Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving
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@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@dafyre said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
I am at the point in my career where I want to be, I think. I'm actively doing the work in the trenches. The only step up for me is management, which is the type of role I actively want to avoid. It may still happen, but I don't see that any time in the immediate future.
It's pretty sad that people with tech skills only see their next step as moving to management. There is nothing wrong with doing what you do really well. I have seen companies where someone is great at their job so the company promotes them to management - which requires different skills - and the person fails. (The Peter principle)
Is it sad if the person wants that experience? I'd see it as an opportunity personally.
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@DustinB3403 said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@dafyre said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
I am at the point in my career where I want to be, I think. I'm actively doing the work in the trenches. The only step up for me is management, which is the type of role I actively want to avoid. It may still happen, but I don't see that any time in the immediate future.
It's pretty sad that people with tech skills only see their next step as moving to management. There is nothing wrong with doing what you do really well. I have seen companies where someone is great at their job so the company promotes them to management - which requires different skills - and the person fails. (The Peter principle)
Is it sad if the person wants that experience? I'd see it as an opportunity personally.
I'm sure he was talking about @dafyre
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@Dashrender said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
Is it sad if the person wants that experience? I'd see it as an opportunity personally.
I'm sure he was talking about @dafyre
yes.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to get in to management or anything else. You should always be asking "Where do I want to be 3 years from now and what do I need to do today to get there?"
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@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@dafyre said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
I am at the point in my career where I want to be, I think. I'm actively doing the work in the trenches. The only step up for me is management, which is the type of role I actively want to avoid. It may still happen, but I don't see that any time in the immediate future.
It's pretty sad that people with tech skills only see their next step as moving to management. There is nothing wrong with doing what you do really well. I have seen companies where someone is great at their job so the company promotes them to management - which requires different skills - and the person fails. (The Peter principle)
It's worse when the company sees that as the only option.
Really those companies probably need a few different tech levels to handle this. If they really need a title change to pay them more money, then make current title level 2, level 3, etc.Of course there is a maximum amount of money that a position is worth to a company, and if you feel that your have more value than that, you must find other opportunities.
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@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
It's pretty sad that people with tech skills only see their next step as moving to management.
I see the only step UP as management. Anything else that keeps me in the trenches, in my mind, is a lateral move.
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@dafyre said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
It's pretty sad that people with tech skills only see their next step as moving to management.
I see the only step UP as management. Anything else that keeps me in the trenches, in my mind, is a lateral move.
Is there something wrong with lateral moves, especially if the pay more?
Also, would not an engineering role be a promotion vs now?
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@Dashrender said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@dafyre said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
It's pretty sad that people with tech skills only see their next step as moving to management.
I see the only step UP as management. Anything else that keeps me in the trenches, in my mind, is a lateral move.
Is there something wrong with lateral moves, especially if the pay more?
Also, would not an engineering role be a promotion vs now?
I think management is a completely different skill set and I would consider it the start of a new career more than a promotion
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@Dashrender said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@dafyre said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
It's pretty sad that people with tech skills only see their next step as moving to management.
I see the only step UP as management. Anything else that keeps me in the trenches, in my mind, is a lateral move.
Is there something wrong with lateral moves, especially if the pay more?
Also, would not an engineering role be a promotion vs now?
Nothing wrong with it at all. Whatever floats your canoe! That's how I got the job I have now, lol.
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@wirestyle22 said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Dashrender said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@dafyre said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
It's pretty sad that people with tech skills only see their next step as moving to management.
I see the only step UP as management. Anything else that keeps me in the trenches, in my mind, is a lateral move.
Is there something wrong with lateral moves, especially if the pay more?
Also, would not an engineering role be a promotion vs now?
I think management is a completely different skill set and I would consider it the start of a new career more than a promotion
I think people in this community has very different employers: we have no management role. I simply do it all: strategy proposals (ok let call them stratigies....), HW picking and sizing, setup, debug, customer care, sweeping.
this has been so in every place I've worked in. do not expect any change in this. rather the contents of the work let me think about a promotion.
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@matteo-nunziati said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@wirestyle22 said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Dashrender said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@dafyre said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
It's pretty sad that people with tech skills only see their next step as moving to management.
I see the only step UP as management. Anything else that keeps me in the trenches, in my mind, is a lateral move.
Is there something wrong with lateral moves, especially if the pay more?
Also, would not an engineering role be a promotion vs now?
I think management is a completely different skill set and I would consider it the start of a new career more than a promotion
I think people in this community has very different employers: we have no management role. I simply do it all: strategy proposals (ok let call them stratigies....), HW picking and sizing, setup, debug, customer care, sweeping.
this has been so in every place I've worked in. do not expect any change in this. rather the contents of the work let me think about a promotion.
I think are system of values are also very different. For instance, how do you all define success? I bet our answers would vary wildly
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I would say success is:
Pay that allows me to do the leisure activities I want while saving for retirement
Flexible work schedule
In a company that values my position -
@matteo-nunziati said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@EddieJennings said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
If the employee has zero desire to continue their employment at the company, would it not be a waste of everyone's time for the employee renegotiate the position? This is assuming there is no offering that would rekindle said desire.
If you truly believe that there aren't enough monies and benefits in the universe to convince you otherwise, no don't waste the time. But that's never really the situation. This is a job that you were okay with at a current salary today, but a change to that job tomorrow would make no salary good enough? While theoretically possible, it's not realistically plausible. This may happen once or twice in the whole of human history.
add one: I'm going to leave next year after a renegotiation last year. and for sure no one will pay me more. also, it is not sure I will quict with a new job agreement already in place.
anyway the main reason I've stayed another year here was not more money (even if they offer me and I accepted) but more time flexibility. I think that if money is "enough" better time is always the thing to attain.
That's why I was careful to add benefits, I agree. I've taken a 90% cut in pay over my last corporate offer to have a lot more time with the family and freedom to do what I enjoy.
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@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
This is a gig that has a change of responsibility. Mostly likely, a promotion.
So the real reason for leaving isn't money, it's the desire for a promotion.
No, in this example the promotion was given. The reason for leaving is because the promotion is too much work without enough compensation under the current regime.
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@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@matteo-nunziati said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@EddieJennings said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
If the employee has zero desire to continue their employment at the company, would it not be a waste of everyone's time for the employee renegotiate the position? This is assuming there is no offering that would rekindle said desire.
If you truly believe that there aren't enough monies and benefits in the universe to convince you otherwise, no don't waste the time. But that's never really the situation. This is a job that you were okay with at a current salary today, but a change to that job tomorrow would make no salary good enough? While theoretically possible, it's not realistically plausible. This may happen once or twice in the whole of human history.
add one: I'm going to leave next year after a renegotiation last year. and for sure no one will pay me more. also, it is not sure I will quict with a new job agreement already in place.
anyway the main reason I've stayed another year here was not more money (even if they offer me and I accepted) but more time flexibility. I think that if money is "enough" better time is always the thing to attain.
That's why I was careful to add benefits, I agree. I've taken a 90% cut in pay over my last corporate offer to have a lot more time with the family and freedom to do what I enjoy.
Not everyone has the luxury of making that choice though. You have a very unique situation
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@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
What it sounds more like is asking for a promotion and being prepared to leave if you don't get it. Money doesn't come in to play.
This specific situation is the opposite. Promotion did come into play (in the example that triggered this) and money did not follow.
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@Dashrender said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
This is a gig that has a change of responsibility. Mostly likely, a promotion.
So the real reason for leaving isn't money, it's the desire for a promotion. Sometimes there are opportunities for promotion within the walls of the company where you are, and sometimes there are not. When I read your first post, I understood that there was an opportunity outside the walls, and things inside the walls were going down hill. Asking for more money to stay sounded like a bad idea.
What it sounds more like is asking for a promotion and being prepared to leave if you don't get it. Money doesn't come in to play.
Yeah but that promotion will like drive a noticeable pay raise.
But it did not give any in the example case. This was prompted by a real world situation where the new job came with no change in compensation. But would also apply where the increase was deemed worth it.
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@DustinB3403 said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Dashrender said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
This is a gig that has a change of responsibility. Mostly likely, a promotion.
So the real reason for leaving isn't money, it's the desire for a promotion. Sometimes there are opportunities for promotion within the walls of the company where you are, and sometimes there are not. When I read your first post, I understood that there was an opportunity outside the walls, and things inside the walls were going down hill. Asking for more money to stay sounded like a bad idea.
What it sounds more like is asking for a promotion and being prepared to leave if you don't get it. Money doesn't come in to play.
Yeah but that promotion will like drive a noticeable pay raise.
The reason for leaving sounds as though the person is at a dead end job, with no opportunities to grow. The pay is negligible as its sounds like this person simply wants to advance (career wise).
Nope, not dead end, exactly the opposite.
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@dafyre said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@DustinB3403 said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Dashrender said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@Mike-Davis said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
@scottalanmiller said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
This is a gig that has a change of responsibility. Mostly likely, a promotion.
So the real reason for leaving isn't money, it's the desire for a promotion. Sometimes there are opportunities for promotion within the walls of the company where you are, and sometimes there are not. When I read your first post, I understood that there was an opportunity outside the walls, and things inside the walls were going down hill. Asking for more money to stay sounded like a bad idea.
What it sounds more like is asking for a promotion and being prepared to leave if you don't get it. Money doesn't come in to play.
Yeah but that promotion will like drive a noticeable pay raise.
The reason for leaving sounds as though the person is at a dead end job, with no opportunities to grow. The pay is negligible as its sounds like this person simply wants to advance (career wise).
I left my old job for the same reasons, it was a dead end. Not until I said I was leaving did management even attempt to offer me anything at all. Which they offered a promotion, and that team members would report to me.
But it was to little to late. A valued employee should be spoken with (maybe during annual reviews) about where they want to see their career go, before the feeling of a dead-end job sets in.
I am at the point in my career where I want to be, I think. I'm actively doing the work in the trenches. The only step up for me is management, which is the type of role I actively want to avoid. It may still happen, but I don't see that any time in the immediate future.
Only step up... where you are? Management is not an step UP from the trenches, it is a step to the side. Management is not above technical work, it is simply a different (and easier) role.
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@DustinB3403 said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
If the place your at now, knows you are looking to leave / have received another offer and they counter with something just to keep you there, the job is a dead-end.
Which is specifically why this isn't that scenario. I was careful to make sure nothing implied another offer, nothing to do with being a counter. A counter is a totally different scenario.
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@DustinB3403 said in Negotiating for a Job You Are Leaving:
Putting a business feet to the fire isn't a good position to be in, especially if you feel the way I did about my last position. It'll likely come back to bite you.
There are no feet to the fire, unless you consider ALL salary negotiations to be this. When you take a new job and say "I need X to take this job", we don't consider that putting someone's feet to the fire. Any more than them telling you what your job will be is to you.
