Compare ClearOS with Zentyal
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@scottalanmiller said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Don't you even monitor basic stuff like CPU/RAM/HDD? Don't you get alerts on successful root logins? Do you monitor anything at all?
I have all this power today and do it, but I use the CLI. Everything that you feel that I am missing, I have. It's just all CLI based and works fine.
My argument is that for any given task that can be performed either by CLI or GUI, the GUI version will be nicer, visually intuitive, and easier to use.
I can type
dirin Windows, but I'll almost always choose Explorer with "Details" view, for example.I can't think of anything that I can do equally well in CLI or GUI where I prefer CLI. If the GUI does the same thing, it's always nicer.
CLI simply has more power in every case where the GUI is built with limits. I would give the example of cPanel here. If you've ever used WHM, it has a ton of options, but one of the odd things is that you can add IPs to the firewall, but you can't review them or remove them back out. You'd have to go to CLI to micro-manage the firewall rules.
There is also abstraction of multiple commands into one. When I create a new web hosting account, it does a ton of stuff behind the scenes creating the user, setting permissions, creating folder structure, editing Apache virtual hosts, editing DNS entries, creating FTP and email accounts, and any file limitations. Doing all that manually with CLI is prone to mistakes, missing a step, etc.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
My argument is that for any given task that can be performed either by CLI or GUI, the GUI version will be nicer, visually intuitive, and easier to use.
And mine is the opposite
Not always, but mostly especially for management, I always find the CLI faster, simpler and once you know what you are doing, easier to use. Sure, you have to learn, but you should probably know before managing a server. -
@scottalanmiller said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Based on a permissions system, certain parts of the GUI could be exposed to low level tech support or even staff.
Very true, and I've seen that done. But you can do that with CLI, too. Does a GUI really reduce training in that scenario? Maybe, but as someone who taught CLI to Solaris end users who are not even computer savvy, it wasn't hard. Anything takes training, CLI isn't that hard if you are being trained on a repetitive job.
Call me argumentative, but I haven't found any good training on Linux yet. Part of what frustrates me is that for any given thing I want to do, I have to like separate every different variation. Is this the Bash thing or the GNU? Is it the apt-get or the yum? Which commands are missing? Or crap it didn't have nano and now I have to use the train wreck that is vi.
I'm always on the lookout for decent ebooks to download, in fact I just grabbed 5 Linux ebooks a week ago. But then saw that they were about 8 years old! I don't know if that's good or bad, maybe they are still up to date? Maybe it's teaching something outdated?
I have this monstrous 2000 page book on the shelf in front of me, an old one, "Linux The Complete Reference". But its copyright is 1997! I don't know if it's even worth trying to look anything up in there to be honest.
I just wish I had a complete training book that isn't esoteric or so specific to a particular distro that it misses a lot of basics. I need training that makes things make sense.
I don't want to study Linux only to find out when I try to take the knowledge to my CentOS web servers that half of it doesn't apply!Training is everything, but I find that most people who teach Linux just assume everybody are cyborgs like them and dream in green Matrix code. They call the CLI "intuitive" when what they really mean is they are used to it and understand it.
Anyway, good training is important!
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Call me argumentative, but I haven't found any good training on Linux yet. Part of what frustrates me is that for any given thing I want to do, I have to like separate every different variation. Is this the Bash thing or the GNU? Is it the apt-get or the yum? Which commands are missing? Or crap it didn't have nano and now I have to use the train wreck that is vi.
Well trying to cover multiple operating systems makes it harder. That's like complaining that it is hard to remember the Windows from the Netware interface. If you are managing multiple ones, that makes it harder.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
I just wish I had a complete training book that isn't esoteric or so specific to a particular distro that it misses a lot of basics. I need training that makes things make sense.
You know that I'm working on that, right? Have you checked out my meager, but started training guide?
Which basics do you see missed? I'm always trying to figure out how the training works or fails.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Training is everything, but I find that most people who teach Linux just assume everybody are cyborgs like them and dream in green Matrix code. They call the CLI "intuitive" when what they really mean is they are used to it and understand it.
Anyway, good training is important!
I was trained on the Solaris CLI in 1994. At the time, the training felt good and intuitive.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
I just wish I had a complete training book that isn't esoteric or so specific to a particular distro that it misses a lot of basics. I need training that makes things make sense.
I don't want to study Linux only to find out when I try to take the knowledge to my CentOS web servers that half of it doesn't apply!Scott and I were recently talking about this. One thing I walked away with was that even though there is a lot of overly, each distro is a completely different OS. There is not, should not be any expectation that what works in on should work in another (even though more often than not it does).
Sadly we are not talking about the differences between Windows XP and Windows 7, we're talking about the difference between Windows XP and Mac OS.
I hate the use of the term Linux - oh it's just Linux, learn that and you're golden - BullShit! Linux is just a kernel, and is near worthless on it's own. The world needs to drop that phrasing and say - Oh learn Cent OS or learn Ubuntu. They are different, very different. I think if we divorce Linux from the conversation, the understanding that these OSs are different animals.. then much of the confusion will fall away.
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Check out the UNIX and Linux System Administration Handbook I think it is on the 4th edition now but it could use an update. It is pretty simple and well written.
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@Dashrender said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
I just wish I had a complete training book that isn't esoteric or so specific to a particular distro that it misses a lot of basics. I need training that makes things make sense.
I don't want to study Linux only to find out when I try to take the knowledge to my CentOS web servers that half of it doesn't apply!Scott and I were recently talking about this. One thing I walked away with was that even though there is a lot of overly, each distro is a completely different OS. There is not, should not be any expectation that what works in on should work in another (even though more often than not it does).
Sadly we are not talking about the differences between Windows XP and Windows 7, we're talking about the difference between Windows XP and Mac OS.
I hate the use of the term Linux - oh it's just Linux, learn that and you're golden - BullShit! Linux is just a kernel, and is near worthless on it's own. The world needs to drop that phrasing and say - Oh learn Cent OS or learn Ubuntu. They are different, very different. I think if we divorce Linux from the conversation, the understanding that these OSs are different animals.. then much of the confusion will fall away.
Are they really that different? Kind of but the general basics and metaphors are almost identical.
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@coliver said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@Dashrender said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
I just wish I had a complete training book that isn't esoteric or so specific to a particular distro that it misses a lot of basics. I need training that makes things make sense.
I don't want to study Linux only to find out when I try to take the knowledge to my CentOS web servers that half of it doesn't apply!Scott and I were recently talking about this. One thing I walked away with was that even though there is a lot of overly, each distro is a completely different OS. There is not, should not be any expectation that what works in on should work in another (even though more often than not it does).
Sadly we are not talking about the differences between Windows XP and Windows 7, we're talking about the difference between Windows XP and Mac OS.
I hate the use of the term Linux - oh it's just Linux, learn that and you're golden - BullShit! Linux is just a kernel, and is near worthless on it's own. The world needs to drop that phrasing and say - Oh learn Cent OS or learn Ubuntu. They are different, very different. I think if we divorce Linux from the conversation, the understanding that these OSs are different animals.. then much of the confusion will fall away.
Are they really that different? Kind of but the general basics and metaphors are almost identical.
it's like yum vs apt-get. Really? we needed two ways to do this? One wasn't good enough?
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@Dashrender said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@coliver said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@Dashrender said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
I just wish I had a complete training book that isn't esoteric or so specific to a particular distro that it misses a lot of basics. I need training that makes things make sense.
I don't want to study Linux only to find out when I try to take the knowledge to my CentOS web servers that half of it doesn't apply!Scott and I were recently talking about this. One thing I walked away with was that even though there is a lot of overly, each distro is a completely different OS. There is not, should not be any expectation that what works in on should work in another (even though more often than not it does).
Sadly we are not talking about the differences between Windows XP and Windows 7, we're talking about the difference between Windows XP and Mac OS.
I hate the use of the term Linux - oh it's just Linux, learn that and you're golden - BullShit! Linux is just a kernel, and is near worthless on it's own. The world needs to drop that phrasing and say - Oh learn Cent OS or learn Ubuntu. They are different, very different. I think if we divorce Linux from the conversation, the understanding that these OSs are different animals.. then much of the confusion will fall away.
Are they really that different? Kind of but the general basics and metaphors are almost identical.
it's like yum vs apt-get. Really? we needed two ways to do this? One wasn't good enough?
It's package management they may be somewhat different but the metaphors are basically identical.
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@Dashrender said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
I just wish I had a complete training book that isn't esoteric or so specific to a particular distro that it misses a lot of basics. I need training that makes things make sense.
I don't want to study Linux only to find out when I try to take the knowledge to my CentOS web servers that half of it doesn't apply!Scott and I were recently talking about this. One thing I walked away with was that even though there is a lot of overly, each distro is a completely different OS. There is not, should not be any expectation that what works in on should work in another (even though more often than not it does).
Sadly we are not talking about the differences between Windows XP and Windows 7, we're talking about the difference between Windows XP and Mac OS.
I hate the use of the term Linux - oh it's just Linux, learn that and you're golden - BullShit! Linux is just a kernel, and is near worthless on it's own. The world needs to drop that phrasing and say - Oh learn Cent OS or learn Ubuntu. They are different, very different. I think if we divorce Linux from the conversation, the understanding that these OSs are different animals.. then much of the confusion will fall away.
I think what gets people with this is Bash. Bash is pretty much the same across platforms, but Bash isn't Linux.
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@coliver said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Are they really that different? Kind of but the general basics and metaphors are almost identical.
They certainly CAN be wildly different.
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@johnhooks said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
I think what gets people with this is Bash. Bash is pretty much the same across platforms, but Bash isn't Linux.
And not all Linux uses it!
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@scottalanmiller said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@coliver said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Are they really that different? Kind of but the general basics and metaphors are almost identical.
They certainly CAN be wildly different.
Sure, they can be. Generally how you manage them isn't significantly different though. The file structure can be slightly different and some of the built in management tools are slightly different. Maybe I haven't dug into them enough to notice any extreme difference though.
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@coliver said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@scottalanmiller said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@coliver said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Are they really that different? Kind of but the general basics and metaphors are almost identical.
They certainly CAN be wildly different.
Sure, they can be. Generally how you manage them isn't significantly different though. The file structure can be slightly different and some of the built in management tools are slightly different. Maybe I haven't dug into them enough to notice any extreme difference though.
The real question becomes... what's the same?
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And so many things feel so arbitrary.
The other day I think I was using the find command or something, and found out that there is an alias "simplified" version of the command that overwrites the "real" one. So it goes, if you want the ability to use all the command options, you have to specifically reference the executable location like
/usr/bin/findbecause this gives full options and the useless simplified secret alias version doesn't have all the options.I hate little "gotchas" like this. So arbitrary, so useless and "undocumented".
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
And so many things feel so arbitrary.
The other day I think I was using the find command or something, and found out that there is an alias "simplified" version of the command that overwrites the "real" one. So it goes, if you want the ability to use all the command options, you have to specifically reference the executable location like
/usr/bin/findbecause this gives full options and the useless simplified secret alias version doesn't have all the options.I hate little "gotchas" like this. So arbitrary, so useless and "undocumented".
What overwrites find? What OS were you on? I've never seen that. It does not appear to be happening on my systems.
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@scottalanmiller said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
And so many things feel so arbitrary.
The other day I think I was using the find command or something, and found out that there is an alias "simplified" version of the command that overwrites the "real" one. So it goes, if you want the ability to use all the command options, you have to specifically reference the executable location like
/usr/bin/findbecause this gives full options and the useless simplified secret alias version doesn't have all the options.I hate little "gotchas" like this. So arbitrary, so useless and "undocumented".
What overwrites find? What OS were you on? I've never seen that. It does not appear to be happening on my systems.
I was reading a how-to for doing some advanced file-finding. It was either the find command or some other one. It said that their was a simplified alias version (built in to Bash?) that didn't have the advanced switches I needed, so they said to always reference the usr/bin version directly when using it.
Wish I could find it for you.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@scottalanmiller said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
And so many things feel so arbitrary.
The other day I think I was using the find command or something, and found out that there is an alias "simplified" version of the command that overwrites the "real" one. So it goes, if you want the ability to use all the command options, you have to specifically reference the executable location like
/usr/bin/findbecause this gives full options and the useless simplified secret alias version doesn't have all the options.I hate little "gotchas" like this. So arbitrary, so useless and "undocumented".
What overwrites find? What OS were you on? I've never seen that. It does not appear to be happening on my systems.
I was reading a how-to for doing some advanced file-finding. It was either the find command or some other one. It said that their was a simplified alias version (built in to Bash?) that didn't have the advanced switches I needed, so they said to always reference the usr/bin version directly when using it.
Wish I could find it for you.
Seems odd. I've never encountered that. If you find it again, let me know.
