Windows 11 versus 10
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@Dashrender said in Windows 11 versus 10:
I mean I guess it's possible they are innovating there - ever increasing performance - can you provide any examples?
Well for example Mac heavily is innovating on the hardware side giving dramatically more power / performance with lower power consumption at a lower price than the Windows world. They've flipped the tables on Windows making it impractically expensive to use Windows on AMD64 for mid-performance applications (like video editing.)
In the Linux world you have heavy workflow innovation with new workspace and interaction design taking the lead with experimentation and improvements in how people work with their operating systems.
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@Dashrender said in Windows 11 versus 10:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 11 versus 10:
@siringo said in Windows 11 versus 10:
I just hate these bloody upgrades or whatever you want to call them.
When I was younger it was exciting/interesting, now it's just a PITA.
I hate them because I know they will move or make you have to do something unimportant, that you have always done, be done differently. Where's notepad? Oh it's called Scribbler now. Where's Windows Explorer? Oh it's called File Finder.
Why do we have to learn new names for the same old crap.
Imagine doing that with cars. Press the accelerator, oh it's called the Make it faster button now!
I don't care about the new tech tricks and improvements, I just want to use my PC and get my work done so my day is as stress free as possible.
Old grumpy bastard complaining, yeah, probably. Don't worry, it'll happen to you.
Really only a Windows thing. They rename to distract from the lack of innovation.
my question is - do they need innovation? Other than performance improvements - is windows 10/11 any better than windows 7? performance is an under the hood thing...
This is a business tool - not some stupid home gadget - Windows doesn't need flashing lights.Is this what people said when windows 95 came out and replaced 3.11? I don’t get the hate from people for changing the looks. As time goes on, people find better ways to interact with systems esp with touch screens being prevalent and the ever changing landscape of screen sizes.
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@stacksofplates said in Windows 11 versus 10:
Is this what people said when windows 95 came out and replaced 3.11?
Basically yes. Every version of Windows has been a very small incremental update from the users perspective.
The overlapping windows user interface was established with Windows 2.03 and to be honest, it worked pretty much the same then as it does today.
Sometimes there has been under-the-hood changes but usually also very incremental. With the notable exception of Windows NT which was a completely different OS under the hood.
Windows 95 didn't exactly replace 3.11 because Microsoft replaced 3.11 with Windows NT 3.1 for business users and Windows 95 for consumers. Different kernels under the hood.
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@stacksofplates said in Windows 11 versus 10:
@Dashrender said in Windows 11 versus 10:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 11 versus 10:
@siringo said in Windows 11 versus 10:
I just hate these bloody upgrades or whatever you want to call them.
When I was younger it was exciting/interesting, now it's just a PITA.
I hate them because I know they will move or make you have to do something unimportant, that you have always done, be done differently. Where's notepad? Oh it's called Scribbler now. Where's Windows Explorer? Oh it's called File Finder.
Why do we have to learn new names for the same old crap.
Imagine doing that with cars. Press the accelerator, oh it's called the Make it faster button now!
I don't care about the new tech tricks and improvements, I just want to use my PC and get my work done so my day is as stress free as possible.
Old grumpy bastard complaining, yeah, probably. Don't worry, it'll happen to you.
Really only a Windows thing. They rename to distract from the lack of innovation.
my question is - do they need innovation? Other than performance improvements - is windows 10/11 any better than windows 7? performance is an under the hood thing...
This is a business tool - not some stupid home gadget - Windows doesn't need flashing lights.Is this what people said when windows 95 came out and replaced 3.11? I don’t get the hate from people for changing the looks. As time goes on, people find better ways to interact with systems esp with touch screens being prevalent and the ever changing landscape of screen sizes.
Sure - things definitely were easier in Win95 compared to Win3.11 - but I would say that things aren't any easier today than they were in Win11 vs Win95.
I've used a Mac literally like 3 times - I have no clue if their interface has become more efficient over the years. and the same from a desktop POV on Linux based systems (though I would love to see some examples how the Linux desktop GUI has made things better workflow wise over the past whatever timeframe you like).
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@stacksofplates said in Windows 11 versus 10:
@Dashrender said in Windows 11 versus 10:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 11 versus 10:
@siringo said in Windows 11 versus 10:
I just hate these bloody upgrades or whatever you want to call them.
When I was younger it was exciting/interesting, now it's just a PITA.
I hate them because I know they will move or make you have to do something unimportant, that you have always done, be done differently. Where's notepad? Oh it's called Scribbler now. Where's Windows Explorer? Oh it's called File Finder.
Why do we have to learn new names for the same old crap.
Imagine doing that with cars. Press the accelerator, oh it's called the Make it faster button now!
I don't care about the new tech tricks and improvements, I just want to use my PC and get my work done so my day is as stress free as possible.
Old grumpy bastard complaining, yeah, probably. Don't worry, it'll happen to you.
Really only a Windows thing. They rename to distract from the lack of innovation.
my question is - do they need innovation? Other than performance improvements - is windows 10/11 any better than windows 7? performance is an under the hood thing...
This is a business tool - not some stupid home gadget - Windows doesn't need flashing lights.Is this what people said when windows 95 came out and replaced 3.11? I don’t get the hate from people for changing the looks. As time goes on, people find better ways to interact with systems esp with touch screens being prevalent and the ever changing landscape of screen sizes.
I'm not hating on the looks ( I just don't care about the differences - because to me they are differences for the sake of visual differences, but the function is nearly the same).
Sure MS has added snap to edge/snip tool/AV/firewall/etc - so yes there are improvements - but the user barely sees those things - hence people asking - what's different? - oh, nothing? yeah figures.
Of course Win8 was a HUGE change and people hated it - and MS backpeddled and went closer to Win7 when they released Win10.
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@Dashrender said in Windows 11 versus 10:
@stacksofplates said in Windows 11 versus 10:
@Dashrender said in Windows 11 versus 10:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 11 versus 10:
@siringo said in Windows 11 versus 10:
I just hate these bloody upgrades or whatever you want to call them.
When I was younger it was exciting/interesting, now it's just a PITA.
I hate them because I know they will move or make you have to do something unimportant, that you have always done, be done differently. Where's notepad? Oh it's called Scribbler now. Where's Windows Explorer? Oh it's called File Finder.
Why do we have to learn new names for the same old crap.
Imagine doing that with cars. Press the accelerator, oh it's called the Make it faster button now!
I don't care about the new tech tricks and improvements, I just want to use my PC and get my work done so my day is as stress free as possible.
Old grumpy bastard complaining, yeah, probably. Don't worry, it'll happen to you.
Really only a Windows thing. They rename to distract from the lack of innovation.
my question is - do they need innovation? Other than performance improvements - is windows 10/11 any better than windows 7? performance is an under the hood thing...
This is a business tool - not some stupid home gadget - Windows doesn't need flashing lights.Is this what people said when windows 95 came out and replaced 3.11? I don’t get the hate from people for changing the looks. As time goes on, people find better ways to interact with systems esp with touch screens being prevalent and the ever changing landscape of screen sizes.
Sure - things definitely were easier in Win95 compared to Win3.11 - but I would say that things aren't any easier today than they were in Win11 vs Win95.
I've used a Mac literally like 3 times - I have no clue if their interface has become more efficient over the years. and the same from a desktop POV on Linux based systems (though I would love to see some examples how the Linux desktop GUI has made things better workflow wise over the past whatever timeframe you like).
Windows 95's big UI change was the introduction of the start menu and taskbar.
The guy who did the UI work back then said that he was unimpressed with Windows 10 because he thought nothing had changed in more than 20 years.
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@Pete-S said in Windows 11 versus 10:
@Dashrender said in Windows 11 versus 10:
@stacksofplates said in Windows 11 versus 10:
@Dashrender said in Windows 11 versus 10:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 11 versus 10:
@siringo said in Windows 11 versus 10:
I just hate these bloody upgrades or whatever you want to call them.
When I was younger it was exciting/interesting, now it's just a PITA.
I hate them because I know they will move or make you have to do something unimportant, that you have always done, be done differently. Where's notepad? Oh it's called Scribbler now. Where's Windows Explorer? Oh it's called File Finder.
Why do we have to learn new names for the same old crap.
Imagine doing that with cars. Press the accelerator, oh it's called the Make it faster button now!
I don't care about the new tech tricks and improvements, I just want to use my PC and get my work done so my day is as stress free as possible.
Old grumpy bastard complaining, yeah, probably. Don't worry, it'll happen to you.
Really only a Windows thing. They rename to distract from the lack of innovation.
my question is - do they need innovation? Other than performance improvements - is windows 10/11 any better than windows 7? performance is an under the hood thing...
This is a business tool - not some stupid home gadget - Windows doesn't need flashing lights.Is this what people said when windows 95 came out and replaced 3.11? I don’t get the hate from people for changing the looks. As time goes on, people find better ways to interact with systems esp with touch screens being prevalent and the ever changing landscape of screen sizes.
Sure - things definitely were easier in Win95 compared to Win3.11 - but I would say that things aren't any easier today than they were in Win11 vs Win95.
I've used a Mac literally like 3 times - I have no clue if their interface has become more efficient over the years. and the same from a desktop POV on Linux based systems (though I would love to see some examples how the Linux desktop GUI has made things better workflow wise over the past whatever timeframe you like).
Windows 95's big UI change was the introduction of the start menu and taskbar.
The guy who did the UI work back then said that he was unimpressed with Windows 10 because he thought nothing had changed in more than 20 years.
From a general standpoint - I completely agree with him.
And really - how is Mac's GUI or any of the Linux GUI's really any better.Scott jump to hardware, while completely outside the specific discussion of OS's, at least does show a value prop on the Mac side if you can make the switch.
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@scottalanmiller said in Windows 11 versus 10:
In the Linux world you have heavy workflow innovation with new workspace and interaction design taking the lead with experimentation and improvements in how people work with their operating systems.
The Windows world has that too, but we don't say Windows has improved because Adobe Reader improved, versus saying Linux improved because Gnome improved... or are you just referring to the Linux kernel?
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Hated Vista, moved to Linux. I wasn't supporting Linux, so jumped to XP, was happy with XP. Then happier with 7. Didn't use 8. 10 is OK, 11? Not even looked at it, I have no need, just like I had no need to look at 7, 8 or 10.
As for improvements in workflow, users put shortcuts to the things they use on the desktop & taskbar, you've been able to do that since 95 so maybe there is no improvement since then.
If the UI is altered and generic apps renamed, the workflow will drop/decrease until the changes are learnt. So is there any benefit at all in changing the UI and names???
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@Obsolesce said in Windows 11 versus 10:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 11 versus 10:
In the Linux world you have heavy workflow innovation with new workspace and interaction design taking the lead with experimentation and improvements in how people work with their operating systems.
The Windows world has that too, but we don't say Windows has improved because Adobe Reader improved, versus saying Linux improved because Gnome improved... or are you just referring to the Linux kernel?
No, I'm referring to the workflow for the user. And I didn't way that Windows didn't improve, it has, a lot. But it didn't innovate. It copies. It waits until Linux (or sometimes Mac) proves something is better, waits until it's laughable that Windows is not doing it yet, then changes the look and feel to match what people have been using more effectively for a long time.
Adobe Reader is also a lot different then Gnome. Adobe Reader is an unnecessary third party application that is in no way part of Windows. Gnome is the desktop environment iself, the very thing we call Windows in the Windows world. It's part of the OS, and the environment itself.
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@Dashrender said in Windows 11 versus 10:
And really - how is Mac's GUI or any of the Linux GUI's really any better.
Mac is not, most Linux dramatically is. Smoother, more intuitive, designed to aid in your workflow. If you study UX design, one is an example of more research, another is not. Mac, from a UX standpoint, is a trainwreck of inefficiency.
You say it as if you think they are all similar. You need to use them more. Windows is good, but only because it copies what Linux has done well for a decade or more. Mac users don't care about efficiency, that's not their market, so they just don't care.
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@Pete-S said in Windows 11 versus 10:
The guy who did the UI work back then said that he was unimpressed with Windows 10 because he thought nothing had changed in more than 20 years.
Then he's an idiot. It only takes a few seconds using both to feel the changes. No doubt, Windoes 95 was a massive leap in Microsoft's interface design. It was the addition of a menu! The first move past just "files on the desktop." The first that really understood apps to be "installed" rather than just sitting there.
But if he thinks there's been no changes, innovation, improvements (and mistakes) then he doesn't know his ass from a whole in the ground. But, that's about what you'd expect from someone doing UX design at MS.
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@Dashrender said in Windows 11 versus 10:
but I would say that things aren't any easier today than they were in Win11 vs Win95.
Um, what? you need to go use Win95 again to remind yourself how clunky it was.
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@Pete-S said in Windows 11 versus 10:
Windows 95 didn't exactly replace 3.11 because Microsoft replaced 3.11 with Windows NT 3.1 for business users and Windows 95 for consumers. Different kernels under the hood.
Windows 95 was the direct replacement for Windows 3.11. NT 3.1 was numbered that way because it specifically was not a replacement, but a new side by side product path. So there was a time when you had Windows 3.1 and Windows NT 3.1 and both progressed with their own numbering scheme side by side. Windows was never replaced with Windows NT, they were two competing products from MS for most of a decade (1993 - 2001.) The first NT product was 1993, the last Windows product was 2001 (Windows ME.)
Windows was always the DOS/Windows family.
Windows remains the NT family.Windows 3.1, 3.11, 95, 95 OSR2 were all considered business.
The idea that the DOS family was for consumers didn't happen until Windows 98 released and they officially stated it was no longer for business. But 95 was very much designed and promoted to be a business tool. And it had the modernized interface before NT did (NT 4 got the first redesign in 1996, a year later.)
Windows 98, 98SE and ME were the only "consumer only" DOS products.
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@stacksofplates said in Windows 11 versus 10:
@Dashrender said in Windows 11 versus 10:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 11 versus 10:
@siringo said in Windows 11 versus 10:
I just hate these bloody upgrades or whatever you want to call them.
When I was younger it was exciting/interesting, now it's just a PITA.
I hate them because I know they will move or make you have to do something unimportant, that you have always done, be done differently. Where's notepad? Oh it's called Scribbler now. Where's Windows Explorer? Oh it's called File Finder.
Why do we have to learn new names for the same old crap.
Imagine doing that with cars. Press the accelerator, oh it's called the Make it faster button now!
I don't care about the new tech tricks and improvements, I just want to use my PC and get my work done so my day is as stress free as possible.
Old grumpy bastard complaining, yeah, probably. Don't worry, it'll happen to you.
Really only a Windows thing. They rename to distract from the lack of innovation.
my question is - do they need innovation? Other than performance improvements - is windows 10/11 any better than windows 7? performance is an under the hood thing...
This is a business tool - not some stupid home gadget - Windows doesn't need flashing lights.Is this what people said when windows 95 came out and replaced 3.11? I don’t get the hate from people for changing the looks. As time goes on, people find better ways to interact with systems esp with touch screens being prevalent and the ever changing landscape of screen sizes.
Exactly. Those little things that "feel" like it is just the looks, they matter. Somethings it is truly only the looks, but even if it is, if it makes it more pleasant to look at all day, easier to read, faster to find what you need, less confusing, more conducive to productivity, more likely to make you enjoy working... then it matters.
Imagine if architects, interior designers, UX designers and so forth were condescending to IT in the same way...
"Oh, it's only hardware performance. Who cares, it doesn't change the look so it's like not even a thing."
It's crazy that we act like the look and feel don't matter when that's what matters most to 95% of users (and businesses.) It's more important than security or performance to most people.
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@stacksofplates said in Windows 11 versus 10:
and the ever changing landscape of screen sizes.
I think we all want giant screens. That's more just a manufacturing and cost thing IMHO.
You don't need "development" for me to tell you that I want enormous screens with high resolutions, lol. I just need them to be affordable and available.
