Windows 10 Auto Update
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@scottalanmiller said:
@JaredBusch said:
Your homeline for an IT user I can agree with. But not for the general populace. They are not required to and should not be required to know jack shit about their system in order to be a user of a system.
I don't agree. We'd never excuse that in a car, why is your computer where you do your banking any different? You are expected to have a certain about of care and concern about all aspects of life. Computers are not a free pass to not do due diligence that is expected everywhere else.
You can not agree all you want. But until the manufacturer changes the system to be secure it is NOT the users onus.
Your response about people being expected to know about the oil change is also misguided and incorrect. Society has no expectation that you just "know" anything. The manufacturers put warning systems in modern cars to tell people when to go get an oil change. The only time you can fail that is to intentionally ignore the big amber light on your dashboard. Yes people do that, and then I will hold that it is their fault. Most people will see the light and check the manual or call the shop, or ask someone what it means and then take the appropriate action.
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@scottalanmiller said:
That's like saying that onus is on Chevy to buckle your seatbelt for you.
If everything on the computer was as easy as buckling your seatbelt there wouldn't be an issue.
If there was a seat belt click to protect you from malware and deleted files and everything else, we wouldn't need to have this conversation.
The car company has given you crumple zones, and air bags, and seatbelts, and all you have to do is one thing.
Why can't computers be like that?
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@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@JaredBusch said:
People avoid it? What planet are you on? The entire conversation is that they have no idea it is needed.
But they are offered it everywhere that they turn, just like they are with their car. Where are things different?
Due diligence in all things.
I think there is a sweet spot in regards to this. Yes they should know some things like basic maintenance etc. but I doubt all of us agree what is contained within that sweet spot knowledge-wise for our users.
Of course, and the most basic thing is not running as admin and the second most basic is reading things before you accept them. There has to be a minimum level of caring, at some point we can't help people.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@JaredBusch said:
People avoid it? What planet are you on? The entire conversation is that they have no idea it is needed.
But they are offered it everywhere that they turn, just like they are with their car. Where are things different?
Due diligence in all things.
I think there is a sweet spot in regards to this. Yes they should know some things like basic maintenance etc. but I doubt all of us agree what is contained within that sweet spot knowledge-wise for our users.
Of course, and the most basic thing is not running as admin and the second most basic is reading things before you accept them. There has to be a minimum level of caring, at some point we can't help people.
Again, you are missing the point. It is not possible for a user to run without admin rights because Microsoft does not set up their system to work that way.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@JaredBusch said:
People avoid it? What planet are you on? The entire conversation is that they have no idea it is needed.
But they are offered it everywhere that they turn, just like they are with their car. Where are things different?
Due diligence in all things.
I think there is a sweet spot in regards to this. Yes they should know some things like basic maintenance etc. but I doubt all of us agree what is contained within that sweet spot knowledge-wise for our users.
Of course, and the most basic thing is not running as admin and the second most basic is reading things before you accept them. There has to be a minimum level of caring, at some point we can't help people.
Right but there is a difference in users ability to learn. I have users who don't know what to do if a shortcut is moved on a desktop. We do the best we can. It would be great if everyone were intelligent enough (or motivated enough) to read books on all of the things we use daily but I don't think it's realistic as an expectation. Should they do it? Yeah of course. I don't expect them to though.
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@BRRABill said:
@scottalanmiller said:
That's like saying that onus is on Chevy to buckle your seatbelt for you.
If everything on the computer was as easy as buckling your seatbelt there wouldn't be an issue.
But tons of people don't buckle up. So I don't believe that theory at all. People often just don't care.
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@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@JaredBusch said:
People avoid it? What planet are you on? The entire conversation is that they have no idea it is needed.
But they are offered it everywhere that they turn, just like they are with their car. Where are things different?
Due diligence in all things.
I think there is a sweet spot in regards to this. Yes they should know some things like basic maintenance etc. but I doubt all of us agree what is contained within that sweet spot knowledge-wise for our users.
Of course, and the most basic thing is not running as admin and the second most basic is reading things before you accept them. There has to be a minimum level of caring, at some point we can't help people.
Right but there is a difference in users ability to learn. I have users who don't know what to do if a shortcut is moved on a desktop. We do the best we can. It would be great if everyone were intelligent enough (or motivated enough) to read books on all of the things we use daily but I don't think it's realistic as an expectation. Should they do it? Yeah of course. I don't expect them to though.
I didn't suggest that everyone learn. I suggested that some learn and some get guidance or help, just like with cars. I'm simply expecting the same level of diligence that we expect in all other parts of life.
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@JaredBusch said:
Again, you are missing the point. It is not possible for a user to run without admin rights because Microsoft does not set up their system to work that way.
I don't follow. Users that I know don't have that problem with Windows.
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@BRRABill said:
@scottalanmiller said:
That's like saying that onus is on Chevy to buckle your seatbelt for you.
If everything on the computer was as easy as buckling your seatbelt there wouldn't be an issue.
If there was a seat belt click to protect you from malware and deleted files and everything else, we wouldn't need to have this conversation.
The car company has given you crumple zones, and air bags, and seatbelts, and all you have to do is one thing.
Why can't computers be like that?
They are like that. There are computers that are actually easier to use than that. Chromebooks, for example. There are computers for newbies, computers for normal users, computers for advanced users. Computers can be super simple to use. I have family that can't handle things like running as an admin, they use computers that take care of that for them. They don't opt to use more complicated systems like Windows because they tried and found that they were not interested in that level of diligence to keep things working.
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@scottalanmiller said:
I don't follow. Users that I know don't have that problem with Windows.
I'm going to say there are 115 houses in my neighborhood.
How many of them do you guess are running Windows, and how many do you think have it as default with Admin rights?
You must know all IT people.
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@BRRABill said:
@scottalanmiller said:
I don't follow. Users that I know don't have that problem with Windows.
I'm going to say there are 115 houses in my neighborhood.
How many of them do you guess are running Windows, and how many do you think have it as default with Admin rights?
How many of them were forced to run Windows vs. how many chose to? How many did the level of diligence that we expect when buying a car?
The attitude in this thread is why I feel there are so many problems. We excuse and enable people by making it socially acceptable to not do their due diligence in this one part of life that no one would accept in any other walk of life.
If you had a wood shop and tried to say that you didn't know about proper safety mechanisms or bought a gun and didn't know how to use a safety we'd never allow you to get away with that as "well everyone does that." But with computers, we give everyone a free pass. No one held their hands, no one took away their options....
Statements like this make it possible for the government to actually contemplate taking away the rights to run our own computers as society actually begins to feel that they should not be expected to run them themselves.
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@BRRABill said:
You must know all IT people.
No, but as we've said before, I refuse to empower people that I know to do dangerous things by accepting the social pass that people so often give around these issues. I hold people accountable and, quite often, it works.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@BRRABill said:
@scottalanmiller said:
I don't follow. Users that I know don't have that problem with Windows.
I'm going to say there are 115 houses in my neighborhood.
How many of them do you guess are running Windows, and how many do you think have it as default with Admin rights?
How many of them were forced to run Windows vs. how many chose to? How many did the level of diligence that we expect when buying a car?
Chose to when their options were what? Buy a Mac or this Linux thing they know nothing about? That is marketing.
What diligence are you talking about when it comes to buying a car? The biggest diligence I see from most people is "what color is it" and "what gas mileage does it get?" I think you are the assuming things here.
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@scottalanmiller said:
We excuse and enable people by making it socially acceptable to not do their due diligence in this one part of life that no one would accept in any other walk of life.
I can get behind this sentiment. I try to educate my users as much as I can but our turnover rate is pretty bad. I also don't have a lot of users interested in it. My company does cater to people who "can't figure it out" and I don't agree with that. You have to change with technology.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@BRRABill said:
The onus is on the software vendor (Microsoft in this case) to fix their shit. and require non admin accounts by default.
That's like saying that onus is on Chevy to buckle your seatbelt for you.
In a sense this is true. We had to get seatbelt ads on TV to drive the point home with people.
Maybe uncle sam (can't believe I'm about to type this) should write a law that tech companies must supply money to a fund to create advertisements to make people smarter about computer security/updates/use.... etc.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@BRRABill said:
@scottalanmiller said:
I don't follow. Users that I know don't have that problem with Windows.
I'm going to say there are 115 houses in my neighborhood.
How many of them do you guess are running Windows, and how many do you think have it as default with Admin rights?
How many of them were forced to run Windows vs. how many chose to? How many did the level of diligence that we expect when buying a car?
The attitude in this thread is why I feel there are so many problems. We excuse and enable people by making it socially acceptable to not do their due diligence in this one part of life that no one would accept in any other walk of life.
If you had a wood shop and tried to say that you didn't know about proper safety mechanisms or bought a gun and didn't know how to use a safety we'd never allow you to get away with that as "well everyone does that." But with computers, we give everyone a free pass. No one held their hands, no one took away their options....
Statements like this make it possible for the government to actually contemplate taking away the rights to run our own computers as society actually begins to feel that they should not be expected to run them themselves.
I don't expect anyone buying a car to any due diligence - are you kidding? Look how many people are whining about high gas prices (when they were high), or buy huge vehicles that won't fit in places they often go, etc...
How many people injure themselves using a simple screwdriver, let alone more complex wood working tools - again I have no expectation of due diligence there either.
Guns, the safety - are you kidding? what do you mean you don't get away with not knowing how to use them, of course we do. Tons of people end up shot and little to nothing is done about it.
This is why I say the onus is on the maker to make the most secure, easy to use product possible.
Look at Apple - they enable iCloud backup by default, enable a pin by default, enable encryption by default. If these weren't defaulted, 90% or more people would never turn them on.
What I'm asking is - why hasn't MS turned this on by default? Then while creating that admin account force the user through like 15 prompt replies required where they have to do more than click a yes button so that people realize this new admin password they are creating is for special use?
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@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
We excuse and enable people by making it socially acceptable to not do their due diligence in this one part of life that no one would accept in any other walk of life.
I can get behind this sentiment. I try to educate my users as much as I can but our turnover rate is pretty bad. I also don't have a lot of users interested in it. My company does cater to people who "can't figure it out" and I don't agree with that. You have to change with technology.
It's a bigger thing. We have schools for this. People take computer classes. Teachers are supposed t be teaching something. It needs to be fundamental. You don't expect your corporate mechanic to teach everyone how to drive. It's not IT's job to educate. We get stuck doing it because, again, everyone empowers computers to be a "special case."
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@BRRABill said:
The onus is on the software vendor (Microsoft in this case) to fix their shit. and require non admin accounts by default.
That's like saying that onus is on Chevy to buckle your seatbelt for you.
In a sense this is true. We had to get seatbelt ads on TV to drive the point home with people.
Maybe uncle sam (can't believe I'm about to type this) should write a law that tech companies must supply money to a fund to create advertisements to make people smarter about computer security/updates/use.... etc.
Even ads didn't do it. We had to make it a law. How long before running as an admin should be outlawed with a $500 fine if caught so that malware is less likely to spread?
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@Dashrender said:
I don't expect anyone buying a car to any due diligence - are you kidding? Look how many people are whining about high gas prices (when they were high), or buy huge vehicles that won't fit in places they often go, etc...
Similar diligence with a car involves checking oil, air pressure, wiper fluid, etc.
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I may have missed someone already saying this as I skimmed through: believe I saw a headline that the upgrade was moving from the Recommended to the Important category.
If I didn't dream that, everyone who lets it install the important updates automatically would probably get it around the same time.
