Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?
-
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
The facts are that adding in a payment for being a seller's agent makes an inappropriate conflict of interest that must be disclosed.
I think of it more like a tip or bonus.
A barista who puts out a tip jar doesn't become a slave of the coffee shop just because sometimes during their work, some change is dropped in.That's a tip, it is aligned to the goals. The tip comes from the customer, not the coffee shop. Where did slave come from? No one said slave, we said influenced.
And if you think that tips don't influence behaviour, you are disagreeing with the entire system because they exist for one purpose - to influence behaviour going totally against everything you just suggested. I mean, that's an absolutely perfect example of how the tips are all-influencing. So much so, that the tips can outweight the employer! The only recourse that an employer has against good tips making a service person do something unwanted by the employer (customer) is to fire them to break off the source of the tips! That's how dramatic that problem becomes.
So tips are a great example of exactly our concern.
-
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
It's obvious people already in IT have all these strong thoughts on the subject,
This has absolutely nothing to do with IT, though. It's about basic business understanding. If a business owner doesn't know this already - that's a business heading for failure. This is super, ultra basic common business sense. You HAVE to know how your partners are aligned and who works for you and who works against you.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
It's obvious people already in IT have all these strong thoughts on the subject,
This has absolutely nothing to do with IT, though. It's about basic business understanding. If a business owner doesn't know this already - that's a business heading for failure. This is super, ultra basic common business sense. You HAVE to know how your partners are aligned and who works for you and who works against you.
Well it comes back to trust I suppose.
If I hire a "consultant" to come figure out my home security, part of me already understands they will likely have only a few common vendors, and maybe they get commissions and maybe not. It isn't so much the commission I care about, it's whether they are actually doing what's right for me at the end of the day.I also "trust" that if they have some favorite vendors, it's because THEY are the experts, and thus THOSE vendors are particularly good ones, and the company is particular trained on using them.
Any decent company would do right by the customer. If they are this utterly persuaded to jack up their customers for some commissions, I agree the business won't last long. Or they will develop a bad reputation, or whatever else.
So it comes back to "trust" regarding the ML ads angle as well. You say the ads are not "advice" but that's not what I was saying anyway. I was saying I trust that the vendors within the ads are vetted enough to where I can believe they are at least good companies and have quality products. Not that ML is "recommending" or "advising" on their use. But simply that they are good, or approved of, if you will.
-
In the case of ML yes we do pre-approve them. However as Scott mentioned there is a certain amount of the fact that GroveSocial (owns ML) is not an IT Company (yes it is run by someone who also is the CEO of an IT Company) but we are purely Marketing. I get paid to market things to IT Pro's.
As an IT pro who from time to time has to reach out to other IT Pro's and MSP's to cover for a client need. I do ask what products do you resell and why? Chances are I would not hire you to work with any of my customers. In my experience any IT Pro that also resells things is biased period. No exceptions at any time. Even if the bias is the fact that is a product you know well and trust and happen to get a small amount of kick back on, it is still a bias that clouds your judgement. If an engineer isn't well rounded I will not even work with someone that is a Fan boy of anything, if they are all windows/Linux/chromebooks whatever, and push that one item for everything, I wont even consider working with them.
NTG has in the past resold a few things (now we do not) and every time for those things we resold, we resold as much or everything in a couple cases in that market. We also always passed on that kick back to the client. We get paid for the services we provide not what we sell. NOT one of the Engineering Staff provides quotes on items. They may work with a VAR to help a client get a quote but they never quote services provided or pricing on any hardware/software. That is not their job, that is my job as the CEO. I do not make recommendations to customers on products, only my Engineering team does. The two things do not meet.
Even with Webroot that @scottalanmiller mentions (and he didn't know this) we are a partner and can offer clients Webroot as part of our MSP/IT Service Provider package, this is provided at cost, we get no kick back on it. But for a client who comes to us looking specifically for Webroot that is passed off to a VAR and they sell it to the customer. I never even touch an actual invoice for a customer on this.
-
Also I operate on the trust but verify even with my team. If they are recommending something to a client I want to know why. Yes even @scottalanmiller someone has to question even him.
-
@scottalanmiller said
The second is assuming that the platform of discussion is the same as being an expert. That's not at all the case.
It's not the same as being an expert. However, running the wrong ad would certain turn off the user base.
-
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I am interested in actual case studies where this has happened. I get that sometimes a company can be oversold by a VAR, ok granted. But how about a company that was completely screwed over due to partner vendor bias?
Just look on SW. It's something like every other thread. Nearly every topic that isn't just a simple fix is someone exposing that a VAR has taken them to the cleaners. Normally they don't know that it has happened or why, or else they would have known enough not to let it happen in the first place. And if half the threads are clearly case studies of this, imagine how many never get exposed! We only see the ones that are ridiculously obvious. The ones where someone recommended a "nearly good" but not "best" solution to make some extra money go unnoticed. The ones that "work" but the people are at risk or lost money, we never see. The ones that the people just are too embarrassed to discuss or figure out themselves what happened don't need to be mentioned.
If you are looking for case studies something is wrong, it's looking for the rare example where this doesn't happen that should be the challenge.
Just look for any SAN deployment. Sure there are exceptions, but something like 99% of SAN deployments in the SMB are VARs posing as consultants and being willing to let their VAR nature not just skew them a little, but to totally rape and pillage their customers.
-
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
The question is do they ever choose them.
That's the client's choice. It doesn't change anything.
I suppose what you're saying is does the bias ever affect my work, even once.
So far, no, cause it's pennies and dimes.
You say pennies and dimes, but it's easily 50% of the pay. We've established that you cannot say that it's non-trivial. You are willing to be paid pennies and dimes from the customer, so clearly whatever the affiliate amount is must therefore be significant enough for influence.
Maybe no VAR can be objective about their own influence. Just because you have not made a conscious decision to ever promote your affiliate products in any way doesn't mean that it has never influenced you. Only way to know that is if you never recommended them, ever. That would be weird, but AFAIK is the only way to know. If you've ever attempted to use the affiliate program, I think you can't be sure that you were not influenced.
-
@prcssupport said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I know restaurants with flat and open networks, no firewalls, just computers running Xp and chugging along swiping cards on the swiper all day.
For their systems it really isn't a major risk.. well I mean their internal data can still be stolen but the POS systems for restaurants are made with their environments in mind so they either a) do credit cards over analog lines (not the greatest). or b) have hardware encrypted mag swipes. So even if there was malware on the POS terminal itself it could not see the actual Credit card data being read. It's encrypted all the way back to the payment processor.
Gas stations are really the ones to worry about lots of attack surface, and they run the POS retail systems not restaurant ones and don't secure their network like a normal retail place would.
-
@Minion-Queen said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
As an IT pro who from time to time has to reach out to other IT Pro's and MSP's to cover for a client need. I do ask what products do you resell and why? Chances are I would not hire you to work with any of my customers. In my experience any IT Pro that also resells things is biased period. No exceptions at any time.
I think we're reaching the crux of the issue at this point, at least from my perspective. Maybe others.
If I am a one-man-shop and my market is essentially residential clients to small businesses, they hire me to assess needs but also buy stuff, implement, and do all the labor. Sometimes the job is "help me Obi wan Kenobi" and they don't really know what they need, but other times they are more specific and ask for specific things.
Regardless, the point is that the work is client-directed.
My challenge to your statement is that affiliate products are side issue, they may even apply to the current job whatsoever. If I happen to go to someone's house to install a new printer, my affiliate webhost doesn't mean anything, it doesn't enter the equation at all.
An affiliate for Dell servers doesn't affect anything for a client wanting a website.
An affiliate for webhosts doesn't affect someone wanting a home NAS.
Or in the case of your example hiring for unbiased consulting, then it's simply a matter of saying "this is consulting, no affiliate products will be used" and then so be it.Once again, in other words, ONE job might allow for the possibility of using an affiliate link IF they want to. While any other job may be understood not to.
Unless of course the argument is that affiliate products absolutely affect bias even when they don't apply to the job or can even be used??
Remember, nobody gets commission for "recommending" something or even if the client buys it. There is only the possibility of commission if they specifically use a special link which is disclosed.You make it sound as though even the presence of affiliate products which may not even apply for a job, AND even if it's understood that there is no commissions, that they are still unavoidable biased and unreliable.
I get it that you all feel this way, I'm sure it's based on experience and seeing it first hand. I just ask that you have a little more faith in humanity
I'll ask Scott to stop applying false motives to myself or others. I believe fully in my simple work ethics and morals to do right by the clients and still give objective solutions. He may not ever agree, but that's on him, not me, I don't accept his accusations of being biased, whether absolute or relative or whatever a potential commission might be. -
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
If you've ever attempted to use the affiliate program, I think you can't be sure that you were not influenced.
This is just lizard-brain talk.
The question is, how did I come to recommend a particular solution? Does it fulfill all the needs of the client with room to grow, and within budget?
Only I can know the conversation in my head, and whether "gee this commission would be really nice right now" was part of that conversation.
What's funny is this conversation is just like trying to convince an addicted person that they are in fact addicted:
me: "Bob you are addicted to beer".
bob: "no I'm not!"
me: "you drink 20 cans a day"
bob: "I just like it, doesn't mean I'm addicted"
me: "so then stop drinking, if you're not addicted"
bob: "I don't have to stop, I'm not addicted, I just like it"
me: "If you can't stop, then you're addicted"
bob: "I could stop if I wanted, but I don't want to"
me: "so you're addicted"
bob: "no!"
...........Look, I've said my piece. This conversation has run its course. I believe I'm plenty objective and even if there was the "slightest chance" of the "smallest amount of bias", it's inconsequential in small-fry work like I do. No job has ever been over some hundreds in labor charges. Even if the bias toward an affiliate product were 1%, the products are still great! I have lots of bias toward my favorite products already, with or without potential affiliate links.
I only ever sign up for affiliates because I already approved and like the solutions. And not only that, but I sign up in order to put the ads on my websites, not specifically for client work. But at the end of the day if a solution comes down to one of the things I advertise, I may offer the link, I may not. Half the time the job doesn't need such a product. And half the time I do use the product, I don't both with the affiliate. This keeps me honest enough.
-
I understand where you are coming from and if you feel that this is ok for the type of work you do then ok.
But I think what everyone else is pointing out is you will remain small fry, not that that is a bad thing if that is what you want to do.
None of this that do the IT Service Provider/MSP thing full time can or will do that.
-
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Only I can know the conversation in my head, and whether "gee this commission would be really nice right now" was part of that conversation.
Actually, according to psychologists, even you can't know that. That's why I pointed out that you can only know what you are consciously influenced by, you can't know what you are subconsciously influenced by.
-
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
What's funny is this conversation is just like trying to convince an addicted person that they are in fact addicted:
me: "Bob you are addicted to beer".
bob: "no I'm not!"
me: "you drink 20 cans a day"
bob: "I just like it, doesn't mean I'm addicted"
me: "so then stop drinking, if you're not addicted"
bob: "I don't have to stop, I'm not addicted, I just like it"
me: "If you can't stop, then you're addicted"
bob: "I could stop if I wanted, but I don't want to"
me: "so you're addicted"
bob: "no!"
...........Yes, you sound a lot like me discussing beer. Oh wait, dammit.
-
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
If I am a one-man-shop and my market is essentially residential clients to small businesses, they hire me to assess needs but also buy stuff, implement, and do all the labor. Sometimes the job is "help me Obi wan Kenobi" and they don't really know what they need, but other times they are more specific and ask for specific things.
Right, that market has no consulting, it's a VAR-only market. I don't think that anyone would disagree there.
-
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
My challenge to your statement is that affiliate products are side issue, they may even apply to the current job whatsoever.
Understood but we answered this previously - anytime you talk about how it doesn't apply to every job just makes it more obvious that you are avoiding that it might apply to some jobs and it only matters if it applies sometimes. There is zero need to apply always.
-
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
If I happen to go to someone's house to install a new printer, my affiliate webhost doesn't mean anything, it doesn't enter the equation at all.
BUt that's a red herring, why keep mentioning it?
-
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Remember, nobody gets commission for "recommending" something or even if the client buys it. There is only the possibility of commission if they specifically use a special link which is disclosed.
Maybe not in YOUR case, but this is a VERY common scenario. Lots of people get paid just for recommending something. Maybe you meant to say "nobody in my scenario" rather than just nobody, but just to be clear, lots of VARs work exactly that way.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
If I am a one-man-shop and my market is essentially residential clients to small businesses, they hire me to assess needs but also buy stuff, implement, and do all the labor. Sometimes the job is "help me Obi wan Kenobi" and they don't really know what they need, but other times they are more specific and ask for specific things.
Right, that market has no consulting, it's a VAR-only market. I don't think that anyone would disagree there.
My point is that the distinction is on a per-client or per-job basis. When Minion says she could never trust to hire anyone who had affiliate products, it's a blanket statement. What if the job has nothing to do with any of those products? Or what if there is a prior assumption that those won't/can't be used in the first place?
This is why I said 1200 posts ago you were throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You can't make distinctions at the per-job level? One job is pure sales, pure VAR, pure affiliate links as free advice? While another job is more "serious" consulting where none of that applies?
I'm just curious then. Does a little leaven leaven the whole lump? Or can an independent like me do a little of this and a little of the other?
-
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I'm just curious then. Does a little leaven leaven the whole lump? Or can an independent like me do a little of this and a little of the other?
A little of both, I think. Let me give two wording examples of how I see it.
Case 1: You sell some lemonaid and you consult on computers. Are you a reseller? Yes (assuming you don't make your OWN lemonaid, of course, then you'd just be a seller.) Are you also a consultant? Yes. You can be both, there is a reasonable opportunity to know that one will not influence the other before an engagement begins.
Case 2: You sell some lemonaid and you also consult on soft drinks. Will the fact that you sell lemonaid ever influence your soft drink consulting? Almost certainly. Will it every time? Probably not. Is there a way to know ahead of time which cases it will influence and which it will not ahead of time? Not very often.
The later is the problem. Let's say you resell Cisco switches. And you consult on networking. Sometimes, you'll know before an engagement that there is no chance of there being switches involved. In that case, you can know that you can consult without the leaven of the VAR side tainting the engagement. It doesn't stop you being a VAR in general, but it does allow you to not be a VAR in the relationship. But it is rare that you would be able to know that you could be VAR-free before beginning the consulting. It's very rare that I get called in to consult and could tell you what would be likely or has no chance of being used during that consult. You just don't know until the consulting starts (most of the time.) In that case, you are kind of forced to bring the VAR nature with you - it can't be eliminated before the engagement begins.
