Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Just don't do the reselling portion Like you said, it's trivial money, no skin off your back. So just skip it, problem solved.
Well yes, trivial. Like maybe the tune of $400 in the last few years? Thus I've only thought of it as bonus money, pocket money, lunch money, coffee money. Not something that changes my entire business model, focus, and how I go about working for people.
Honestly, for that, I wouldn't bother to be thrown into this pit.
Not that $400 is nothing, but to open this kind of can of worms...
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I just don't see it as a paradox at all. The client has all priority. They will decide if my recommendations are good. They will decide if we proceed. They will decide if they want me to do the work. They will decide which option to go with. They will decide if it's all in budget. They will decide to use any affiliate links for purchases, should I provide any or have any to begin with. There is no "relationship" to an affiliate that must be maintained, no quotas, no contracts, no obligations. That is only bonus money IF the product is selected, and IF the client buys "through me".
Priority isn't enough, though. Sure, as long as they pay more, they get more priority. But you have a blend from two masters. The customer might pay $10, but the vendor pays another $5 if what the customer gets happens to be what the vendor wants. None of the things that you mention here are factors. The payment from the vendor is non-zero. That the customer doesn't always chose them... not a factor. The question is do they ever choose them.
You are always adding in absolutes to make it sound one way and always ignore that we say it can't be absolutes. You demand that it isn't "always" but that hides that we are talking about "ever". You keep not addressing that. Every time you say "always" it seems like you are acknowledging and avoiding the issue.
The issues with the above are that the customer shouldn't be primary, the should be sole. The vendor influence need not be always, just ever.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
It's no more a paradox than suggesting, as a father, that having 2 kids and a wife is a paradox, cause how can I possibly love one equally to the other? Or work for the good of one without also hurting the other? How can I be a good husband without becoming a bad father? Or be a good father without becoming a bad husband! Oh the humanity!
But you don't take payment from one of them with the promise of representing them against the interests of the others, you don't make a contractual bond to be a "team" against the others. Your kids are not out to get each other and you are not the representative of one, not the other, in that situation. This is a nonsensical comparison to the situation, like the sidewalk one. I feel like you are not understanding your relationship and obligations and ethical requirements of being a consultant - of being hired to be the buyer's agent. Not because of the affiliate thing, but because of your analogies. The way that your analogies work, I feel like you aren't sensing what being a consultant means.
If you told this analogy to your customer, that just hired you to be their representative, to be bonded to them and be on their team they would lose their sh1t. Because it suggests that you feel that the customer is like your kid (or wife) and that the vendor that you are affiliated with is like your wife (or kid.) Your analogy paints a picture of being beholden, involved with and biased towards the vendor far, far beyond the degree that we were worried about here. I'm not saying that you would be, I'm saying that in your mind the analogies that you create suggest far more problems than we are suggesting from the monetary bias problem.
It's Freudian, right? Why does your mind analogue the vendor to such a tight relationship?
If making this comparison in an analogy like this, I would have made it more like this....
The client is your child (although never tell clients that you think of them like children) and you are on a team, looking out for each other, and the vendor is another kid from across town that your kid wants to buy a trading card from. You don't want to hurt or mistreat the other kid or not treat them fairly, but you aren't there to help them out, either. You are there to make sure that your kid doesn't get jumped by bullies, lost on the way, get his money stolen, not get the trading card he was promised, not get the price he was told it would be, that the kid from across town is really another kid and not some Internet stalker, etc. Your kid looks for you to be guidance and protection against the evils and dangers in the world. That's your relationship as a consultant.
But in your analogy, the vendor is another person that you care about and want to please equally with your customer. And that analogy explains why the affiliate program is bad, it elevated, in your analogy at least, your vendor relationship up to the same as that as your customer. So this analogy from you, I feel, is the best possible way to see why the program doesn't work.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
A car salesman cannot take all customers to the cheapest car and then offer it at cost. They would be out of work in a couple days. But doing good work for clients takes place with or without affiliates. The objective is still doing good work, not selling the highest priced car.
But they can if they double dip and get paid to make the connection. Double dipping creates a lot of opportunities for making money depending on the situation. Customer not paying well... sell them something that isn't best for them but pays you well. Customer paying really well but only if they don't spend much on the solution... sell them something with no overhead.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
The facts are that adding in a payment for being a seller's agent makes an inappropriate conflict of interest that must be disclosed.
I think of it more like a tip or bonus.
A barista who puts out a tip jar doesn't become a slave of the coffee shop just because sometimes during their work, some change is dropped in. -
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Just don't do the reselling portion Like you said, it's trivial money, no skin off your back. So just skip it, problem solved.
Well yes, trivial. Like maybe the tune of $400 in the last few years? Thus I've only thought of it as bonus money, pocket money, lunch money, coffee money. Not something that changes my entire business model, focus, and how I go about working for people.
Honestly, for that, I wouldn't bother to be thrown into this pit.
Not that $400 is nothing, but to open this kind of can of worms...
I never thought it was this kind of can of worms, not at all. But then again, I never really tried to call myself a pure consultant. I've always been break/fix and general servicing.
It's obvious people already in IT have all these strong thoughts on the subject, but I've never met a normal person outside of tech, even small business owners, who are this pedantic about things. I've never had somebody flip their shat after me offering them an affiliate link as if I've just totally screwed over their entire job.
I am interested in actual case studies where this has happened. I get that sometimes a company can be oversold by a VAR, ok granted. But how about a company that was completely screwed over due to partner vendor bias?
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Just don't do the reselling portion Like you said, it's trivial money, no skin off your back. So just skip it, problem solved.
Well yes, trivial. Like maybe the tune of $400 in the last few years? Thus I've only thought of it as bonus money, pocket money, lunch money, coffee money. Not something that changes my entire business model, focus, and how I go about working for people.
Honestly, for that, I wouldn't bother to be thrown into this pit.
Not that $400 is nothing, but to open this kind of can of worms...
I never thought it was this kind of can of worms, not at all. But then again, I never really tried to call myself a pure consultant. I've always been break/fix and general servicing.
It's obvious people already in IT have all these strong thoughts on the subject, but I've never met a normal person outside of tech, even small business owners, who are this pedantic about things. I've never had somebody flip their shat after me offering them an affiliate link as if I've just totally screwed over their entire job.
I am interested in actual case studies where this has happened. I get that sometimes a company can be oversold by a VAR, ok granted. But how about a company that was completely screwed over due to partner vendor bias?
I haven't either, but I certainly understand where @scottalanmiller and others are coming from, and can definitely understand the conflict of interests.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
The question is do they ever choose them.
That's the client's choice. It doesn't change anything.
I suppose what you're saying is does the bias ever affect my work, even once.
So far, no, cause it's pennies and dimes.
Again, I've thought of affiliates in two ways up till now.
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Tip money that is just a happy bonus should an affiliate product be used for a job and bought through me. Never high dollar amounts, never a question of priorities or which "master" is really in control.
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A potential income source to offset normal fees. This point I am definitely re-evaluating now. Partnerships are a simple way to offset costs and allow one to charge less, thus undercutting competition. No matter how good I think I am, I always have to compete with the 14 year old who builds Wordpress sites on Craigslist for $50 dollars.
The cheapest website I built was a blog for $250, but the old dude wasn't hip to tech and sucked hours and hours of my time in email and phone calls, even having me come to his house, twice, for one-on-one training on how to use WP, all for $250. I wrote how-to documents fully with screenshots and even recorded a screencast and uploaded to Youtube to help explain further.
You can bet that after the fact, earning $50 extra bucks on affiliate hosting felt well justified. And this was a residential client, so bias doesn't really matter, one host is about as good as another when we're talking $6 bucks a month.
If I take away even the potential for $50, now I have to charge $300 or $500 for the same person, and for what? Because I won't be "biased" for the webhost I will STILL recommend anyway?Regardless, I think the points have been made, though I obviously don't agree with many other sentiments, especially opinion-based assumptions about ethics and such.
I'm tempted to just deleted this thread, as it went way off topic and is just a brawl. Not sure it's useful to anybody and I don't want any ill feelings going around.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
It's obvious people already in IT have all these strong thoughts on the subject, but I've never met a normal person outside of tech, even small business owners, who are this pedantic about things. I've never had somebody flip their shat after me offering them an affiliate link as if I've just totally screwed over their entire job.
Nor has a customer ever just paid you $500 for a consulting job then turn around and find out that Dell (which was in your consulting offerings) was paying you $50 because the customer bought the Dell, either.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
It's obvious people already in IT have all these strong thoughts on the subject, but I've never met a normal person outside of tech, even small business owners, who are this pedantic about things. I've never had somebody flip their shat after me offering them an affiliate link as if I've just totally screwed over their entire job.
Nor has a customer ever just paid you $500 for a consulting job then turn around and find out that Dell (which was in your consulting offerings) was paying you $50 because the customer bought the Dell, either.
You're assuming they would even care if it did happen.
Do you care if you buy something on ebay and find out they were just reselling it from Amazon with a $2 markup? Or vice versa from ebay to Amazon?
Do you care if you hire a mobile car mechanic and they install a starter from ABC company that they get a kickback for ABC starters? OMG I thought my mechanic was going to have pure, unbiased opinions about starters! Na, probably not, probably they install all their starters from ABC because they've found over the years they have the least amount of problems with them, they last a long time, have good warranties, etc.People are so hung up on whether a commission utterly destroys the quality of work, when they should be asking is, was the work performed well and the equipment quality and the right choice.
Does it matter if Dell paid the tech? Or does it matter if Dell was a good choice and works? Would you rather prefer HP without the commission? Since that has everything to do with quality of solution apparently.
You're not asking if Dell was, in fact, the best choice. You're just implying that because of a commission, Dell was more likely a skewed and thus wrong choice. Commissions don't automatically make the product a wrong choice.But the answer is no, no client "learns" I was paid, because if they buy anything "through me" that is explained at the time I offer them a link. Secondly, I didn't know Dell paid anybody anything, do they have an affiliate program? [[opens search engine....]]
Should we be completely hung up on commissions? Or does anybody care about what actually matters, like quality of work and equipment, which perfectly fulfills the needs, and is performed above and beyond the client's expectations? Maybe that should matter more. It does to me anyway, over and above some religious sense of IT piety and purity.
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@guyinpv said
Do you care if you buy something on ebay and find out they were just reselling it from Amazon with a $2 markup? Or vice versa from ebay to Amazon?
I do believe the response to this is going to be...
"Yes, but the seller on eBay wasn't recommending you buy that. You are making recommendations based on the $2 markup."
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@guyinpv said
Do you care if you hire a mobile car mechanic and they install a starter from ABC company that they get a kickback for ABC starters? OMG I thought my mechanic was going to have pure, unbiased opinions about starters! Na, probably not, probably they install all their starters from ABC because they've found over the years they have the least amount of problems with them, they last a long time, have good warranties, etc.
I believe the response to this is going to be:
"Yes, but he mechanic is a VAR. It is understood he has a relationship with a parts house. He is not giving you a recommendation on what part is best."
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Regardless, I think the points have been made, though I obviously don't agree with many other sentiments, especially opinion-based assumptions about ethics and such.
I'm tempted to just deleted this thread, as it went way off topic and is just a brawl. Not sure it's useful to anybody and I don't want any ill feelings going around.
I don't think it's strayed too far off topic as threads tend to do this naturally on their own. A brawl... Maybe, but I don't see anybody just whining and complaining that we don't think like they do.
I don't think this thread should be deleted because it shows how wide our differences are be it culture, or ethics, or simply in the way we think... It gives us all insight into one another.
One thing I have to remember when I get involved in threads like this is to not take anything personal -- even if it sounds like I should. The folks posting on this thread all have a wide variety of experience and viewpoints and when a lot of them think the same way , it can feel like they're ganging up on you, when they're really not! lol.
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@dafyre said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Regardless, I think the points have been made, though I obviously don't agree with many other sentiments, especially opinion-based assumptions about ethics and such.
I'm tempted to just deleted this thread, as it went way off topic and is just a brawl. Not sure it's useful to anybody and I don't want any ill feelings going around.
I don't think it's strayed too far off topic as threads tend to do this naturally on their own. A brawl... Maybe, but I don't see anybody just whining and complaining that we don't think like they do.
I don't think this thread should be deleted because it shows how wide our differences are be it culture, or ethics, or simply in the way we think... It gives us all insight into one another.
One thing I have to remember when I get involved in threads like this is to not take anything personal -- even if it sounds like I should. The folks posting on this thread all have a wide variety of experience and viewpoints and when a lot of them think the same way , it can feel like they're ganging up on you, when they're really not! lol.
As someone who had this fight a few months back, I feel differently about it now.
Leave the thread. In a few weeks/months you might feel differently, too.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
It's obvious people already in IT have all these strong thoughts on the subject, but I've never met a normal person outside of tech, even small business owners, who are this pedantic about things. I've never had somebody flip their shat after me offering them an affiliate link as if I've just totally screwed over their entire job.
Nor has a customer ever just paid you $500 for a consulting job then turn around and find out that Dell (which was in your consulting offerings) was paying you $50 because the customer bought the Dell, either.
You're assuming they would even care if it did happen.
Do you care if you buy something on ebay and find out they were just reselling it from Amazon with a $2 markup? Or vice versa from ebay to Amazon?Actually, yes I would be, but at myself for not looking at Amazon, not at the person selling on ebay, because that person made no representation that they are MY agent in this buying arrangement.
Do you care if you hire a mobile car mechanic and they install a starter from ABC company that they get a kickback for ABC starters? OMG I thought my mechanic was going to have pure, unbiased opinions about starters! Na, probably not, probably they install all their starters from ABC because they've found over the years they have the least amount of problems with them, they last a long time, have good warranties, etc.
Actually, it's more likely that they get the best pricing with the least amount of returns from ABC - but do I expect them to be unbiased? hell no I don't.. again, they are not my agent for buying a starter - I know a car mechanic is probably a VAR, and I'm OK with that. They might deal with 2-5 different companies for starters. They'll show me all the options, and when I ask for their opinion, I fully expect them to tell me the best one is the one with the highest markup in their favor, even if it is the best one to by or the worst one to buy.
Because they are not my agent, they are the shops agent.People are so hung up on whether a commission utterly destroys the quality of work, when they should be asking is, was the work performed well and the equipment quality and the right choice.
You are the only one using the word destroys - what it destroys is your credibility.
Does it matter if Dell paid the tech? Or does it matter if Dell was a good choice and works? Would you rather prefer HP without the commission? Since that has everything to do with quality of solution apparently.
You also seem stuck that a VAR can only resell one vendor - that's simply not the case. Our classically used CDW sells EVERY vendor. They will sell you anything you want.
You're not asking if Dell was, in fact, the best choice. You're just implying that because of a commission, Dell was more likely a skewed and thus wrong choice. Commissions don't automatically make the product a wrong choice.
Who said this? No one in this thread has EVER said this. What they said was that there is a "Chance" that the consultant's opinion could be swayed by the fact that they could get paid because of the recommendation. That is all! Is that change worth it?
But the answer is no, no client "learns" I was paid, because if they buy anything "through me" that is explained at the time I offer them a link. Secondly, I didn't know Dell paid anybody anything, do they have an affiliate program? [[opens search engine....]]
Yes they do.
Should we be completely hung up on commissions? Or does anybody care about what actually matters, like quality of work and equipment, which perfectly fulfills the needs, and is performed above and beyond the client's expectations? Maybe that should matter more. It does to me anyway, over and above some religious sense of IT piety and purity.
again, you're mashing things.... if you are installing, you're not really a consultant any more, you're now a solution provider. But if you didn't spend hours and hours pouring over information provided by the customer comparing it to the dozens of options on the market, then you really didn't consult for them either. But if you did do that, spend hours and hours.. are you doing that for free? We are saying that you shouldn't be doing that for free.
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said
Do you care if you hire a mobile car mechanic and they install a starter from ABC company that they get a kickback for ABC starters? OMG I thought my mechanic was going to have pure, unbiased opinions about starters! Na, probably not, probably they install all their starters from ABC because they've found over the years they have the least amount of problems with them, they last a long time, have good warranties, etc.
I believe the response to this is going to be:
"Yes, but he mechanic is a VAR. It is understood he has a relationship with a parts house. He is not giving you a recommendation on what part is best."
That is correct sir.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said
Do you care if you hire a mobile car mechanic and they install a starter from ABC company that they get a kickback for ABC starters? OMG I thought my mechanic was going to have pure, unbiased opinions about starters! Na, probably not, probably they install all their starters from ABC because they've found over the years they have the least amount of problems with them, they last a long time, have good warranties, etc.
I believe the response to this is going to be:
"Yes, but he mechanic is a VAR. It is understood he has a relationship with a parts house. He is not giving you a recommendation on what part is best."
That is correct sir.
I may not agree, but I can quote the other side.
I think that means I should have been in debate club or something.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
What they said was that there is a "Chance" that the consultant's opinion could be swayed by the fact that they could get paid because of the recommendation. That is all! Is that change worth it?
I dunno. Maybe the tech sleeps with his Dell rep? Should that be disclosed? Maybe there is a "chance" it causes bias too.
Maybe they worked somewhere where they paid him a handsome sum of cash to go to Dell training and now he kinda feel obligated to use that training and knowledge. Should that be disclosed?
Maybe he just really really likes Dell and they gave him a free sandwich once at the college Dell job fair booth. Disclose?
Maybe his favorite podcasts and screencast shows play Dell ads all the time and have Dell products and he's somewhat brainwashed because the costar is hot and there is a lot of subliminal stuff going on. Disclose?Why is it a that a consultant is expected to just overcome ALL other biases to do a good job, and that's ok, but ONLY particularly monetary bias it's impossible to overcome ever because there might be one "chance" the bias wins? Some people would probably rather sleep with the Dell rep than get a few affiliate bonuses here and there. Seems a much bigger bias to me.
If all we're saying is it should be avoided due to one possible chance at any time ever, then this pretty much condemns ALL forms of bias, cause they might win sometimes too. We might as well just disclose that we are humans, and we might like some stuff better than other stuff. And that we can only be controlled by our lizard brains whenever money is involved but never for any other reason.
I get it that people have heard many stories of companies being hurt by biased consultants or VARs or whatever, I get it.
But the allure of the bias is also based on need, not only want. If a tech company builds into their revenue structure a dependence on affiliate income as a core strategy, they will be in trouble.
Just like I don't go shopping on an empty stomach, I throw everything in the basket and spend twice as much. If a company builds their structure on a dependence of commissions, they are in trouble.
Not only will be more willing to get the sale, but they'll be more willing to not disclose, because after all, it's a value added service, they get a better rate because we depend on the commissions. I'll help you get what you want as long as you get it through me because my business depends on it.On the other hand, if commissions play no part of your business plan and you don't need them. It's just a tip jar and inconsequential to the work, nor does it effect your fee. Nor do you care if the client uses you or not for the things they buy.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
If someone is looking for a VAR, nothing wrong with being the VAR. If they want a VAR and get a consultant, that's not good either. Why someone would want that, normally is for bad reasons, but it is their own reasons.
this is an interesting point that you have brought up before. I'm not sure that SMB typically go in search of a consultant vs a VAR - and this is a pretty big rub. I think that most of us by know realize that the SMBs rarely know what they want or way they want it. We realize that they probably really do NEED a consultant to design the correct solution for them, but they don't understand this (because they aren't doing business, instead they are playing at it, as Scott would say).
No, they go in search of "buying a box", which means that they are looking for a VAR, but they come at is from a "I want to buy a THING" instead of a "I want help" perspective. That that brings that to looking for a VAR is just the result.
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@dafyre said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
If someone is looking for a VAR, nothing wrong with being the VAR. If they want a VAR and get a consultant, that's not good either. Why someone would want that, normally is for bad reasons, but it is their own reasons.
this is an interesting point that you have brought up before. I'm not sure that SMB typically go in search of a consultant vs a VAR - and this is a pretty big rub. I think that most of us by know realize that the SMBs rarely know what they want or way they want it. We realize that they probably really do NEED a consultant to design the correct solution for them, but they don't understand this (because they aren't doing business, instead they are playing at it, as Scott would say).
And as a result, they wind up using the folks that have a team to "help them".... when that team is really designed to help the VAR / vendor.
Right, if they don't look after their own interests and/or hire an IT/MSP/ITSP person or company to do so, then they are just throwing themselves to the VAR/vendor wolves.
