How do you guys handle counter offers?
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@scottalanmiller said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
@IRJ said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
@JasGot said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
@IRJ said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
The fact that he is out of the one man shop and onto something bigger is an additional factor as well.
A HUGELY positive factor.
oh yeah of course. I dont know how people get stuck in 1 man shops for so long
Because it's often really comfortable and once you are in you tend to feel badly for the company because leaving seems impossible for them to handle. So you tend to stay.
I dealt with being a 1 man band for 3 years, never again. I'd rather cut off an appendage.
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@magicmarker said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
@JasGot Thank you for your insight.
My current employer left me as the sole IT department for 250 employees for over 10 years. I was doing help desk and project management. This was only ONE of the many factors I was looking for change. I believe the company never put a contingency plan in place if I were to leave, or get hit by a bus for that matter. When I put in my notice, they realized they had no job description for my title. I was asked to write a job description for them to use for recruitment. I was pretty shocked by that.
The company is simply trying to solve a problem now by countering and getting me to stay. They put themselves in a bind. HR mentioned that employees will want to leave if take another job. That is somewhat flattering, but what in the world does that say about the company then?
I think that's more common than you think.
I was a one man band for a few years and loved it. There's pros and cons with any job but I'm surprised by the negativity on here. My experience was generally positive.
I also don't agree with the negativity around counter offers. They can work out. You've ended up in a position where you are massively important to your employer and they have been forced to recognise that and they've responded in a positive way.
I don't buy the poisoned well argument. Not least because of the concept of confirmation bias. They would look back at the situation in a positive way rather than negative - "our employee is awesome and we expertly negotiated him to stay and averted a crisis". You might think they would then put in contingencies to dilute your importance (and maybe even fire you later) but companies are generally content to just kick the can down the road and carry on as if nothing happened. They might treat you with greater respect.
Ultimately you know what you want and you know your employer so none of us can say, I just think that staying "could" be good for you.
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@Carnival-Boy Finally a different point of view. Thank you.
After going through this experience I think the best advice I can give is to talk with your boss about your pain points. Ask your company to hire help if you are struggling to keep up. Ask for a raise prior to looking for a new job. Maybe your company can accommodate your requests to help you feel more satisfied in your employment. It’s important to try to see if your current working conditions can be improved before making such big life changes.
I have been in my current position as an IT Manager for the past 12 years. In the IT industry, 12 years in the same position can sometimes hurt your career. While this shows loyalty and reliability to your company, it can also indicate that you have not learned anything new and have become stagnant in the status quo. The environment gets stale and you have less challenges. It's easy to get the itch for change.
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I definitely miss my 1-man show job. I entered as a junior tech, and left as a intermediate tech. Then I came back and left again as senior tech (though I didn't realize it yet). I'd go back again if I could.
Now I work on a 6 person team and do way more overtime hours. At the 1-man IT job, when I complained about after hours 'emergencies' I was able to get a new design approved that made them not emergencies any more.
A big plus to the 1-man show was having the time to really dive into things and learn them thoroughly.
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@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
I also don't agree with the negativity around counter offers. They can work out.
It can never work out unless the company is really that stupid.
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@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
You've ended up in a position where you are massively important to your employer and they have been forced to recognise that and they've responded in a positive way.
This is certainly not positive in any way. They have simply been forced to pay you more until they can replace you on their terms (i.e. no unemployment). You are in not in a position of massive importance to the employer. That is only in your head.
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@JaredBusch said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
You are in not in a position of massive importance to the employer. That is only in your head.
^^^ This for sure. Will things not run as smoothly? Likely. Will shit hit the fan? Possibly. But businesses of this size tend to be pretty resilient. And while your way might have been better, typically someone can step in and get them going when something happens, even if it means just swapping out a most of the previous setup.
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@flaxking said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
@JaredBusch said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
You are in not in a position of massive importance to the employer. That is only in your head.
^^^ This for sure. Will things not run as smoothly? Likely. Will shit hit the fan? Possibly. But businesses of this size tend to be pretty resilient. And while your way might have been better, typically someone can step in and get them going when something happens, even if it means just swapping out a most of the previous setup.
Yeah, they can always bring in an MSP for less than the cost of that sole "IT Manager" I'm sure.
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@JaredBusch said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
I also don't agree with the negativity around counter offers. They can work out.
It can never work out unless the company is really that stupid.
Feels like anyone who doesn't conform to your world view must, therefore, be "stupid".
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@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
@JaredBusch said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
I also don't agree with the negativity around counter offers. They can work out.
It can never work out unless the company is really that stupid.
Feels like anyone who doesn't conform to your world view must, therefore, be "stupid".
Nearly everyone recommends not taking counteroffers, it's not @JaredBusch view such specifically.
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I'm not recommending anyone takes a counter offer. I'm saying that there are occasions when it can work out. Calling people stupid when you don't know the circumstances is OTT.
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@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
I also don't agree with the negativity around counter offers. They can work out. You've ended up in a position where you are massively important to your employer and they have been forced to recognise that and they've responded in a positive way.
I would disagree with "in a positive way". Counter offers are a negative way. Being "forced" to recognize it under extortion is a "negative way". Having an employee willing to interview elsewhere but then go back to the "scorned lover" is a negative way. It makes all things negative. Can it work out? I don't believe so, if it appears to have worked out, it highlights how badly the situation was already going and the bar for what is positive and negative is skewed. It means it's a disrespectful relationship on both sides when it appears to have worked out.
Counter offers mean pay through extortion. You can't argue that people like being extorted. And people don't like having to extort. When it works out, it just means the situation has to be so bad that the extortion isn't the bad part.
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@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
I don't buy the poisoned well argument. Not least because of the concept of confirmation bias. They would look back at the situation in a positive way rather than negative - "our employee is awesome and we expertly negotiated him to stay and averted a crisis".
Basically I read this as "crappy people working with crappy people are okay with how crappy things are." Everything about the situation is bad. Having to convince someone else to give you an offer so you can threaten your current employer to get raises you feel you should already have gotten as a process... if that makes someone happy looking back, I feel that that makes our point.
You might think they would then put in contingencies to dilute your importance (and maybe even fire you later) but companies are generally content to just kick the can down the road and carry on as if nothing happened. They might treat you with greater respect.
Right.. bad companies act badly. But bad companies also make bad situations. Everything is "bad" in the scenario you describe. The people, the situation, the company. There's nothing good other than "you got more money in the short term", but that was already the assumption with the other offer so isn't a "good" per se.
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@JaredBusch said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
I also don't agree with the negativity around counter offers. They can work out.
It can never work out unless the company is really that stupid.
And even then, again, just describing an overall bad situation. We replace the worry that it will sour the individual relationship with a bigger "the entire situation on a bigger scale is bad."
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@JaredBusch said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
You've ended up in a position where you are massively important to your employer and they have been forced to recognise that and they've responded in a positive way.
This is certainly not positive in any way. They have simply been forced to pay you more until they can replace you on their terms (i.e. no unemployment). You are in not in a position of massive importance to the employer. That is only in your head.
They won't always replace you. That's highly likely, but if they don't replace you it might be even worse. It's always negative, but not always in that one specific way.
A company that would even give a counter offer is bad, but maybe because they just don't have raise processes. Maybe they don't think of any employee has having value. Maybe they are just cheap bastards and hope everyone can be pressured into low pay. Lots of options. But all bad.
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@Obsolesce said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
@flaxking said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
@JaredBusch said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
You are in not in a position of massive importance to the employer. That is only in your head.
^^^ This for sure. Will things not run as smoothly? Likely. Will shit hit the fan? Possibly. But businesses of this size tend to be pretty resilient. And while your way might have been better, typically someone can step in and get them going when something happens, even if it means just swapping out a most of the previous setup.
Yeah, they can always bring in an MSP for less than the cost of that sole "IT Manager" I'm sure.
This is essentially guaranteed. I've never found a situation where the IT manager couldn't be replaced for less, while getting more value to the business, unless the IT manager was like volunteering, and even then it's pretty competitive.
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@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
@JaredBusch said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
I also don't agree with the negativity around counter offers. They can work out.
It can never work out unless the company is really that stupid.
Feels like anyone who doesn't conform to your world view must, therefore, be "stupid".
If it feels that way, it would be an emotional defense response because in no way is that what he said. What he said is very logical, just missing the "why". In order for it to "work out" the company has to be doing really dumb things, taking on unnecessary cost and risk, and not treating employees effectively. That's... stupid in business terms. It's that simple.
Stupid isn't smart. Saying it "works out" is misleading. That's the "it worked for me" fallacy. We can't define the job as being good only because you are able to keep it... the overall situation is still a negative. You have a "stupid" company that only pays under extortion and doesn't value their employees, you have employees that work at a place that they know doesn't value them and isn't happy with what they are paid. Both parties are in a bad position. Just because there are times that the employee gets to stay and the company doesn't reduce their pay later doesn't imply it "worked out".
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@Carnival-Boy said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
I'm not recommending anyone takes a counter offer. I'm saying that there are occasions when it can work out. Calling people stupid when you don't know the circumstances is OTT.
- Only you applied the word "stupid" to the people. Jared called the business stupid.
- We are saying that when people say it worked out, that's just something that people say but if you look at those situations, they have to lower the bar as to what "working out" means to make the claim.
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Keep in mind the options are not "no raise" or "raise through extortion". Those are both bad outcomes (assuming that you deserve a raise.) The right outcome is getting a raise without extortion. This can be from automatic raises or from requesting one. Automatic is nicer, but requested isn't wrong.
If you have any faith in your company, you'll feel comfortable discussing a raise with them. This is a normal part of being an employee.
Using "I have another offer from another company" means that either you didn't trust your current employer to give you the raise that you felt you deserved, or that you felt you could get more by having another offer on the table; or that you tried and they determined you not to be worth what you were asking. Or the extremely rare "I wasn't looking but someone made me an offer", which does happen, but is super crazy rare and mostly only through family connections or being famous.
Because the only real ways that you could have an offer are ways that mean that the well is already poisoned in the first place (you don't believe in the management of your company and/or they don't believe in you, or both) and so it's not the counter offer that poisons the well, a counter offer itself is an artefact of an already poisoned well - you and your employer couldn't come to an agreement without bringing in an extortion element and threatening to quit if you don't get your way.
There is a good way to get raises and to discuss raises in a good company. And there is a counter offer. But the counter offer isn't what's wrong, its the situation that brought you to the point of having a counter offer in the first place. Once there is an opportunity for there to be a counter offer, the need to move on is already solidly in place.
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@scottalanmiller said in How do you guys handle counter offers?:
- We are saying that when people say it worked out, that's just something that people say but if you look at those situations, they have to lower the bar as to what "working out" means to make the claim.
By "lower the bar" you mean doing the same job but earning 50% more money. Yes, I think a lot of people would take that.
Anyway, it sounds like the OP handed in his notice and his employer is trying to persuade him to change his mind. That's not extortion. That's normal. It sounds like his mind is made up anyway, so fair play for sticking to his guns. I don't know if I would for that kind of money. I'd be tempted to stick around as I could then find another job if it didn't work out. But it is definitely not extortion.
