Don't Stay in School
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@Minion-Queen said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
Probably a mix. Few 8th graders are anywhere nearly prepared to talk politics. Things like geography and history are necessary for even basic functional citizenship (unless we remove democracy, then we don't have to educate every individual to all of these things - democracy comes at an incredible price.) Math needs to at least go to algebra. Science we go way, way too far. Computing we rarely even bother to introduce in any meaningful way. English lit... way too far.
I definitely understand where you are coming from - and I'll fully admit to my general lack of knowledge in history - but would dropping the general requirements for history really change much in the world we live in today?
History gives us good examples of things that have been tried and worked, or things that have tried and failed... In technology, government, business...
of course - but do these lessons get learned by the masses today? At bare minimum, finding a way to improve delivery and retention of this knowledge is required.
If this were before the time of Google and online encyclopedias, I would agree with you. I think now, though, that teaching someone HOW to find that wealth of knowledge rather than making them retain it is better in some regards. Not that they should never be taught the history. But in the teaching, show them how to search for and learn from history.
According to my son this was one of the best things I taught him how to do: research on google.
This was probably the only successful thing my 12th grade English Lit teacher really did. He enforced critical research and tried to introduce value beyond what was beyond what the state required. It was eye opening to see how many of my peers simply didn't understand how to verify sources.
Although this was the same teacher who associated literally everything in classical literature with sex and more precisely phallic imagery.
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@Minion-Queen said in Don't Stay in School:
In NYS they have to take some standardized testing but it's still dumb. You can literally (if your kid has a good memory) teach them everything for grades say 3-6 in one year. And then stop teaching. Obviously as a kid matures their outlook on Literature and the ability to write a better book report grows but really all the skills they need can be taught in one year. But what does writing a book report have to do with learning anything?
What does writing a book report teach? ummm.. well, writing skills? Practice with grammer, getting corrected and trying again to make sure you get it right? Am I missing something here? It also teach one how to pass along information they obtained from a source, and helps the teacher ensure that that student did in fact understand the material.
When you look at what they teach in most schools actual grammar isn't taught for more than a few weeks. Which should be taught more.
man, it's been 30 years since elementary school for me, but I could have sworn we did grammar lessons for years. But I wonder how necessary that even was? Don't get me wrong, I definitely don't want to be a tweet suckin' millennial today - but we don't need collage level grammar for everyone either.
Practical Math skills (pointing out why they need to learn things not just expect them to spew out memorized stuff), need to be taught.
Practical math skills - Adding/subtracting/multiplying/dividing I suppose tossing in the ability to have a single variable in an equation built only from those four operators would be good, and add in area and volume and you probably have the basics covered for most people's need for life.
I have conversations with my son's friends who went to regular school. They have NO life skills at all, hope they figure them out in college (oh wait they are going to drink and party).
What life skills are you talking about? How to work queries on Google to find answer? How to balance a checkbook? A skill that is clearly missing from middle ages folks is how to actually use the internet, but I don't think most kids suffer this problem.
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@coliver said in Don't Stay in School:
@Minion-Queen said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
Probably a mix. Few 8th graders are anywhere nearly prepared to talk politics. Things like geography and history are necessary for even basic functional citizenship (unless we remove democracy, then we don't have to educate every individual to all of these things - democracy comes at an incredible price.) Math needs to at least go to algebra. Science we go way, way too far. Computing we rarely even bother to introduce in any meaningful way. English lit... way too far.
I definitely understand where you are coming from - and I'll fully admit to my general lack of knowledge in history - but would dropping the general requirements for history really change much in the world we live in today?
History gives us good examples of things that have been tried and worked, or things that have tried and failed... In technology, government, business...
of course - but do these lessons get learned by the masses today? At bare minimum, finding a way to improve delivery and retention of this knowledge is required.
If this were before the time of Google and online encyclopedias, I would agree with you. I think now, though, that teaching someone HOW to find that wealth of knowledge rather than making them retain it is better in some regards. Not that they should never be taught the history. But in the teaching, show them how to search for and learn from history.
According to my son this was one of the best things I taught him how to do: research on google.
One of my Grad professors told the class that 90% of a systems admin job was researching stuff via Google. If you couldn't research then you weren't cut out to work in IT.
This is true for IT, and well... pretty much any knowledge based field (Science, Think Tank, Law, etc)....
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@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
What life skills are you talking about? How to work queries on Google to find answer? How to balance a checkbook? A skill that is clearly missing from middle ages folks is how to actually use the internet, but I don't think most kids suffer this problem.
My peers, the ones that I graduated high school with and then went on to work with in IT (several of them were sales and accounting people at my last position) couldn't use Google or the internet for anything but checking sports scores and finding customers. None of them could use Google to troubleshoot even the most basic computer problems. Granted that's why I was hired but still, how to use Microsoft Word should be a reasonable thing to expect from a 25-30 year old.
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@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@coliver said in Don't Stay in School:
@Minion-Queen said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
Probably a mix. Few 8th graders are anywhere nearly prepared to talk politics. Things like geography and history are necessary for even basic functional citizenship (unless we remove democracy, then we don't have to educate every individual to all of these things - democracy comes at an incredible price.) Math needs to at least go to algebra. Science we go way, way too far. Computing we rarely even bother to introduce in any meaningful way. English lit... way too far.
I definitely understand where you are coming from - and I'll fully admit to my general lack of knowledge in history - but would dropping the general requirements for history really change much in the world we live in today?
History gives us good examples of things that have been tried and worked, or things that have tried and failed... In technology, government, business...
of course - but do these lessons get learned by the masses today? At bare minimum, finding a way to improve delivery and retention of this knowledge is required.
If this were before the time of Google and online encyclopedias, I would agree with you. I think now, though, that teaching someone HOW to find that wealth of knowledge rather than making them retain it is better in some regards. Not that they should never be taught the history. But in the teaching, show them how to search for and learn from history.
According to my son this was one of the best things I taught him how to do: research on google.
One of my Grad professors told the class that 90% of a systems admin job was researching stuff via Google. If you couldn't research then you weren't cut out to work in IT.
This is true for IT, and well... pretty much any knowledge based field (Science, Think Tank, Law, etc)....
Having worked with Engineers in the past that is also 90% of their job. They used to have spec books to do the research but now most things can be found on the internet. Successful engineers are able to research reliably unsuccessful ones never seem to be able to ask the right questions.
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Learning how to research is probably a life skill most people should have - one that is rarely taught and when taught is poorly taught. I still consider myself a noob at it.
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@coliver said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
What life skills are you talking about? How to work queries on Google to find answer? How to balance a checkbook? A skill that is clearly missing from middle ages folks is how to actually use the internet, but I don't think most kids suffer this problem.
My peers, the ones that I graduated high school with and then went on to work with in IT (several of them were sales and accounting people at my last position) couldn't use Google or the internet for anything but checking sports scores and finding customers. None of them could use Google to troubleshoot even the most basic computer problems. Granted that's why I was hired but still, how to use Microsoft Word should be a reasonable thing to expect from a 25-30 year old.
Being able to troubleshoot even the most basic, non-technical issue should be expected from everyone. I completely understand that a single person can't know everything, like how to run plumbing in a house, or how to wire in a light switch. But everyone should be able to understand a solution to the problem. Even if they don't implement it, they should know what is "done correctly" and half-assed.
But if you can't figure out that the pop ups on your computer are malware, adware, or viruses with anything more than 10 seconds of thought, maybe you shouldn't own a computer.
Troubleshooting these issues doesn't require much either. Google the symptoms and find a resolution.
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@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
Learning how to research is probably a life skill most people should have - one that is rarely taught and when taught is poorly taught. I still consider myself a noob at it.
I think my google-magic has proven this a few times.
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Grammar: Isn't taught for more than a few weeks now. But they still expect them to write well. Teaching them to write well is more than expecting them to regurgitate a book they read this week and wont remember next. Because they now have to read a new book and write a new book report. Writing is a great skill but only if it is actually taught. I know NYS is worst than most states on all of this.
Practical life skills: Balancing a check book, first aid, running a house (paying bills, cooking, etc). Teach them to really research online.
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@Minion-Queen said in Don't Stay in School:
Practical life skills: Balancing a check book, first aid, running a house (paying bills, cooking, etc). Teach them to really research online.
Nice list - I was thinking of the cooking thing - If memory servs (and it doesn't always) Scott mentioned that home ec was on his waste of time list. I never took home ec - it was definitely considered a class for girls - but this class actually sounds like what really needs to be taught, to everyone. It should include the things you mentioned - balancing a check book, first aid, running a house (Love this one! - and yard care should be brought into this, and house/apt maintenance), and car maintenance too. Everyone should be able to do basic troubleshooting of car issues.
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@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@Minion-Queen said in Don't Stay in School:
Practical life skills: Balancing a check book, first aid, running a house (paying bills, cooking, etc). Teach them to really research online.
Nice list - I was thinking of the cooking thing - If memory servs (and it doesn't always) Scott mentioned that home ec was on his waste of time list. I never took home ec - it was definitely considered a class for girls - but this class actually sounds like what really needs to be taught, to everyone. It should include the things you mentioned - balancing a check book, first aid, running a house (Love this one! - and yard care should be brought into this, and house/apt maintenance), and car maintenance too. Everyone should be able to do basic troubleshooting of car issues.
EXACTLY!!! Not knowing how to cook = horrible health cause you eat pre-packed meals or eat out. Not knowing how to run a house = you are a terrible home owner and even if you have to hire someone any idiot can take advantage of you cause they can tell you all your plumbing all has to be replaced because you have a leaky faucet (yes I actually know someone this dumb). Basic skills in being an adult.
Also how to be a parent is a good skill. Human decency skills need to be taught.
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@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@Minion-Queen said in Don't Stay in School:
Practical life skills: Balancing a check book, first aid, running a house (paying bills, cooking, etc). Teach them to really research online.
Nice list - I was thinking of the cooking thing - If memory servs (and it doesn't always) Scott mentioned that home ec was on his waste of time list. I never took home ec - it was definitely considered a class for girls - but this class actually sounds like what really needs to be taught, to everyone. It should include the things you mentioned - balancing a check book, first aid, running a house (Love this one! - and yard care should be brought into this, and house/apt maintenance), and car maintenance too. Everyone should be able to do basic troubleshooting of car issues.
In NY home economics doesn't do what the name suggests. At least not any more, to the anger of my home economics teacher. When she started out it was more of a life skills class. How to plan meals, balance a check book, clean (a huge skill that is really never taught you just kind of pick it up), do basic clothes patching, etc.
When I was in school, the year she retired, it was a sew this animal with a stitch that doesn't make sense for clothes and here is how to cook stuff. We never really got into meal planning or the actual economics of a house.
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I actually wound up in Home Ec. It actually was a great class. We did cooking, and etiquette for when eating at the fancy diners (which helps if you want to get jobs in that field), and we held group discussions in a "formal" home dinner type situation. It was surprisingly a lot of fun. There were more than just one or two guys in there. A lot of the class felt like busy work because there's only so many ways you can burn a biscuit.
It was at that point I actually took an interest in cooking. I enjoy trying new things, as does my wife. It's been fun, for the most part... except when we make Ewwwww meals, lol. Looking back, that's one of the things I would do again.
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@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
The one thing that the author leaves out, probably because he's 22 and never really thought about it, is that the school system is actually mostly a babysitting system and cover for the welfare programs.
Did you only skim the videos? This was specifically mentioned.
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@art_of_shred said in Don't Stay in School:
You certainly can't put much stock in a lot of what kids say, as it's mostly driven by immature emotion and selfishness, but pretty much any school-age child has asked "Why do I need to learn this? How is this going to be applicable to my life in any way as an adult?" If it's obvious enough for nearly all children to have picked up on, then there is an agenda driving it. Call it a conspiracy, or whatever. The organized education system, at least in the West, is a sham.
Even moreso than "kids recognize it" the really telling thing is that teachers can't explain why they have to teach it.
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@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
Interesting. Though what's wrong with public baby sitting service? Why not really do it right and go that way fully invest in that program - hell, I've always wondered why high school was more of a vocational school situation.
Because, I think that you will find, that vocational training is more costly to provide and harder to teach than what is broadly taught. Why pay for a skilled welder to teach a class that requires expensive gear and heavy insurance when you could make those kids sit in an extra English class with an otherwise unemployable teacher for half the price teaching from textbooks that never change and have no extra insurance or space needs?
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@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
Probably a mix. Few 8th graders are anywhere nearly prepared to talk politics. Things like geography and history are necessary for even basic functional citizenship (unless we remove democracy, then we don't have to educate every individual to all of these things - democracy comes at an incredible price.) Math needs to at least go to algebra. Science we go way, way too far. Computing we rarely even bother to introduce in any meaningful way. English lit... way too far.
I definitely understand where you are coming from - and I'll fully admit to my general lack of knowledge in history - but would dropping the general requirements for history really change much in the world we live in today?
Well, there is actually an issue that history is often mistaught in school so one could argue that it is not being taught at all today normally and that teaching it might have a ton of value. (See: "Lies My Teacher Told Me")
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@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
Probably a mix. Few 8th graders are anywhere nearly prepared to talk politics. Things like geography and history are necessary for even basic functional citizenship (unless we remove democracy, then we don't have to educate every individual to all of these things - democracy comes at an incredible price.) Math needs to at least go to algebra. Science we go way, way too far. Computing we rarely even bother to introduce in any meaningful way. English lit... way too far.
I definitely understand where you are coming from - and I'll fully admit to my general lack of knowledge in history - but would dropping the general requirements for history really change much in the world we live in today?
History gives us good examples of things that have been tried and worked, or things that have tried and failed... In technology, government, business...
And keeps us from being easily fooled by the media. Without a solid grasp of history, how does one put the world into a meaningful context? If the populace doesn't understand history, the populace cannot govern itself You can "let them" do so, but they lack the capability.
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@coliver said in Don't Stay in School:
@Minion-Queen said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
Probably a mix. Few 8th graders are anywhere nearly prepared to talk politics. Things like geography and history are necessary for even basic functional citizenship (unless we remove democracy, then we don't have to educate every individual to all of these things - democracy comes at an incredible price.) Math needs to at least go to algebra. Science we go way, way too far. Computing we rarely even bother to introduce in any meaningful way. English lit... way too far.
I definitely understand where you are coming from - and I'll fully admit to my general lack of knowledge in history - but would dropping the general requirements for history really change much in the world we live in today?
History gives us good examples of things that have been tried and worked, or things that have tried and failed... In technology, government, business...
of course - but do these lessons get learned by the masses today? At bare minimum, finding a way to improve delivery and retention of this knowledge is required.
If this were before the time of Google and online encyclopedias, I would agree with you. I think now, though, that teaching someone HOW to find that wealth of knowledge rather than making them retain it is better in some regards. Not that they should never be taught the history. But in the teaching, show them how to search for and learn from history.
According to my son this was one of the best things I taught him how to do: research on google.
One of my Grad professors told the class that 90% of a systems admin job was researching stuff via Google. If you couldn't research then you weren't cut out to work in IT.
Yeah, I don't believe that. I'd believe that 90% of people using that title don't know their jobs and research things on Google trying to make up for it. But as someone who has worked in systems administration a lot, you can't Google this stuff or you end up with the "Spiceworks Effect"... tons of people who don't understand the foundational knowledge and therefore can't figure out what to Google or can't interpret the Google answers. Google is a big part, sure. But 90%, hardly. 10%, maybe.
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@Minion-Queen said in Don't Stay in School:
There is a reason that homeschooling is growing fast in the US. If you homeschool yes you have "required crap to teach" but if you are smart you hand your kid the book and say read it fast.
That's a state by state thing. Not a federal requirement. Texas gives us zero crap to teach.
