part of the fear of not having a backup is already handled. And super reliable systems don't always need backups.
Example... a cheap, fragile system with a backup might lose data once ever 200 operational years. What if we built a system that was so reliable that without a backup it would only lose data once every 220 operational years? If the backups were accepted for the first system, they are unnecessary for the second.
We often see backups as a checkbox, but technically they are just a factor in resultant protection against data loss. If you get acceptable protection without them, they aren't needed.
I haven't tested the O365 backup software yet, but I do know that every single email and OneDrive account does not need to be backed up. Can you pick and choose?
In theory, depending on the service. But I doubt it would be worth it too often. Going that route, likely some better way for the rare high profile data.
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@obsolesce said in O365 and backups:
I don't expect permanent data loss due to a failure that bad at Microsoft, but then again, I can't guarantee it.
Can't guarantee it if you host yourself, or if you add a backup. Guarantees don't exist. All we do is increase the reliability level. MS already has backups for that scenario, so you are getting into a backup of a backup range, not a backup or no backup one.
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@scottalanmiller said in O365 and backups:
MS already has backups for that scenario
You know this for sure?
Didn't you experience permanent data loss with some O365 accounts do to licensing screw-up on their part, where a backup would have been nice?
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I just found this:
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/exchange/back-up-email
But that's specific to email, not including OneDrive and SharePoint data.
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Foudn this but it's two years old:
It looks like OneDrive uses SharePoint technology and is backed up.
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@obsolesce said in O365 and backups:
@scottalanmiller said in O365 and backups:
@obsolesce said in O365 and backups:
Who knows... but important production data is data, hosted by MS or not... it should be backed up is how I'm leaning.
Technically, backups aren't quite that important. The old adage that everything needs to be backed up doesn't actually hold up under scrutiny. Certainly 99.99% of things should be, but there is still that lingering .01%. Outside of tech, we don't back up too many things in life, we consider the cost and effort to outweigh the benefits. In IT, this still happens sometimes.
And then there is "what is a backup?" O365 is backed up. Maybe not to the degree or in the way that we'd want, but it is backed up to some degree. So at least part of the fear of not having a backup is already handled. And super reliable systems don't always need backups.
Example... a cheap, fragile system with a backup might lose data once ever 200 operational years. What if we built a system that was so reliable that without a backup it would only lose data once every 220 operational years? If the backups were accepted for the first system, they are unnecessary for the second.
We often see backups as a checkbox, but technically they are just a factor in resultant protection against data loss. If you get acceptable protection without them, they aren't needed.
I haven't tested the O365 backup software yet, but I do know that every single email and OneDrive account does not need to be backed up. Can you pick and choose?
I don't expect permanent data loss due to a failure that bad at Microsoft, but then again, I can't guarantee it. What they have is already enough via all their current protection tiers. But if something happens at the account level leaving those tiers inaccessible or lost, then the backup will be the only way to get it back.
With Veeam, you can pick and choose what you want to backup. Either the full user, or only OneDrive + email for the user, etc. Pretty flexible.
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@scottalanmiller said in O365 and backups:
@obsolesce said in O365 and backups:
@scottalanmiller said in O365 and backups:
@obsolesce said in O365 and backups:
Who knows... but important production data is data, hosted by MS or not... it should be backed up is how I'm leaning.
Technically, backups aren't quite that important. The old adage that everything needs to be backed up doesn't actually hold up under scrutiny. Certainly 99.99% of things should be, but there is still that lingering .01%. Outside of tech, we don't back up too many things in life, we consider the cost and effort to outweigh the benefits. In IT, this still happens sometimes.
And then there is "what is a backup?" O365 is backed up. Maybe not to the degree or in the way that we'd want, but it is backed up to some degree. So at least part of the fear of not having a backup is already handled. And super reliable systems don't always need backups.
Example... a cheap, fragile system with a backup might lose data once ever 200 operational years. What if we built a system that was so reliable that without a backup it would only lose data once every 220 operational years? If the backups were accepted for the first system, they are unnecessary for the second.
We often see backups as a checkbox, but technically they are just a factor in resultant protection against data loss. If you get acceptable protection without them, they aren't needed.
I haven't tested the O365 backup software yet, but I do know that every single email and OneDrive account does not need to be backed up. Can you pick and choose?
In theory, depending on the service. But I doubt it would be worth it too often. Going that route, likely some better way for the rare high profile data.
May be true for most cases but can't discount human stupidity or maliciousness lol. Had 3 instances where critical emails were deleted and needed to be recovered. One of those was a departing employee who deleted everything in their inbox and cleared their deleted folder. It wasn't until a month afterward that this was discovered. He thought he was doing the company a favour by clearing out the space. It wasn't malicious but definitely clueless.
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@nashbrydges said in O365 and backups:
@obsolesce said in O365 and backups:
@scottalanmiller said in O365 and backups:
@obsolesce said in O365 and backups:
Who knows... but important production data is data, hosted by MS or not... it should be backed up is how I'm leaning.
Technically, backups aren't quite that important. The old adage that everything needs to be backed up doesn't actually hold up under scrutiny. Certainly 99.99% of things should be, but there is still that lingering .01%. Outside of tech, we don't back up too many things in life, we consider the cost and effort to outweigh the benefits. In IT, this still happens sometimes.
And then there is "what is a backup?" O365 is backed up. Maybe not to the degree or in the way that we'd want, but it is backed up to some degree. So at least part of the fear of not having a backup is already handled. And super reliable systems don't always need backups.
Example... a cheap, fragile system with a backup might lose data once ever 200 operational years. What if we built a system that was so reliable that without a backup it would only lose data once every 220 operational years? If the backups were accepted for the first system, they are unnecessary for the second.
We often see backups as a checkbox, but technically they are just a factor in resultant protection against data loss. If you get acceptable protection without them, they aren't needed.
I haven't tested the O365 backup software yet, but I do know that every single email and OneDrive account does not need to be backed up. Can you pick and choose?
I don't expect permanent data loss due to a failure that bad at Microsoft, but then again, I can't guarantee it. What they have is already enough via all their current protection tiers. But if something happens at the account level leaving those tiers inaccessible or lost, then the backup will be the only way to get it back.
With Veeam, you can pick and choose what you want to backup. Either the full user, or only OneDrive + email for the user, etc. Pretty flexible.
Good to know, thanks for confirming!
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@obsolesce said in O365 and backups:
Foudn this but it's two years old:
It looks like OneDrive uses SharePoint technology and is backed up.
ODfB is just part of Sharepoint
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@obsolesce said in O365 and backups:
@scottalanmiller said in O365 and backups:
MS already has backups for that scenario
You know this for sure?
Yes
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@obsolesce said in O365 and backups:
Didn't you experience permanent data loss with some O365 accounts do to licensing screw-up on their part, where a backup would have been nice?
Yes, something that I point out a lot is that backups often don't account for account level problems. MS specifically has these problems, they depend totally on their account mechanisms and if anything goes wrong there, it takes out backups, redundancy and everything else, all at once.
