Testing Zulip
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@scottalanmiller said in Testing Zulip:
I'll give another example that I think shows a similar case that "feels" different. We use MeshCentral for remote access/support. We don't charge for it as a line item for our existing customers (or new ones, lol.) The cost of it is crazy low on a per machine basis. Just having one conversation with a customer about where they want to pay for it and where they don't would waste an unacceptable amount of money for no gain. It's heavily to both our benefit and our customers' to have it in place. Everyone wins by making it universal and keeping the cost so low that no one notices.
If we broke it out, the cost of managing the accounts, tracking where it is deployed, discussing with the clients would easily cost $1/machine or more. By not doing that and simply deploying all/none on a client by client basis keeps the cost to a few pennies. It's deployed by script, it's managed in a blanket way that makes cost really, really low. So instead of a dollar per machine, it's more like a dollar per customer. Background noise. Everyone benefits.
Yes, I completely get it, this is no different than what I mentioned above - but it's still not zero cost to you. So you put it in the whatever GL catagory, instead of direct passing the cost down to the customer, no different than intel putting the cost of fabrication equipment into some general internal line item, because you could never break it out on a per items type basis, that's, as you mention, not cost effective... BUT you still have to have an otherwise higher end user fee because of that service than if you didn't offer that service, and if not higher fee, then lower profits, tomato tomato..
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@scottalanmiller said in Testing Zulip:
We have a separate team that deals just with customer service handling. We try hard to never let phones go to voicemail, and I think we only see that once every several months (like two to three times a year.) We have a tiered desk that answers the phones, then their managers and a few techs who have volunteered take calls if the front line is overwhelmed, which is rare since Paul and I ring with the front line so if they are swamped, we tend to know and can grab calls before they go to managers like @valentina and then we typically, depending on the path, have a third tier that can catch most calls if they fall through both of those levels and if, by some unbelievable situation, it makes it all the way through the third tier, it goes to voicemail that automatically emails everyone to find someone to deal with a customer that's tried to call and couldn't get through. THEN a tech might respond immediately because they couldn't get to triage. But like I said, 2-3 times a year. It's rare and we staff up to make sure it stays at about that rate.
Generally the front line takes a call, puts in a ticket while on the phone, finds the right tech, and transfers (along with the ticket and notes) directly to the tech. It's not a delaying tactic, it's to allow the triage layer to find the right resource that both has the right technical skill set and is currently available to step in. Otherwise, we'd have techs grabbing the phone and you might be calling about a printer and get a storage guy or something.
The CEO and CIO are taking helpdesk calls? That cannot be a good use of company money? That just seems crazy.
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@stacksofplates said in Testing Zulip:
@scottalanmiller said in Testing Zulip:
We have a separate team that deals just with customer service handling. We try hard to never let phones go to voicemail, and I think we only see that once every several months (like two to three times a year.) We have a tiered desk that answers the phones, then their managers and a few techs who have volunteered take calls if the front line is overwhelmed, which is rare since Paul and I ring with the front line so if they are swamped, we tend to know and can grab calls before they go to managers like @valentina and then we typically, depending on the path, have a third tier that can catch most calls if they fall through both of those levels and if, by some unbelievable situation, it makes it all the way through the third tier, it goes to voicemail that automatically emails everyone to find someone to deal with a customer that's tried to call and couldn't get through. THEN a tech might respond immediately because they couldn't get to triage. But like I said, 2-3 times a year. It's rare and we staff up to make sure it stays at about that rate.
Generally the front line takes a call, puts in a ticket while on the phone, finds the right tech, and transfers (along with the ticket and notes) directly to the tech. It's not a delaying tactic, it's to allow the triage layer to find the right resource that both has the right technical skill set and is currently available to step in. Otherwise, we'd have techs grabbing the phone and you might be calling about a printer and get a storage guy or something.
The CEO and CIO are taking helpdesk calls? That cannot be a good use of company money? That just seems crazy.
Well, he's not alone - my boss constantly takes phone calls, she can't allow technology to do it's job - i.e. go to VM, we'll call them back.
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@Dashrender said in Testing Zulip:
@stacksofplates said in Testing Zulip:
@scottalanmiller said in Testing Zulip:
We have a separate team that deals just with customer service handling. We try hard to never let phones go to voicemail, and I think we only see that once every several months (like two to three times a year.) We have a tiered desk that answers the phones, then their managers and a few techs who have volunteered take calls if the front line is overwhelmed, which is rare since Paul and I ring with the front line so if they are swamped, we tend to know and can grab calls before they go to managers like @valentina and then we typically, depending on the path, have a third tier that can catch most calls if they fall through both of those levels and if, by some unbelievable situation, it makes it all the way through the third tier, it goes to voicemail that automatically emails everyone to find someone to deal with a customer that's tried to call and couldn't get through. THEN a tech might respond immediately because they couldn't get to triage. But like I said, 2-3 times a year. It's rare and we staff up to make sure it stays at about that rate.
Generally the front line takes a call, puts in a ticket while on the phone, finds the right tech, and transfers (along with the ticket and notes) directly to the tech. It's not a delaying tactic, it's to allow the triage layer to find the right resource that both has the right technical skill set and is currently available to step in. Otherwise, we'd have techs grabbing the phone and you might be calling about a printer and get a storage guy or something.
The CEO and CIO are taking helpdesk calls? That cannot be a good use of company money? That just seems crazy.
Well, he's not alone - my boss constantly takes phone calls, she can't allow technology to do it's job - i.e. go to VM, we'll call them back.
Is your boss the CIO/CEO? They are taking the calls so that the manager doesn't have to. Does your CEO take calls so your manager doesn't have to?
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@stacksofplates said in Testing Zulip:
@Dashrender said in Testing Zulip:
@stacksofplates said in Testing Zulip:
@scottalanmiller said in Testing Zulip:
We have a separate team that deals just with customer service handling. We try hard to never let phones go to voicemail, and I think we only see that once every several months (like two to three times a year.) We have a tiered desk that answers the phones, then their managers and a few techs who have volunteered take calls if the front line is overwhelmed, which is rare since Paul and I ring with the front line so if they are swamped, we tend to know and can grab calls before they go to managers like @valentina and then we typically, depending on the path, have a third tier that can catch most calls if they fall through both of those levels and if, by some unbelievable situation, it makes it all the way through the third tier, it goes to voicemail that automatically emails everyone to find someone to deal with a customer that's tried to call and couldn't get through. THEN a tech might respond immediately because they couldn't get to triage. But like I said, 2-3 times a year. It's rare and we staff up to make sure it stays at about that rate.
Generally the front line takes a call, puts in a ticket while on the phone, finds the right tech, and transfers (along with the ticket and notes) directly to the tech. It's not a delaying tactic, it's to allow the triage layer to find the right resource that both has the right technical skill set and is currently available to step in. Otherwise, we'd have techs grabbing the phone and you might be calling about a printer and get a storage guy or something.
The CEO and CIO are taking helpdesk calls? That cannot be a good use of company money? That just seems crazy.
Well, he's not alone - my boss constantly takes phone calls, she can't allow technology to do it's job - i.e. go to VM, we'll call them back.
Is your boss the CIO/CEO? They are taking the calls so that the manager doesn't have to. Does your CEO take calls so your manager doesn't have to?
Yeah, my boss is basically the CEO (medical practices don't call them that - they generally call them Office Managers).
no, my boss is taking them along with the manager taking them. It is weird that Scott would want the call before the manager of the HELPDESK personal - what is that manager doing that's so much more valuable than answering the phone? What makes what they are doing more valuable than Scott evaluating the next replacement for Rocket.chat for the company to not spend money on?
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@Dashrender said in Testing Zulip:
@stacksofplates said in Testing Zulip:
@Dashrender said in Testing Zulip:
@stacksofplates said in Testing Zulip:
@scottalanmiller said in Testing Zulip:
We have a separate team that deals just with customer service handling. We try hard to never let phones go to voicemail, and I think we only see that once every several months (like two to three times a year.) We have a tiered desk that answers the phones, then their managers and a few techs who have volunteered take calls if the front line is overwhelmed, which is rare since Paul and I ring with the front line so if they are swamped, we tend to know and can grab calls before they go to managers like @valentina and then we typically, depending on the path, have a third tier that can catch most calls if they fall through both of those levels and if, by some unbelievable situation, it makes it all the way through the third tier, it goes to voicemail that automatically emails everyone to find someone to deal with a customer that's tried to call and couldn't get through. THEN a tech might respond immediately because they couldn't get to triage. But like I said, 2-3 times a year. It's rare and we staff up to make sure it stays at about that rate.
Generally the front line takes a call, puts in a ticket while on the phone, finds the right tech, and transfers (along with the ticket and notes) directly to the tech. It's not a delaying tactic, it's to allow the triage layer to find the right resource that both has the right technical skill set and is currently available to step in. Otherwise, we'd have techs grabbing the phone and you might be calling about a printer and get a storage guy or something.
The CEO and CIO are taking helpdesk calls? That cannot be a good use of company money? That just seems crazy.
Well, he's not alone - my boss constantly takes phone calls, she can't allow technology to do it's job - i.e. go to VM, we'll call them back.
Is your boss the CIO/CEO? They are taking the calls so that the manager doesn't have to. Does your CEO take calls so your manager doesn't have to?
Yeah, my boss is basically the CEO (medical practices don't call them that - they generally call them Office Managers).
no, my boss is taking them along with the manager taking them. It is weird that Scott would want the call before the manager of the HELPDESK personal - what is that manager doing that's so much more valuable than answering the phone? What makes what they are doing more valuable than Scott evaluating the next replacement for Rocket.chat for the company to not spend money on?
There's no reality where I can be convinced that it's useful to have the CEO/CIO answering the phone when you can somehow get a competent systems engineer for $5-6 an hour. At that rate a helpdesk person should be $3 an hour. There isn't a universe where having more helpdesk people to answer the phones makes less sense than the highest paid people in the company.
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@scottalanmiller said in Testing Zulip:
@jmoore said in Testing Zulip:
@stacksofplates said in Testing Zulip:
@stacksofplates said in Testing Zulip:
@gjacobse said in Testing Zulip:
@stacksofplates said in Testing Zulip:
@scottalanmiller said in Testing Zulip:
At that price, we were able to afford to hire a full time engineer just to build and support a solution to replace it and were able to provide a vastly superior solution to the customers, at lower cost
You hired an engineer for $600 a month?
I'm guessing because "hundreds" doesn't tell me anything. So I'm going with 200 people.
While it’s been two or so years since I was an active NTG staffer, one client would have had 200 employees in just one state, and they where in all 50.
Rocket was a good process as it allowed for whole company separation and still include notifications like down time. But also allowed for the personalization of direct contact that wasn’t a flood to NTG
Wait a minute. So NTG is offering Rocket.Chat as a service to customers for internal communication along with using it as a means of notifications for SLOs?
And at no cost to the customer?
Yeah I'm not understanding this line of reasoning either. I get they want to be cheap to get business, but at some point it's not going to work as well as clients need as they often need hand-holding.
It's less a desire to be cheap, and more a desire to provide a premium service. Would you want your IT company to not be easy to communicate with bidirectionally? Very few companies want an IT department that is set apart and not an active participant in the business.
Oh sure good communication means a lot so I can see this point. I am just thinking about the free services that are available and if any will ultimately meet your customer needs.
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@Dashrender said in Testing Zulip:
@scottalanmiller said in Testing Zulip:
I'll give another example that I think shows a similar case that "feels" different. We use MeshCentral for remote access/support. We don't charge for it as a line item for our existing customers (or new ones, lol.) The cost of it is crazy low on a per machine basis. Just having one conversation with a customer about where they want to pay for it and where they don't would waste an unacceptable amount of money for no gain. It's heavily to both our benefit and our customers' to have it in place. Everyone wins by making it universal and keeping the cost so low that no one notices.
If we broke it out, the cost of managing the accounts, tracking where it is deployed, discussing with the clients would easily cost $1/machine or more. By not doing that and simply deploying all/none on a client by client basis keeps the cost to a few pennies. It's deployed by script, it's managed in a blanket way that makes cost really, really low. So instead of a dollar per machine, it's more like a dollar per customer. Background noise. Everyone benefits.
Yes, I completely get it, this is no different than what I mentioned above - but it's still not zero cost to you. So you put it in the whatever GL catagory, instead of direct passing the cost down to the customer, no different than intel putting the cost of fabrication equipment into some general internal line item, because you could never break it out on a per items type basis, that's, as you mention, not cost effective... BUT you still have to have an otherwise higher end user fee because of that service than if you didn't offer that service, and if not higher fee, then lower profits, tomato tomato..
Sometimes. It may not actually be higher, it can be lower. But either way, the cost is so low on a per customer / user basis. That's the important part.
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@stacksofplates said in Testing Zulip:
@scottalanmiller said in Testing Zulip:
We have a separate team that deals just with customer service handling. We try hard to never let phones go to voicemail, and I think we only see that once every several months (like two to three times a year.) We have a tiered desk that answers the phones, then their managers and a few techs who have volunteered take calls if the front line is overwhelmed, which is rare since Paul and I ring with the front line so if they are swamped, we tend to know and can grab calls before they go to managers like @valentina and then we typically, depending on the path, have a third tier that can catch most calls if they fall through both of those levels and if, by some unbelievable situation, it makes it all the way through the third tier, it goes to voicemail that automatically emails everyone to find someone to deal with a customer that's tried to call and couldn't get through. THEN a tech might respond immediately because they couldn't get to triage. But like I said, 2-3 times a year. It's rare and we staff up to make sure it stays at about that rate.
Generally the front line takes a call, puts in a ticket while on the phone, finds the right tech, and transfers (along with the ticket and notes) directly to the tech. It's not a delaying tactic, it's to allow the triage layer to find the right resource that both has the right technical skill set and is currently available to step in. Otherwise, we'd have techs grabbing the phone and you might be calling about a printer and get a storage guy or something.
The CEO and CIO are taking helpdesk calls? That cannot be a good use of company money? That just seems crazy.
Better than having them sit idle and not know what's going on in the company because they are so disconnected. At some point, those roles have to have jobs.
I took one those calls tonight and am hoping it's over $100K of benefit because I did so. I definitely don't have many hours that make more money than that. Now, is it certainly $100K? No. Likely, actually yes. Keeping tabs on operations can have value.
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@Dashrender said in Testing Zulip:
@stacksofplates said in Testing Zulip:
@scottalanmiller said in Testing Zulip:
We have a separate team that deals just with customer service handling. We try hard to never let phones go to voicemail, and I think we only see that once every several months (like two to three times a year.) We have a tiered desk that answers the phones, then their managers and a few techs who have volunteered take calls if the front line is overwhelmed, which is rare since Paul and I ring with the front line so if they are swamped, we tend to know and can grab calls before they go to managers like @valentina and then we typically, depending on the path, have a third tier that can catch most calls if they fall through both of those levels and if, by some unbelievable situation, it makes it all the way through the third tier, it goes to voicemail that automatically emails everyone to find someone to deal with a customer that's tried to call and couldn't get through. THEN a tech might respond immediately because they couldn't get to triage. But like I said, 2-3 times a year. It's rare and we staff up to make sure it stays at about that rate.
Generally the front line takes a call, puts in a ticket while on the phone, finds the right tech, and transfers (along with the ticket and notes) directly to the tech. It's not a delaying tactic, it's to allow the triage layer to find the right resource that both has the right technical skill set and is currently available to step in. Otherwise, we'd have techs grabbing the phone and you might be calling about a printer and get a storage guy or something.
The CEO and CIO are taking helpdesk calls? That cannot be a good use of company money? That just seems crazy.
Well, he's not alone - my boss constantly takes phone calls, she can't allow technology to do it's job - i.e. go to VM, we'll call them back.
Well, she could argue that VM's job is to catch when IT can't get to it, and by picking it up, IT did it's job and got to it. So the VM was still doing its job, it just didn't have to do anything because IT also did its.
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@stacksofplates said in Testing Zulip:
@Dashrender said in Testing Zulip:
@stacksofplates said in Testing Zulip:
@scottalanmiller said in Testing Zulip:
We have a separate team that deals just with customer service handling. We try hard to never let phones go to voicemail, and I think we only see that once every several months (like two to three times a year.) We have a tiered desk that answers the phones, then their managers and a few techs who have volunteered take calls if the front line is overwhelmed, which is rare since Paul and I ring with the front line so if they are swamped, we tend to know and can grab calls before they go to managers like @valentina and then we typically, depending on the path, have a third tier that can catch most calls if they fall through both of those levels and if, by some unbelievable situation, it makes it all the way through the third tier, it goes to voicemail that automatically emails everyone to find someone to deal with a customer that's tried to call and couldn't get through. THEN a tech might respond immediately because they couldn't get to triage. But like I said, 2-3 times a year. It's rare and we staff up to make sure it stays at about that rate.
Generally the front line takes a call, puts in a ticket while on the phone, finds the right tech, and transfers (along with the ticket and notes) directly to the tech. It's not a delaying tactic, it's to allow the triage layer to find the right resource that both has the right technical skill set and is currently available to step in. Otherwise, we'd have techs grabbing the phone and you might be calling about a printer and get a storage guy or something.
The CEO and CIO are taking helpdesk calls? That cannot be a good use of company money? That just seems crazy.
Well, he's not alone - my boss constantly takes phone calls, she can't allow technology to do it's job - i.e. go to VM, we'll call them back.
Is your boss the CIO/CEO? They are taking the calls so that the manager doesn't have to. Does your CEO take calls so your manager doesn't have to?
That's what I do. I mean I'm COO but potato potahto. I take calls when I'm not in the midsts of something if it is going to interrupt managers who likely are. But if I'm in the middle of something, I let them fall through.
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@stacksofplates said in Testing Zulip:
@Dashrender said in Testing Zulip:
@stacksofplates said in Testing Zulip:
@Dashrender said in Testing Zulip:
@stacksofplates said in Testing Zulip:
@scottalanmiller said in Testing Zulip:
We have a separate team that deals just with customer service handling. We try hard to never let phones go to voicemail, and I think we only see that once every several months (like two to three times a year.) We have a tiered desk that answers the phones, then their managers and a few techs who have volunteered take calls if the front line is overwhelmed, which is rare since Paul and I ring with the front line so if they are swamped, we tend to know and can grab calls before they go to managers like @valentina and then we typically, depending on the path, have a third tier that can catch most calls if they fall through both of those levels and if, by some unbelievable situation, it makes it all the way through the third tier, it goes to voicemail that automatically emails everyone to find someone to deal with a customer that's tried to call and couldn't get through. THEN a tech might respond immediately because they couldn't get to triage. But like I said, 2-3 times a year. It's rare and we staff up to make sure it stays at about that rate.
Generally the front line takes a call, puts in a ticket while on the phone, finds the right tech, and transfers (along with the ticket and notes) directly to the tech. It's not a delaying tactic, it's to allow the triage layer to find the right resource that both has the right technical skill set and is currently available to step in. Otherwise, we'd have techs grabbing the phone and you might be calling about a printer and get a storage guy or something.
The CEO and CIO are taking helpdesk calls? That cannot be a good use of company money? That just seems crazy.
Well, he's not alone - my boss constantly takes phone calls, she can't allow technology to do it's job - i.e. go to VM, we'll call them back.
Is your boss the CIO/CEO? They are taking the calls so that the manager doesn't have to. Does your CEO take calls so your manager doesn't have to?
Yeah, my boss is basically the CEO (medical practices don't call them that - they generally call them Office Managers).
no, my boss is taking them along with the manager taking them. It is weird that Scott would want the call before the manager of the HELPDESK personal - what is that manager doing that's so much more valuable than answering the phone? What makes what they are doing more valuable than Scott evaluating the next replacement for Rocket.chat for the company to not spend money on?
There's no reality where I can be convinced that it's useful to have the CEO/CIO answering the phone when you can somehow get a competent systems engineer for $5-6 an hour. At that rate a helpdesk person should be $3 an hour. There isn't a universe where having more helpdesk people to answer the phones makes less sense than the highest paid people in the company.
There is, actually. All your numbers are fine. Low, maybe, but let's stick with them. Sure, a $3/hr person is only $500/mo. That's nothing. NOTHING. However, if the helpdesk takes every single call, you start to get disconnected as management. Even if we have enough staff to take every call, I still want to take some here and there (and do.) I try to avoid really shit calls, like printers. But I'll take all kinds of random other things from time to time. I want direct customer feedback that I can only get when I sound like a tech. But more than than, let's say I spent 30 minutes a week doing this. Well, let's say 4 hours a month for easy math. That's $125/hr that I'd be covering versus hiring a customer service person. But I'm not only covering for customer service, but for an engineer. I'm often solving a ticket fast without having to transfer. So I'm really covering more than $250/hr.
If my only value was in eliminating having to hire another person, that's worth it even if my salary was pushing a million a year, and definitely worth it for anything under $500K, no question. But that's not the only value, it's also good for team morale, it's good for customer relationship, it's part of my management job, and it is the single strongest sales channel that we have (like tonight.)
So I think using math based on the numbers you used, yeah, in this world, it's overwhelmingly worth it.
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@jmoore said in Testing Zulip:
@scottalanmiller said in Testing Zulip:
@jmoore said in Testing Zulip:
@stacksofplates said in Testing Zulip:
@stacksofplates said in Testing Zulip:
@gjacobse said in Testing Zulip:
@stacksofplates said in Testing Zulip:
@scottalanmiller said in Testing Zulip:
At that price, we were able to afford to hire a full time engineer just to build and support a solution to replace it and were able to provide a vastly superior solution to the customers, at lower cost
You hired an engineer for $600 a month?
I'm guessing because "hundreds" doesn't tell me anything. So I'm going with 200 people.
While it’s been two or so years since I was an active NTG staffer, one client would have had 200 employees in just one state, and they where in all 50.
Rocket was a good process as it allowed for whole company separation and still include notifications like down time. But also allowed for the personalization of direct contact that wasn’t a flood to NTG
Wait a minute. So NTG is offering Rocket.Chat as a service to customers for internal communication along with using it as a means of notifications for SLOs?
And at no cost to the customer?
Yeah I'm not understanding this line of reasoning either. I get they want to be cheap to get business, but at some point it's not going to work as well as clients need as they often need hand-holding.
It's less a desire to be cheap, and more a desire to provide a premium service. Would you want your IT company to not be easy to communicate with bidirectionally? Very few companies want an IT department that is set apart and not an active participant in the business.
Oh sure good communication means a lot so I can see this point. I am just thinking about the free services that are available and if any will ultimately meet your customer needs.
Well Rocket.chat has been working great, we just fear the high cost that might be coming. Mattermost will work, I'm sure. We were testing Zulip because an engineer thought that it looked interested and the description sounded great, but in practice I just feel that the complication is too high for end users.
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@stacksofplates said in Testing Zulip:
There isn't a universe where having more helpdesk people to answer the phones makes less sense than the highest paid people in the company.
You know, I used to work in restaurants and our regional manager used to say essentially the same thing. He felt that the managers should manage, the workers should "do" and that you got your best results by keeping them separate, that if the manager wasn't always actively managing that they were wasted. They were, after all, paid more than any worker.
My shop always ignored this, for a few reasons. One, just the math showed that it didn't work. Not at a restaurant scale, anyway. And it missed a few key concepts, like that the manager managing but never doing was often lost and not able to manage well. And that it made the workers feel like "us vs them" and not like a team. It also meant that you needed more workers.
My team was the highest performance team in the franchise group, which was state wide (like sixty restaurants.) We eventually were used to go into other restaurants and save them when they were failing. Our secret?
I treated the workers like they were valuable, I did as much work as them (okay, not quite, they were just better than me, but I tried), they saw us as a team and knew we were there for each other, and we didn't staff the place with people who weren't doing anything. When things were slow, they cleaned and I did paperwork. When the rushes hit, I was in the trenches with them whenever needed, in any position needed. We weren't just faster, but we also had less waste, and less staffing cost. We were the highest profit margins.
I avoided micromanaging, and managed by leading instead of by instructing. The difference that it made was significant.
The thing that I learned, and still apply today, is that there's no job beneath me. I do whatever is needed to make sure that the company runs smoothly - which is primarily making the team run like clockwork. Sure, I earn more than most of the team, but what makes me valuable enough to be paid that isn't that I'm normally doing some magical work that no one else could do or that I'm better or anything, it's that I magnify the people on the team to best effect. As great as it would be to be spending every moment of the day closing million dollar deals, there just aren't that many deals to be closing. When those happen, yeah, that's where I focus. When those aren't happening, I look for strategic opportunity. When I'm not tied up with that, I lead by example. I'm in the trenches, shoulder to shoulder with the team(s) whether they are management, engineering, customer service, sales, finance, etc.
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OMG, I can practically remember the team. It was Chris Green as the shift lead, he did both kitchen and front line, but mostly kitchen. Then Mark, he did the misc. kitchen work like cleaning and moving food around. Leanne was the cashier front line girl. I can't quite remember the full time cooks name, but I can picture him (haven't pictured him in forever.) And once in a while we'd get Kevin on a jail release program (wasn't violent, just couldn't stop hot rodding cars illegally.)
That teams kicked so much ass. Sadly, when I wasn't there the franchise treated them with indifference and they all went on to other restaurants. If I had had the wherewithal to buy my own restaurant back then and hire them, I'd have made a mint.
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@scottalanmiller said in Testing Zulip:
My shop always ignored this, for a few reasons. One, just the math showed that it didn't work. Not at a restaurant scale, anyway. And it missed a few key concepts, like that the manager managing but never doing was often lost and not able to manage well. And that it made the workers feel like "us vs them" and not like a team. It also meant that you needed more workers.
This was something I used to complain about where I work. Management was so disconnected they only managed( went to meetings, verified payroll, checked off their projects, etc) and had little idea how things actually happened or what needed to be done to make things happen. It hasn't got any better, I just got tired of complaining .
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@scottalanmiller said in Testing Zulip:
The thing that I learned, and still apply today, is that there's no job beneath me. I do whatever is needed to make sure that the company runs smoothly - which is primarily making the team run like clockwork. Sure, I earn more than most of the team, but what makes me valuable enough to be paid that isn't that I'm normally doing some magical work that no one else could do or that I'm better or anything, it's that I magnify the people on the team to best effect.
This I greatly admire and wish my management did some of. We are very disconnected. Management doesn't know how I do things and when I try to talk about it i think her eyes glaze over lol. I'm by far the least paid person in the department but I can do the basic roles of all the other positions. I've helped with our erp, sql queries, php on the website with our web dev guy, gone over quotes for av installs because we were getting robbed, helped the secretary with mounds of paperwork when she came back from maternity leave, and of course my job which is functionally a desktop admin. None of my coworkers or management have ever tried to help me or tried to learn what it takes. For example we got 300 desktops and 70 new laptops in which is typical for a summer refresh. I do it all by myself every year. No one outside my supervisor knows how to image anything and he hasn't done it in 10 years I'm guessing. I move all imaged machines myself to labs and classrooms over 3 campuses which are in 3 different towns. I do all the software installs and app updates for all 3 campuses as well as general work tickets. I currently have 40 tickets between the 3 campuses which is about average I guess. It rarely gets much lower than that. Its not that I have to have help but it would just be nice if someone took an interest one day to at least know why I am always stressed every day balancing users tickets, hardware installs, and daily patching duties.
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@jmoore said in Testing Zulip:
@scottalanmiller said in Testing Zulip:
The thing that I learned, and still apply today, is that there's no job beneath me. I do whatever is needed to make sure that the company runs smoothly - which is primarily making the team run like clockwork. Sure, I earn more than most of the team, but what makes me valuable enough to be paid that isn't that I'm normally doing some magical work that no one else could do or that I'm better or anything, it's that I magnify the people on the team to best effect.
This I greatly admire and wish my management did some of. We are very disconnected. Management doesn't know how I do things and when I try to talk about it i think her eyes glaze over lol. I'm by far the least paid person in the department but I can do the basic roles of all the other positions. I've helped with our erp, sql queries, php on the website with our web dev guy, gone over quotes for av installs because we were getting robbed, helped the secretary with mounds of paperwork when she came back from maternity leave, and of course my job which is functionally a desktop admin. None of my coworkers or management have ever tried to help me or tried to learn what it takes. For example we got 300 desktops and 70 new laptops in which is typical for a summer refresh. I do it all by myself every year. No one outside my supervisor knows how to image anything and he hasn't done it in 10 years I'm guessing. I move all imaged machines myself to labs and classrooms over 3 campuses which are in 3 different towns. I do all the software installs and app updates for all 3 campuses as well as general work tickets. I currently have 40 tickets between the 3 campuses which is about average I guess. It rarely gets much lower than that. Its not that I have to have help but it would just be nice if someone took an interest one day to at least know why I am always stressed every day balancing users tickets, hardware installs, and daily patching duties.
Yeah, I try very hard to know and know how to do every position in the company. I might not be good at it, but I can theoretically fill in anywhere. I lead and mentor every group. That's my primary job and value. I'm here to support the team. Or moreso, I'm here to mentor, train, & empower the management like @valentina to lead and manage.
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@scottalanmiller said in Testing Zulip:
@stacksofplates said in Testing Zulip:
There isn't a universe where having more helpdesk people to answer the phones makes less sense than the highest paid people in the company.
You know, I used to work in restaurants and our regional manager used to say essentially the same thing. He felt that the managers should manage, the workers should "do" and that you got your best results by keeping them separate, that if the manager wasn't always actively managing that they were wasted. They were, after all, paid more than any worker.
My shop always ignored this, for a few reasons. One, just the math showed that it didn't work. Not at a restaurant scale, anyway. And it missed a few key concepts, like that the manager managing but never doing was often lost and not able to manage well. And that it made the workers feel like "us vs them" and not like a team. It also meant that you needed more workers.
My team was the highest performance team in the franchise group, which was state wide (like sixty restaurants.) We eventually were used to go into other restaurants and save them when they were failing. Our secret?
I treated the workers like they were valuable, I did as much work as them (okay, not quite, they were just better than me, but I tried), they saw us as a team and knew we were there for each other, and we didn't staff the place with people who weren't doing anything. When things were slow, they cleaned and I did paperwork. When the rushes hit, I was in the trenches with them whenever needed, in any position needed. We weren't just faster, but we also had less waste, and less staffing cost. We were the highest profit margins.
I avoided micromanaging, and managed by leading instead of by instructing. The difference that it made was significant.
The thing that I learned, and still apply today, is that there's no job beneath me. I do whatever is needed to make sure that the company runs smoothly - which is primarily making the team run like clockwork. Sure, I earn more than most of the team, but what makes me valuable enough to be paid that isn't that I'm normally doing some magical work that no one else could do or that I'm better or anything, it's that I magnify the people on the team to best effect. As great as it would be to be spending every moment of the day closing million dollar deals, there just aren't that many deals to be closing. When those happen, yeah, that's where I focus. When those aren't happening, I look for strategic opportunity. When I'm not tied up with that, I lead by example. I'm in the trenches, shoulder to shoulder with the team(s) whether they are management, engineering, customer service, sales, finance, etc.
This is different. A: Different type of business. B: you were a local manager, not the CIO (which is what the website says but you said COO so whichever). This would be like Valentina taking calls directly with the team, not you.
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@scottalanmiller said in Testing Zulip:
Better than having them sit idle and not know what's going on in the company because they are so disconnected. At some point, those roles have to have jobs.
Yeah idk what this means. Their job is to drive the direction of the company. Sure in 5 person landscaping companies the "CEO" is doing some of the work. But if the company is as big as you are alluding to, the CEO should be driving the company forward and meeting with potential customers (if you guys don't have a sales team, I have no idea).
