Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0
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@dustinb3403 said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
Ah so you actually have two disks with 4TB each and went with the "I need more space" RAID0.
The fix here is bigger disks and RAID1 in that case, it's going to be slow (being 5400 RPM) but at least you have the protection you were looking for.
Granted this is backup only.
I'm guessing he didn't buy the drives, but already had them.
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@scottalanmiller That doesn't matter in terms of the discussion. If backup space is a priority and you can't make it work with the equipment you have you need to purchase more space.
RAID0 is a non-production setup in most cases like was discussed above. For backups, yeah okay maybe you can skate by. But why risk it if this is the only backup's you might have?
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@scottalanmiller said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
@dustinb3403 said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
Ah so you actually have two disks with 4TB each and went with the "I need more space" RAID0.
The fix here is bigger disks and RAID1 in that case, it's going to be slow (being 5400 RPM) but at least you have the protection you were looking for.
Granted this is backup only.
I'm guessing he didn't buy the drives, but already had them.
I did buy them new, but the Synology case itself was expensive too. WD REDs at 4TB * 2 just hit the budget. The whole thing was like $800+.
I can get buy with RAID1 and 4TB drives for a while. As a backup, I might not get 5 full backup sets or whatever but it will do with some incrementals.
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how critical are those backups? If you needed them and lost them, do you lose more than $800?
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@guyinpv said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
@scottalanmiller said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
@dustinb3403 said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
Ah so you actually have two disks with 4TB each and went with the "I need more space" RAID0.
The fix here is bigger disks and RAID1 in that case, it's going to be slow (being 5400 RPM) but at least you have the protection you were looking for.
Granted this is backup only.
I'm guessing he didn't buy the drives, but already had them.
I did buy them new, but the Synology case itself was expensive too. WD REDs at 4TB * 2 just hit the budget. The whole thing was like $800+.
I can get buy with RAID1 and 4TB drives for a while. As a backup, I might not get 5 full backup sets or whatever but it will do with some incrementals.
One full on RAID 1 is better than a hundred on RAID 0.
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the cost of 2x4tb is basically the same as a single 8tb if we are talking WD red's. One drive at 8TB would be safer than 2x4tb in raid 0. You could always add the second drive and make it raid 1 later.
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Do you have a backup or do you need the data?
I do data recovery.
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Yeah the drives are ~$125 vs ~$260. I'd go with less backups and RAID1 over RAID0.
I have to ask why is there an $800 limit on this system if you know how many backups you need? Especially if you're forced to use RAID0 to meet the requirement of "5 full backup sets". That would seem to say "I need this much protection, what do I need to spend to get that protection in a reasonable way?"
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@dustinb3403 said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
I have to ask why is there an $800 limit on this system if you know how many backups you need?
In theory, this budget is either based off of the perceived value of the data and/or it defines their value of their data.
The "rule of thumb" for figuring this out is that you would spend around a quarter of the data value at max for protection. So if this was the sole protection, they'd see their data (that is specifically affected by this device) as having a value of no more than $3,200. Which is reasonable, it might be rather unimportant data that's just nice to not have to recreate.
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@scottalanmiller In that scenario then you'd still have to meet the following point I mentioned just above.
What do I need to spend to protect me from a $3,200 loss? It's clearly more than the money that was spent already, I'd say by about $300.
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@donahue said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
how critical are those backups? If you needed them and lost them, do you lose more than $800?
Not that critical, at least not now. Once I start internally hosting some important data records and DBs and other LAN stuff, it will be.
@donahue said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
the cost of 2x4tb is basically the same as a single 8tb if we are talking WD red's. One drive at 8TB would be safer than 2x4tb in raid 0. You could always add the second drive and make it raid 1 later.
A year ago or more the prices were higher, not even sure there were 8TB drives at all? I think the 2TB drives were around $200 each, and the Synolgy about $400, so it was $800+ fully configured.
@ccwtech said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
Do you have a backup or do you need the data?
I do data recovery.
Thanks man, but oddly, just turning the Synology off and on again brought the stripe back to life and worked just fine until next sector was discovered bad.
@scottalanmiller said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
@dustinb3403 said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
I have to ask why is there an $800 limit on this system if you know how many backups you need?
In theory, this budget is either based off of the perceived value of the data and/or it defines their value of their data.
The "rule of thumb" for figuring this out is that you would spend around a quarter of the data value at max for protection. So if this was the sole protection, they'd see their data (that is specifically affected by this device) as having a value of no more than $3,200. Which is reasonable, it might be rather unimportant data that's just nice to not have to recreate.
I don't know how to put a price on data. I mean, let's say we lost our pile of vendor invoices. Well maybe there are 150 of these files. So if those were lost, we'd have to spend employee time tracking down all our outstanding orders, recreate the files, then track down all our own customer orders waiting on those products. So I don't know, that's maybe 4 people working for 3 days or so to figure that out. So let's say around $2000 of labor time. Plus if they are doing this work, then they aren't doing other sorts of work that may or may not translate to revenue, so maybe add $1000 for lost revenue perhaps?
This is all very speculative. Some data maybe can't be recovered at all, perhaps old reports or records.
Anyway, I didn't say $800 was the budget limit, I'm just saying that's what I spent at the time. My original plan was to push ALL my workstation backups to the NAS, which would have surpassed a RAID1 4TB mirror. Hence the stripe originally. Plus acting as backup for the server which wasn't holding anything important, I was just going to store some snapshots of the VMs.
All that to say, I never ended up putting workstation backups on it, and it became more of a general purpose network sharing NAS, and so I'm only using about 1.2TB.
You can imagine, since the NAS become general purpose, it wasn't classified as a backup device any more, but a primary device! So now it needed backed up as well. I bought a 4TB USB drive and that's when I tried to backup the NAS to the USB and it started failing and all this went down.
Here is the odd part, ONLY when the Hyper Backup tool does a backup does it start finding bad sectors. But if I use a tool like Robocopy and just copy all the files manually, no failures. What gives?
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@guyinpv said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
A year ago or more the prices were higher, not even sure there were 8TB drives at all? I think the 2TB drives were around $200 each, and the Synolgy about $400, so it was $800+ fully configured.
8TB released in 2014, 10TB in 2015, and 12TB in 2017. 14TB should be out with limited availability now.
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@guyinpv said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
I don't know how to put a price on data.
As the IT guy, it is for you to give a cost to recovery, it's up to the business to tell you how much the data is worth. They set the budget, so they had already determined the value.
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@scottalanmiller said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
@guyinpv said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
I don't know how to put a price on data.
As the IT guy, it is for you to give a cost to recovery, it's up to the business to tell you how much the data is worth. They set the budget, so they had already determined the value.
I appreciate the advice of enterprise IT thinking but that's just not how I've seen it in small business. The only thing small biz owners ever do is haggle about price. Waaaa no way I'm "renting" MS Office. Waaaa no way I'm "renting" Adobe CS. Waaaa no way I want to pay a monthly fee for EVERY employee!! Waaaa what do you mean we need central management of XY service? Waaa I don't want to pay for hosting!
I provide pros and cons, options, and prices, and lay out the risks. They make the decisions. I'm not the one who demands we "share" O365 accounts, that was their brilliant plan to avoid $30 more a month. I'm quite tired of it really.
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@guyinpv said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
I appreciate the advice of enterprise IT thinking but that's just not how I've seen it in small business.
Well, there are really only two choices...
The business takes the time to DETERMINE this. Or...
No one knows.
IT doesn't have the slightest power to determine the value, it's just not reasonably possible. You aren't the CFO, owner, or even the accountant.
So even in the smallest SMB, it's always the way that I said. They might see their data is "too worthless to bother figuring out", and that is very common. But one way or another, the business side is the only possible determiner of the value.
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@guyinpv said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
I provide pros and cons, options, and prices, and lay out the risks. They make the decisions.
Exactly, and their responses are how they tell you how much they see the data as being worth.
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@scottalanmiller said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
@guyinpv said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
I provide pros and cons, options, and prices, and lay out the risks. They make the decisions.
Exactly, and their responses are how they tell you how much they see the data as being worth.
It's a catch 22 though. If they decide they want to take some risk, and then bad things happen, they don't own up to it, they just attack me like "why didn't you prepare for that!"
Either way, I end up the bad guy.
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@guyinpv said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
that's just not how I've seen it in small business
I came from small business and the reason you haven't seen it that way is because small business' reasoning is terrible 99% of the time
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@guyinpv said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
@scottalanmiller said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
@guyinpv said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
I provide pros and cons, options, and prices, and lay out the risks. They make the decisions.
Exactly, and their responses are how they tell you how much they see the data as being worth.
It's a catch 22 though. If they decide they want to take some risk, and then bad things happen, they don't own up to it, they just attack me like "why didn't you prepare for that!"
Either way, I end up the bad guy.
Everything in writing. Literally. Also get out of there. They aren't paying you enough obviously.
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@coliver said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
@guyinpv said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
@scottalanmiller said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
@guyinpv said in Synology one bad sector crashes whole volume RAID0:
I provide pros and cons, options, and prices, and lay out the risks. They make the decisions.
Exactly, and their responses are how they tell you how much they see the data as being worth.
It's a catch 22 though. If they decide they want to take some risk, and then bad things happen, they don't own up to it, they just attack me like "why didn't you prepare for that!"
Either way, I end up the bad guy.
Everything in writing. Literally. Also get out of there. They aren't paying you enough obviously.
This. I've been there multiple times and I leave every time
