Don't Stay in School
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@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
Learning for learning sake is great, as long as you enjoy learning - but just because it's good, should that be a reason to force it upon people?
You absolutely cannot force someone to learn if they do not want to learn. Sure if you drill enough facts into their head they'll be able to regurgitate them on demand... but is that really learning, or is it rote memorization?
If you allow them to explore the world on their own and let them find something they want to learn, they will excel in that far better than anything else that someone is trying to force them to learn.
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Interesting. Though what's wrong with public baby sitting service? Why not really do it right and go that way fully invest in that program - hell, I've always wondered why high school was more of a vocational school situation.
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@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
Probably a mix. Few 8th graders are anywhere nearly prepared to talk politics. Things like geography and history are necessary for even basic functional citizenship (unless we remove democracy, then we don't have to educate every individual to all of these things - democracy comes at an incredible price.) Math needs to at least go to algebra. Science we go way, way too far. Computing we rarely even bother to introduce in any meaningful way. English lit... way too far.
I definitely understand where you are coming from - and I'll fully admit to my general lack of knowledge in history - but would dropping the general requirements for history really change much in the world we live in today?
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@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
Probably a mix. Few 8th graders are anywhere nearly prepared to talk politics. Things like geography and history are necessary for even basic functional citizenship (unless we remove democracy, then we don't have to educate every individual to all of these things - democracy comes at an incredible price.) Math needs to at least go to algebra. Science we go way, way too far. Computing we rarely even bother to introduce in any meaningful way. English lit... way too far.
I definitely understand where you are coming from - and I'll fully admit to my general lack of knowledge in history - but would dropping the general requirements for history really change much in the world we live in today?
History gives us good examples of things that have been tried and worked, or things that have tried and failed... In technology, government, business...
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There is a reason that homeschooling is growing fast in the US. If you homeschool yes you have "required crap to teach" but if you are smart you hand your kid the book and say read it fast.
Required for NYS:
Elementary school required hours 6,480/ school year.
Math, reading, spelling, writing, the English language, geography, United States history (come on people the country isn't that old there isn't that much to teach), science, health education, music, visual arts, physical education, bilingual education and/or English as a second language where the need is indicated, NYS History (while one of the older settled areas and yes we have a lot of history here this can be taught in one year).These have to be taught every year grades K-6: By the time my son was in 4th grade we had read the same crap over and over for NYS history especially.
I think honestly that you really only need through 6th grade. Anything beyond that would be because a kid wanted to learn more or needed to because they wanted to be a DR.
We spent most of the high school years reading biography's and learning real life skills. Math for one whole year was accounting, bookkeeping and basic life money skills.
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@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
Probably a mix. Few 8th graders are anywhere nearly prepared to talk politics. Things like geography and history are necessary for even basic functional citizenship (unless we remove democracy, then we don't have to educate every individual to all of these things - democracy comes at an incredible price.) Math needs to at least go to algebra. Science we go way, way too far. Computing we rarely even bother to introduce in any meaningful way. English lit... way too far.
I definitely understand where you are coming from - and I'll fully admit to my general lack of knowledge in history - but would dropping the general requirements for history really change much in the world we live in today?
History gives us good examples of things that have been tried and worked, or things that have tried and failed... In technology, government, business...
of course - but do these lessons get learned by the masses today? At bare minimum, finding a way to improve delivery and retention of this knowledge is required.
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@Minion-Queen said in Don't Stay in School:
There is a reason that homeschooling is growing fast in the US. If you homeschool yes you have "required crap to teach" but if you are smart you hand your kid the book and say read it fast.
Unless there is a standardized test that they are taking that proves they learned that knowledge, what's the point? Other than learning for learning sake of course.
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@Minion-Queen said in Don't Stay in School:
Required for NYS:
Elementary school required hours 6,480/ school year.What a trivial requirement.
Math, reading, spelling, writing, the English language, geography, United States history (come on people the country isn't that old there isn't that much to teach), science, health education, music, visual arts, physical education, bilingual education and/or English as a second language where the need is indicated, NYS History (while one of the older settled areas and yes we have a lot of history here this can be taught in one year).
The same was the case here in Nebraska - the repetition helps with maintaining memory though, so I'm not totally against it.
I think honestly that you really only need through 6th grade. Anything beyond that would be because a kid wanted to learn more or needed to because they wanted to be a DR.
Well Scott mentioned that he feels that students should be taught through at least algebra - I suppose basic algebra would be fine, simple variable equations are definitely good to be able to work out. We covered these in 6th grade if not before.
We spent most of the high school years reading biography's and learning real life skills. Math for one whole year was accounting, bookkeeping and basic life money skills.
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@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
Probably a mix. Few 8th graders are anywhere nearly prepared to talk politics. Things like geography and history are necessary for even basic functional citizenship (unless we remove democracy, then we don't have to educate every individual to all of these things - democracy comes at an incredible price.) Math needs to at least go to algebra. Science we go way, way too far. Computing we rarely even bother to introduce in any meaningful way. English lit... way too far.
I definitely understand where you are coming from - and I'll fully admit to my general lack of knowledge in history - but would dropping the general requirements for history really change much in the world we live in today?
History gives us good examples of things that have been tried and worked, or things that have tried and failed... In technology, government, business...
of course - but do these lessons get learned by the masses today? At bare minimum, finding a way to improve delivery and retention of this knowledge is required.
If this were before the time of Google and online encyclopedias, I would agree with you. I think now, though, that teaching someone HOW to find that wealth of knowledge rather than making them retain it is better in some regards. Not that they should never be taught the history. But in the teaching, show them how to search for and learn from history.
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In NYS they have to take some standardized testing but it's still dumb. You can literally (if your kid has a good memory) teach them everything for grades say 3-6 in one year. And then stop teaching. Obviously as a kid matures their outlook on Literature and the ability to write a better book report grows but really all the skills they need can be taught in one year. But what does writing a book report have to do with learning anything?
When you look at what they teach in most schools actual grammar isn't taught for more than a few weeks. Which should be taught more. Practical Math skills (pointing out why they need to learn things not just expect them to spew out memorized stuff), need to be taught.
I have conversations with my son's friends who went to regular school. They have NO life skills at all, hope they figure them out in college (oh wait they are going to drink and party).
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@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
Probably a mix. Few 8th graders are anywhere nearly prepared to talk politics. Things like geography and history are necessary for even basic functional citizenship (unless we remove democracy, then we don't have to educate every individual to all of these things - democracy comes at an incredible price.) Math needs to at least go to algebra. Science we go way, way too far. Computing we rarely even bother to introduce in any meaningful way. English lit... way too far.
I definitely understand where you are coming from - and I'll fully admit to my general lack of knowledge in history - but would dropping the general requirements for history really change much in the world we live in today?
History gives us good examples of things that have been tried and worked, or things that have tried and failed... In technology, government, business...
of course - but do these lessons get learned by the masses today? At bare minimum, finding a way to improve delivery and retention of this knowledge is required.
If this were before the time of Google and online encyclopedias, I would agree with you. I think now, though, that teaching someone HOW to find that wealth of knowledge rather than making them retain it is better in some regards. Not that they should never be taught the history. But in the teaching, show them how to search for and learn from history.
My HS chemistry teacher said - and I'll never forget this - that he wouldn't bother making us memorize the periodic table - why bother? You can always look it up. The parts that you use frequently would become memorized from use, and the rest are just a lookup away. I loved that man for that simple logic!
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@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
Probably a mix. Few 8th graders are anywhere nearly prepared to talk politics. Things like geography and history are necessary for even basic functional citizenship (unless we remove democracy, then we don't have to educate every individual to all of these things - democracy comes at an incredible price.) Math needs to at least go to algebra. Science we go way, way too far. Computing we rarely even bother to introduce in any meaningful way. English lit... way too far.
I definitely understand where you are coming from - and I'll fully admit to my general lack of knowledge in history - but would dropping the general requirements for history really change much in the world we live in today?
History gives us good examples of things that have been tried and worked, or things that have tried and failed... In technology, government, business...
of course - but do these lessons get learned by the masses today? At bare minimum, finding a way to improve delivery and retention of this knowledge is required.
If this were before the time of Google and online encyclopedias, I would agree with you. I think now, though, that teaching someone HOW to find that wealth of knowledge rather than making them retain it is better in some regards. Not that they should never be taught the history. But in the teaching, show them how to search for and learn from history.
According to my son this was one of the best things I taught him how to do: research on google.
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@Minion-Queen said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
Probably a mix. Few 8th graders are anywhere nearly prepared to talk politics. Things like geography and history are necessary for even basic functional citizenship (unless we remove democracy, then we don't have to educate every individual to all of these things - democracy comes at an incredible price.) Math needs to at least go to algebra. Science we go way, way too far. Computing we rarely even bother to introduce in any meaningful way. English lit... way too far.
I definitely understand where you are coming from - and I'll fully admit to my general lack of knowledge in history - but would dropping the general requirements for history really change much in the world we live in today?
History gives us good examples of things that have been tried and worked, or things that have tried and failed... In technology, government, business...
of course - but do these lessons get learned by the masses today? At bare minimum, finding a way to improve delivery and retention of this knowledge is required.
If this were before the time of Google and online encyclopedias, I would agree with you. I think now, though, that teaching someone HOW to find that wealth of knowledge rather than making them retain it is better in some regards. Not that they should never be taught the history. But in the teaching, show them how to search for and learn from history.
According to my son this was one of the best things I taught him how to do: research on google.
One of my Grad professors told the class that 90% of a systems admin job was researching stuff via Google. If you couldn't research then you weren't cut out to work in IT.
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@Minion-Queen said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
Probably a mix. Few 8th graders are anywhere nearly prepared to talk politics. Things like geography and history are necessary for even basic functional citizenship (unless we remove democracy, then we don't have to educate every individual to all of these things - democracy comes at an incredible price.) Math needs to at least go to algebra. Science we go way, way too far. Computing we rarely even bother to introduce in any meaningful way. English lit... way too far.
I definitely understand where you are coming from - and I'll fully admit to my general lack of knowledge in history - but would dropping the general requirements for history really change much in the world we live in today?
History gives us good examples of things that have been tried and worked, or things that have tried and failed... In technology, government, business...
of course - but do these lessons get learned by the masses today? At bare minimum, finding a way to improve delivery and retention of this knowledge is required.
If this were before the time of Google and online encyclopedias, I would agree with you. I think now, though, that teaching someone HOW to find that wealth of knowledge rather than making them retain it is better in some regards. Not that they should never be taught the history. But in the teaching, show them how to search for and learn from history.
According to my son this was one of the best things I taught him how to do: research on google.
This was probably the only successful thing my 12th grade English Lit teacher really did. He enforced critical research and tried to introduce value beyond what was beyond what the state required. It was eye opening to see how many of my peers simply didn't understand how to verify sources.
Although this was the same teacher who associated literally everything in classical literature with sex and more precisely phallic imagery.
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@Minion-Queen said in Don't Stay in School:
In NYS they have to take some standardized testing but it's still dumb. You can literally (if your kid has a good memory) teach them everything for grades say 3-6 in one year. And then stop teaching. Obviously as a kid matures their outlook on Literature and the ability to write a better book report grows but really all the skills they need can be taught in one year. But what does writing a book report have to do with learning anything?
What does writing a book report teach? ummm.. well, writing skills? Practice with grammer, getting corrected and trying again to make sure you get it right? Am I missing something here? It also teach one how to pass along information they obtained from a source, and helps the teacher ensure that that student did in fact understand the material.
When you look at what they teach in most schools actual grammar isn't taught for more than a few weeks. Which should be taught more.
man, it's been 30 years since elementary school for me, but I could have sworn we did grammar lessons for years. But I wonder how necessary that even was? Don't get me wrong, I definitely don't want to be a tweet suckin' millennial today - but we don't need collage level grammar for everyone either.
Practical Math skills (pointing out why they need to learn things not just expect them to spew out memorized stuff), need to be taught.
Practical math skills - Adding/subtracting/multiplying/dividing I suppose tossing in the ability to have a single variable in an equation built only from those four operators would be good, and add in area and volume and you probably have the basics covered for most people's need for life.
I have conversations with my son's friends who went to regular school. They have NO life skills at all, hope they figure them out in college (oh wait they are going to drink and party).
What life skills are you talking about? How to work queries on Google to find answer? How to balance a checkbook? A skill that is clearly missing from middle ages folks is how to actually use the internet, but I don't think most kids suffer this problem.
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@coliver said in Don't Stay in School:
@Minion-Queen said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
Probably a mix. Few 8th graders are anywhere nearly prepared to talk politics. Things like geography and history are necessary for even basic functional citizenship (unless we remove democracy, then we don't have to educate every individual to all of these things - democracy comes at an incredible price.) Math needs to at least go to algebra. Science we go way, way too far. Computing we rarely even bother to introduce in any meaningful way. English lit... way too far.
I definitely understand where you are coming from - and I'll fully admit to my general lack of knowledge in history - but would dropping the general requirements for history really change much in the world we live in today?
History gives us good examples of things that have been tried and worked, or things that have tried and failed... In technology, government, business...
of course - but do these lessons get learned by the masses today? At bare minimum, finding a way to improve delivery and retention of this knowledge is required.
If this were before the time of Google and online encyclopedias, I would agree with you. I think now, though, that teaching someone HOW to find that wealth of knowledge rather than making them retain it is better in some regards. Not that they should never be taught the history. But in the teaching, show them how to search for and learn from history.
According to my son this was one of the best things I taught him how to do: research on google.
One of my Grad professors told the class that 90% of a systems admin job was researching stuff via Google. If you couldn't research then you weren't cut out to work in IT.
This is true for IT, and well... pretty much any knowledge based field (Science, Think Tank, Law, etc)....
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@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
What life skills are you talking about? How to work queries on Google to find answer? How to balance a checkbook? A skill that is clearly missing from middle ages folks is how to actually use the internet, but I don't think most kids suffer this problem.
My peers, the ones that I graduated high school with and then went on to work with in IT (several of them were sales and accounting people at my last position) couldn't use Google or the internet for anything but checking sports scores and finding customers. None of them could use Google to troubleshoot even the most basic computer problems. Granted that's why I was hired but still, how to use Microsoft Word should be a reasonable thing to expect from a 25-30 year old.
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@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@coliver said in Don't Stay in School:
@Minion-Queen said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@dafyre said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
@scottalanmiller said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
I'll definitely agree that anything past probably 8th grade, and perhaps much less than that, are really needed by the common man.
Probably a mix. Few 8th graders are anywhere nearly prepared to talk politics. Things like geography and history are necessary for even basic functional citizenship (unless we remove democracy, then we don't have to educate every individual to all of these things - democracy comes at an incredible price.) Math needs to at least go to algebra. Science we go way, way too far. Computing we rarely even bother to introduce in any meaningful way. English lit... way too far.
I definitely understand where you are coming from - and I'll fully admit to my general lack of knowledge in history - but would dropping the general requirements for history really change much in the world we live in today?
History gives us good examples of things that have been tried and worked, or things that have tried and failed... In technology, government, business...
of course - but do these lessons get learned by the masses today? At bare minimum, finding a way to improve delivery and retention of this knowledge is required.
If this were before the time of Google and online encyclopedias, I would agree with you. I think now, though, that teaching someone HOW to find that wealth of knowledge rather than making them retain it is better in some regards. Not that they should never be taught the history. But in the teaching, show them how to search for and learn from history.
According to my son this was one of the best things I taught him how to do: research on google.
One of my Grad professors told the class that 90% of a systems admin job was researching stuff via Google. If you couldn't research then you weren't cut out to work in IT.
This is true for IT, and well... pretty much any knowledge based field (Science, Think Tank, Law, etc)....
Having worked with Engineers in the past that is also 90% of their job. They used to have spec books to do the research but now most things can be found on the internet. Successful engineers are able to research reliably unsuccessful ones never seem to be able to ask the right questions.
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Learning how to research is probably a life skill most people should have - one that is rarely taught and when taught is poorly taught. I still consider myself a noob at it.
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@coliver said in Don't Stay in School:
@Dashrender said in Don't Stay in School:
What life skills are you talking about? How to work queries on Google to find answer? How to balance a checkbook? A skill that is clearly missing from middle ages folks is how to actually use the internet, but I don't think most kids suffer this problem.
My peers, the ones that I graduated high school with and then went on to work with in IT (several of them were sales and accounting people at my last position) couldn't use Google or the internet for anything but checking sports scores and finding customers. None of them could use Google to troubleshoot even the most basic computer problems. Granted that's why I was hired but still, how to use Microsoft Word should be a reasonable thing to expect from a 25-30 year old.
Being able to troubleshoot even the most basic, non-technical issue should be expected from everyone. I completely understand that a single person can't know everything, like how to run plumbing in a house, or how to wire in a light switch. But everyone should be able to understand a solution to the problem. Even if they don't implement it, they should know what is "done correctly" and half-assed.
But if you can't figure out that the pop ups on your computer are malware, adware, or viruses with anything more than 10 seconds of thought, maybe you shouldn't own a computer.
Troubleshooting these issues doesn't require much either. Google the symptoms and find a resolution.
