Solved Email server options
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@JaredBusch said in Email server options:
@scottalanmiller said in Email server options:
@Dashrender said in Email server options:
I suppose you're both going to tell me that I don't need to use enterprise class drives... or that PCM is screwing me.
Nope, I think Jared is just not considering the real world cost of SSD storage with enterprise support. I think he likely was thinking of non-SSD storage for email. That is what might make more sense, email is rarely that sensitive to throughput for its core storage.
Jared is just thinking that @Dashrender does not know what he is buying.
The listed drive is a 2.5", 12GB/s, 1TB, 7.2k SAS (but I assume NL SAS because 7.2K) drive.
Xbyte has that same "Dell" drive for $249.
Does he need 12GB/s? Does his RAID card backplane support that?
Why get 1TB drives in the first place? Very often that is more expensive than larger drives.
Last time I bought new drives, I requested 1TB, but the VAR said, that 2TB were cheaper, so I bought those.
Oh, I missed that it was two different pictures. I thought he had SSDs at that price. Yeah, there are cheaper ways to do spinning drivers.
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@scottalanmiller said in Email server options:
@JaredBusch said in Email server options:
@scottalanmiller said in Email server options:
@Dashrender said in Email server options:
I suppose you're both going to tell me that I don't need to use enterprise class drives... or that PCM is screwing me.
Nope, I think Jared is just not considering the real world cost of SSD storage with enterprise support. I think he likely was thinking of non-SSD storage for email. That is what might make more sense, email is rarely that sensitive to throughput for its core storage.
Jared is just thinking that @Dashrender does not know what he is buying.
The listed drive is a 2.5", 12GB/s, 1TB, 7.2k SAS (but I assume NL SAS because 7.2K) drive.
Xbyte has that same "Dell" drive for $249.
Does he need 12GB/s? Does his RAID card backplane support that?
Why get 1TB drives in the first place? Very often that is more expensive than larger drives.
Last time I bought new drives, I requested 1TB, but the VAR said, that 2TB were cheaper, so I bought those.
Oh, I missed that it was two different pictures. I thought he had SSDs at that price. Yeah, there are cheaper ways to do spinning drivers.
I showed two options - the winchesters and the SSDs.
I only wanted to get a price comparison for SSDs - and at this price point, the minor extra cost would likely be worth the performance boost...
But if 2 TB drives are really cheaper - of course my vendor didn't tell me that possibility - and the price divide is greater, then I'd go with the 2 TB drives.
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I would also count Zimbra NE and Zimbra free + Zimlets. That backup and push notifications are a huge boon, not to mention being able to delegate admin tasks per domain (I manage a company with 15 domains on a single Zimbra server)
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Always go with 3.5" storage when you need some volume but not SSD speed.
Ultrastar 12TB 7.2K SAS-3 drives are about $400 each. 12TB RAID-1 becomes about $800 for 12TB storage. That's 6.7 cents per GB of data. -
@scottalanmiller said in Email server options:
Samsung EVO 970 1TB for $250. If you want 4TB of usable and bought 8 of these for RAID 10 it would be $2,000.
So if you are getting enterprise drives from the server vendor themselves, I could see $3,200.
Would you trust running your business on those EVO drives? I mean I would assume they would work, But enterprise class drives do have some value, but perhaps just not enough value?
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@Dashrender said in Email server options:
@scottalanmiller said in Email server options:
Samsung EVO 970 1TB for $250. If you want 4TB of usable and bought 8 of these for RAID 10 it would be $2,000.
So if you are getting enterprise drives from the server vendor themselves, I could see $3,200.
Would you trust running your business on those EVO drives? I mean I would assume they would work, But enterprise class drives do have some value, but perhaps just not enough value?
Prices are not that different between enthusiast consumer drives and enterprise drives.
We pay about $200 for Samsung Enterprise SSD PM983 960GB, NVMe M.2.Also, there is also almost no point in striping on NVMe. So you buy larger drives if you want more storage.
For about 4TB it would be the 2x PM983 3.84TB, NVMe M.2 @ $700 in RAID-1. So about $1400 or so, give or take.That's a few hundred less for an enterprise solution compared to 8 of the consumer drives.
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@Dashrender said in Email server options:
@scottalanmiller said in Email server options:
Samsung EVO 970 1TB for $250. If you want 4TB of usable and bought 8 of these for RAID 10 it would be $2,000.
So if you are getting enterprise drives from the server vendor themselves, I could see $3,200.
Would you trust running your business on those EVO drives? I mean I would assume they would work, But enterprise class drives do have some value, but perhaps just not enough value?
Sure
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@scottalanmiller said in Email server options:
@Dashrender said in Email server options:
@scottalanmiller said in Email server options:
Samsung EVO 970 1TB for $250. If you want 4TB of usable and bought 8 of these for RAID 10 it would be $2,000.
So if you are getting enterprise drives from the server vendor themselves, I could see $3,200.
Would you trust running your business on those EVO drives? I mean I would assume they would work, But enterprise class drives do have some value, but perhaps just not enough value?
Sure
Split all that shit to a new thread please.
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@Curtis said in Email server options:
Mailcow offers domain admins as well, so everyone could still have complete control of their domain.
Create accounts, alias, etc.
ok, not liking mailcow because of this. I'm sorry, but I need something with something more than one person behind it.
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@JaredBusch more than one person it seems.
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@JaredBusch it’s been around since 2015 - https://www.lowendtalk.com/discussion/58855/mailcow-a-complete-mail-server-suite
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@Curtis said in Email server options:
@JaredBusch it’s been around since 2015 - https://www.lowendtalk.com/discussion/58855/mailcow-a-complete-mail-server-suite
Lots of things have been around a long time. That does not mean I will use them.
Jury is still out on Mailcow.
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@Pete-S said in Email server options:
Always go with 3.5" storage when you need some volume but not SSD speed.
Ultrastar 12TB 7.2K SAS-3 drives are about $400 each. 12TB RAID-1 becomes about $800 for 12TB storage. That's 6.7 cents per GB of data.How long will it take for a raid array to rebuild on a 12Tb disk?
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@dyasny said in Email server options:
@Pete-S said in Email server options:
Always go with 3.5" storage when you need some volume but not SSD speed.
Ultrastar 12TB 7.2K SAS-3 drives are about $400 each. 12TB RAID-1 becomes about $800 for 12TB storage. That's 6.7 cents per GB of data.How long will it take for a raid array to rebuild on a 12Tb disk?
The time it takes to copy one full disk to the new drive.
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@dyasny said in Email server options:
@Pete-S said in Email server options:
Always go with 3.5" storage when you need some volume but not SSD speed.
Ultrastar 12TB 7.2K SAS-3 drives are about $400 each. 12TB RAID-1 becomes about $800 for 12TB storage. That's 6.7 cents per GB of data.How long will it take for a raid array to rebuild on a 12Tb disk?
If RAID 1, it's a strait copy. If other RAID levels, the answer is really complex.
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@scottalanmiller said in Email server options:
@dyasny said in Email server options:
@Pete-S said in Email server options:
Always go with 3.5" storage when you need some volume but not SSD speed.
Ultrastar 12TB 7.2K SAS-3 drives are about $400 each. 12TB RAID-1 becomes about $800 for 12TB storage. That's 6.7 cents per GB of data.How long will it take for a raid array to rebuild on a 12Tb disk?
If RAID 1, it's a strait copy. If other RAID levels, the answer is really complex.
Exactly, in other words, you didn't provide enough information to answer your question.
It will also depend if the system is in use while the rebuild is happening - and how much that activity is hitting the disk.
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@travisdh1 @scottalanmiller my point here is, huge drives sounds great on paper, in terms of $ per Gb, but whenever possible, I will always take a lot of smaller spindles over a few huge ones. When dealing with spindles that is, SSDs and NVMes are a whole different story of course.
Imagine you're building a large data store with huge disks, because it feels like you're getting more for less that way. And assuming your disk in a RAID5 takes X hours to rebuild. During that X, you're as vulnerable as if you were running raid0, more vulnerable, because you have multiple disks from the same production series, with the same age and wear on them, so chances are high more will die simultaneously. The larger the disks, the higher the X, and 12Tb will have you counting X in days, not hours, at least in a parity based RAID.
You can always go for other RAID levels, with higher redundancy rates, but that also has downsides, both in price and performance. In short, YMMV, but I always advise to take factors beside the price per Gb into consideration, it's a huge factor people tend to skip entirely.
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@dyasny Are we on the why RAID 5 is bad with massive capacity storage disks again?
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The simple answer is, a risk assessment should be performed, but generally speaking spindles are a never use RAID5 case. RAID6 or 10.
SSD RAID5 is okay.
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@dyasny said in Email server options:
es are high more will die simultaneously. The larger the disks, the higher the X, and 12Tb will have you counting X in days, not
yup - the math shows that at 12 TB, you have a near 100% chance of a second drive failing during a RAID 5 resilver.
RAID 6 or 10, and depending on the size, might even have to go to RAID 7 instead of 10.
This makes looking at SSDs and RAID 5 very attractive.
