Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals
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@IRJ said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
I'm not sure I understand the resentment on mangolassi of purchasing software.
I think it's hard to understand primarily because it doesn't exist. I'm not aware of anyone here, regardless of what claims people make about each other, that feels this way nor have I ever met someone around here who does (Stallman doesn't hang out here.)
I'm not sure if it's the lack of fanboi reaction to closed source that creates a perception of hating it? Or that some of us find FOSS to be far more viable than closed source fans would want to promote.. I have no idea.
But I can tell you, for certain, that the "all open source is evil" mantra remains and is repeated a lot and if anyone dares to suggest that FOSS licensing is advantages (licensing, not products) the diatribes about "all closed source software" and other "what does that have to do with what is said" responses are crazy, and totally assured.
You perceive that this community is anti-closed source software. I think what you're actually seeing is simply a community that considers both based on their merits and compared to the industry at large, that comes across as anti-CS because so many CS products are obviously (and Ballman has made this clear) relying on politicizing and FUD to seem viable.
And many people confuse Microsoft with closed source. It's often seen if someone isn't a MIcrosoft fan, that therefore it is the license that people don't like when, in reality, I think we all know it's primarily the product.
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@stacksofplates said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
@scottalanmiller said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
Forked so that you guys can have your discussion our of nowhere about a perceived resentment to closed source solutions based, I presume, on the fact that some of us don't like one or two pieces of software that happens to be closed rather than on anything stated. The original topic was about IT professionals vs. people who hire IT professionals and don't do any IT themselves, but somehow this thread on software got added to it. So it's forked so now you can talk about this perceived resentment.
The original post was about IT buying vs doing. Purchasing software to ease IT burden is 100% related to that. Not sure why you keep saying this.
Because that's not what is being discussed. It's about having "someone else" make the IT decisions, including the decisions to buy software. Software might ease IT burden, or make it worse. It software isn't "doing IT". And it's buying "IT", not "IT tools" being discussed.
IT Tools are not IT. If you "hire a plumber" you would never claim that "buying a plunger" was "buying a plumber". Clearly one is a tool that the other might use. But when asked when you are a plumber versus someone who hires plumbers, no would would think that "buying a plunger" counted as either.
And the topic wasn't then about the tools that could be bought, but even a total step away from that about open source vs. closed source tools, not tools versus people. So two entire steps unrelated to the topic.
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@scottalanmiller said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
@stacksofplates said in When Does It Stop Even Being IT: Buyers vs Doers:
So installation is not a feature, they're both pretty much the same.
It's a huge feature. That it is built into most OSes, and that we can install with just a command line from Windows (Chocolatey), and in all OSes get auto-updates that "just work"... it's a whopping feature.
That you even have to go somewhere to get MS Office is more work than installing LibreOffice. That's big IT time, over and over again to deal with.
You can install most versions of MS Office with Chocolatey now. Found it the other day and rejoiced that I no longer have to deal with ODT.
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@travisdh1 said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
@scottalanmiller said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
@stacksofplates said in When Does It Stop Even Being IT: Buyers vs Doers:
So installation is not a feature, they're both pretty much the same.
It's a huge feature. That it is built into most OSes, and that we can install with just a command line from Windows (Chocolatey), and in all OSes get auto-updates that "just work"... it's a whopping feature.
That you even have to go somewhere to get MS Office is more work than installing LibreOffice. That's big IT time, over and over again to deal with.
You can install most versions of MS Office with Chocolatey now. Found it the other day and rejoiced that I no longer have to deal with ODT.
WHAT?!?!?
How, tell me more. What the heck.
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@travisdh1 said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
@scottalanmiller said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
@stacksofplates said in When Does It Stop Even Being IT: Buyers vs Doers:
So installation is not a feature, they're both pretty much the same.
It's a huge feature. That it is built into most OSes, and that we can install with just a command line from Windows (Chocolatey), and in all OSes get auto-updates that "just work"... it's a whopping feature.
That you even have to go somewhere to get MS Office is more work than installing LibreOffice. That's big IT time, over and over again to deal with.
You can install most versions of MS Office with Chocolatey now. Found it the other day and rejoiced that I no longer have to deal with ODT.
Make a thread with instructions!
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@scottalanmiller said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
@travisdh1 said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
@scottalanmiller said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
@stacksofplates said in When Does It Stop Even Being IT: Buyers vs Doers:
So installation is not a feature, they're both pretty much the same.
It's a huge feature. That it is built into most OSes, and that we can install with just a command line from Windows (Chocolatey), and in all OSes get auto-updates that "just work"... it's a whopping feature.
That you even have to go somewhere to get MS Office is more work than installing LibreOffice. That's big IT time, over and over again to deal with.
You can install most versions of MS Office with Chocolatey now. Found it the other day and rejoiced that I no longer have to deal with ODT.
Make a thread with instructions!
You are slightly less excited than I was, lol.
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@scottalanmiller said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
@stacksofplates said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
@scottalanmiller said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
Forked so that you guys can have your discussion our of nowhere about a perceived resentment to closed source solutions based, I presume, on the fact that some of us don't like one or two pieces of software that happens to be closed rather than on anything stated. The original topic was about IT professionals vs. people who hire IT professionals and don't do any IT themselves, but somehow this thread on software got added to it. So it's forked so now you can talk about this perceived resentment.
The original post was about IT buying vs doing. Purchasing software to ease IT burden is 100% related to that. Not sure why you keep saying this.
Because that's not what is being discussed. It's about having "someone else" make the IT decisions, including the decisions to buy software. Software might ease IT burden, or make it worse. It software isn't "doing IT". And it's buying "IT", not "IT tools" being discussed.
It's directly related because you don't have to be an IT professional to purchase O365 and understand it provides many advantages like email, OneDrive, messaging, office suite, etc all in one package. You will still need to buy IT labor to run it, but alot less labor than separate custom solutions and a somewhat predictable monthly bill for service and labor.
Also Office 365 is more widely supported by other companies providing IT. Which is huge if relationships ever go sour.
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@IRJ said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
It's directly related because you don't have to be an IT professional to purchase O365
How is O365 IT? It's a product or service, but it's not IT. IT is the overseeing of business infrastructure. I covered this, a bit already, buying a product, like a plunger, and hiring a plumber are two different things. Entirely.
The thread was solely about IT, not IT products. The decision to buy O365, the planning around it can be done blindly, or with IT evaluating it. The question isn't about O365, but the decision process around deciding on it.
I think my point is being made for me. You can see that what is the core function of IT... the designing of the infrastructure of business, the evaluation of needs, the alignment of tech to the business' goals... is so foreign that we can't even discuss it without turning our attention to "products" rather than the act of doing the thing IT is there to do.
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@IRJ said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
Also Office 365 is more widely supported by other companies providing IT. Which is huge if relationships ever go sour.
This is related to the evaluation process, which is great, but the original question was about "doing the evaluation" or "buying the evaluation."
Actually, I like how that is phrased. I'm going to copy that over there.
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@IRJ said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
You will still need to buy IT labor to run it, but alot less labor than separate custom solutions and a somewhat predictable monthly bill for service and labor.
Sure, that later stage of the IT. But it takes way more IT skill and experience to evaluate products, services, approaches, alignment with needs, etc. than to operate a product. Especially one like O365 where there is loads of documentation and often SaaS behind the scenes doing a lot of the hard stuff.
To properly compare and think about costs, long term labor, lock in, formats, end user support, and all of the kinds of things that we have discussed... all of that should be stuff being considered before choices are made. And honestly, understanding it and putting it all together is much, much harder than logging into O365 and provisioning some users. That why one piece is a senior IT role and the other is often a helpdesk one (assuming helpdesk is roughly entry level in the org.)
This is what my original thread was about. Not outsourcing products or buying products. But rather making the decision of what to buy and/or do vs buying the decision of what to them buy and/or do.
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No resentment from me when it comes to purchasing software, I have more of resentment for those who buys or suckered into expensive or cheap ass software.
I'll provide FOSS as an option if it makes sence.
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@black3dynamite said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
No resentment from me when it comes to purchasing software, I have more of resentment for those who buys or suckered into expensive or cheap ass software.
This is the same as me. I have a thing for "doing good IT work, and evaluating the needs as is our career path, and picking the right solution for the task at hand." Many times, that's CSS, many time that's OSS.
But it sure feels like if you ever end up choosing OSS, even just once in a while, that you are branded as a crazy person who won't consider anything else.
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@IRJ said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
@scottalanmiller said in When Does It Stop Even Being IT: Buyers vs Doers:
@IRJ said in When Does It Stop Even Being IT: Buyers vs Doers:
So you have to go to your NTG or whatever IT labor you use and open your pockets at $150-300 an hour when you have an issue.
The obvious examples would be things like Windows or MS Office vs. Ubuntu or LibreOffice.
I seriously have to question if people who like LibreOffice actually use it for business. It is terrible at so many things. This is coming from someone who has used an Ubuntu workstation with LibreOffice for the last 6 years while working for multiple companies. Microsoft Office is 1000x better, and makes collaboration much easier. I have spent so much time trying to get LibreOffice to work or read MS office documents (that everyone else uses), and there has been nothing but issues. Not to mention LibreOffice is slower than MS Office by a good margin. If you work with big documents, LibreOffice is a dog.
I like both but I'm not exactly a power user when it comes to using Office products like LibreOffice or Microsoft Office, so my use of them works pretty well but if Microsoft made a desktop version for Linux, I'll probably buy it.
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@black3dynamite said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
@IRJ said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
@scottalanmiller said in When Does It Stop Even Being IT: Buyers vs Doers:
@IRJ said in When Does It Stop Even Being IT: Buyers vs Doers:
So you have to go to your NTG or whatever IT labor you use and open your pockets at $150-300 an hour when you have an issue.
The obvious examples would be things like Windows or MS Office vs. Ubuntu or LibreOffice.
I seriously have to question if people who like LibreOffice actually use it for business. It is terrible at so many things. This is coming from someone who has used an Ubuntu workstation with LibreOffice for the last 6 years while working for multiple companies. Microsoft Office is 1000x better, and makes collaboration much easier. I have spent so much time trying to get LibreOffice to work or read MS office documents (that everyone else uses), and there has been nothing but issues. Not to mention LibreOffice is slower than MS Office by a good margin. If you work with big documents, LibreOffice is a dog.
I like both but I'm not exactly a power user when it comes to using Office products like LibreOffice or Microsoft Office, so my use of them works pretty well but if Microsoft made a desktop version for Linux, I'll probably buy it.
I wouldn't here, but I have loads of customers for whom MS Office on Ubuntu would be an acceptable compromise as often their only Windows dependency is MS Office and only that because of some automation from some other application.
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@stacksofplates said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
GNOME would crash and they'd have to hard reboot. You're looking at this through a person who understands these things, not the normal office worker who has no experience with it.
Windows crashes pretty constantly, and provides no insight to the user or even the IT person investigating why.
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@scottalanmiller said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
@black3dynamite said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
@IRJ said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
@scottalanmiller said in When Does It Stop Even Being IT: Buyers vs Doers:
@IRJ said in When Does It Stop Even Being IT: Buyers vs Doers:
So you have to go to your NTG or whatever IT labor you use and open your pockets at $150-300 an hour when you have an issue.
The obvious examples would be things like Windows or MS Office vs. Ubuntu or LibreOffice.
I seriously have to question if people who like LibreOffice actually use it for business. It is terrible at so many things. This is coming from someone who has used an Ubuntu workstation with LibreOffice for the last 6 years while working for multiple companies. Microsoft Office is 1000x better, and makes collaboration much easier. I have spent so much time trying to get LibreOffice to work or read MS office documents (that everyone else uses), and there has been nothing but issues. Not to mention LibreOffice is slower than MS Office by a good margin. If you work with big documents, LibreOffice is a dog.
I like both but I'm not exactly a power user when it comes to using Office products like LibreOffice or Microsoft Office, so my use of them works pretty well but if Microsoft made a desktop version for Linux, I'll probably buy it.
I wouldn't here, but I have loads of customers for whom MS Office on Ubuntu would be an acceptable compromise as often their only Windows dependency is MS Office and only that because of some automation from some other application.
If there is a desktop version of MS Office for Linux (actually only Excel), we would remove Windows OS from our office desktops and laptops (30 workstations).
We use LibreOffice on other 25 POS PC's, but on them, we need Windows for POS software.
So - we gladly buy MS Office where we need it, but I would be happy that we don't need WIndows because of all troubles with updates -
In our case, we still use old MS Office 2010. We do not have troubles with it. We don't pay for it monthly. We can buy additional licenses for 50 EUR (used, we're in EU). Also we can't replace it with LibreOffice without huge costs (macros...)
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@DustinB3403 said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
@stacksofplates said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
GNOME would crash and they'd have to hard reboot. You're looking at this through a person who understands these things, not the normal office worker who has no experience with it.
Windows crashes pretty constantly, and provides no insight to the user or even the IT person investigating why.
THis is ridiculous, but my Gnome literally crashed while I was reading this, LMAO. But it was only a flicker. Thankfully Gnome crashes are often missed if you don't happen to be looking at the screen at the time. It tends to recover well.
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@Mario-Jakovina said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
In our case, we still use old MS Office 2010. We do not have troubles with it. We don't pay for it monthly. We can buy additional licenses for 50 EUR (used, we're in EU). Also we can't replace it with LibreOffice without huge costs (macros...)
Well, that is also bad IT practice. The software is not longer supported, doesn't have any further security updates. The fact it has worked is great but the major Windows 10 Updates since 1703 with Office 2010 have been a pain.
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@scottalanmiller said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
@IRJ said in Resentment to Purchasing Software - Split From Unrelated Topic on IT Professionals:
You will still need to buy IT labor to run it, but alot less labor than separate custom solutions and a somewhat predictable monthly bill for service and labor.
Sure, that later stage of the IT. But it takes way more IT skill and experience to evaluate products, services, approaches, alignment with needs, etc. than to operate a product. Especially one like O365 where there is loads of documentation and often SaaS behind the scenes doing a lot of the hard stuff.
To properly compare and think about costs, long term labor, lock in, formats, end user support, and all of the kinds of things that we have discussed... all of that should be stuff being considered before choices are made. And honestly, understanding it and putting it all together is much, much harder than logging into O365 and provisioning some users. That why one piece is a senior IT role and the other is often a helpdesk one (assuming helpdesk is roughly entry level in the org.)
This is what my original thread was about. Not outsourcing products or buying products. But rather making the decision of what to buy and/or do vs buying the decision of what to them buy and/or do.
So are you saying that for each customer you have you wan to manage their NextCloud instance, all their Linux machines and the syncing issues that might arise and not even counting the countless issues I encounter with people working with Libre Office or OpenOffice and their Java dependency.
So if you wanted to have an efficient setup you would use Office 365 to take care of the documents in Sharepoint (Centralized File Server if you would like to compare), Give the users their own One Drive with both Web and Local Office software and you wouldn't touch the server or the clients for updates unless they disable it. That would have also included OneNote to take notes, Teams to collaborate and so many other options. So That in itself makes a company spend less and actually if you want to do IT work for Microsoft or another cloud vendor and just do what you call "IT" Then go for it but lets not pretend that hosting your systems is cheaper and less problematic.
