Solved Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?
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@scottalanmiller said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
@openit said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
I don't want to go with Hyper-V as base
That why use Hyper-V at all? What's driving you to all that complexity and licensing headaches if it doesn't meet your needs?
There no licensing complexity - there is an assurance to NOT put anything on the host OS.
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@Dashrender said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
@scottalanmiller said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
@openit said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
I don't want to go with Hyper-V as base
That why use Hyper-V at all? What's driving you to all that complexity and licensing headaches if it doesn't meet your needs?
There no licensing complexity - there is an assurance to NOT put anything on the host OS.
There is ALWAYS licensing complexity.
First: That you have to manage which instances can and can't have anything installed.
Second: That you have to maintain the version of the underlying hypervisor to match the licensing of the VMs on top.This is a level of licensing complexity that screws shops constantly. It's enough for many IT shops to fall down on it. It means the obvious "keep things up to date" mentality breaks and you have to track licenses for something that shouldn't need a license.
That's not just complexity, it's problematic complexity that, in the real world, we see screwing companies constantly.
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@scottalanmiller said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
@Pete-S said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
SATA or SAS makes no difference at all but there are different classes of hard drives which may or may not be a good choice for your server.
It does. SATA doesn't have the advanced queueing of SAS which can change performance by as much as 20% with the same mechanicals.
That's old legacy info, not applicable to a huge fileserver and 3.5" drives. I mean it's true but it makes no difference.
Even back in the days I bet those "up to 20%" was a theoretical number when you had one 2.5" drive and no raid controller with cache. Which is basically never happens.
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@Pete-S said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
Even back in the days I bet those "up to 20%" was a theoretical number when you had one 2.5" drive and no raid controller with cache. Which is basically never happens.
Well as essentially no RAID controllers accept SATA drives, it's decently common even there. But it would be interesting to see on MD or ZFS what kind of numbers are seen. But those stats were from VMware, so presumably tested in RAID.
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@scottalanmiller said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
@Pete-S said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
Even back in the days I bet those "up to 20%" was a theoretical number when you had one 2.5" drive and no raid controller with cache. Which is basically never happens.
Well as essentially no RAID controllers accept SATA drives, it's decently common even there. But it would be interesting to see on MD or ZFS what kind of numbers are seen. But those stats were from VMware, so presumably tested in RAID.
That's a logical fallacy Scott. How could VMware do their test on RAID comparing SATA and SAS command queing performance when there are no RAID cards that accepts SATA?
Actually all raid cards I know support both SATA and SAS, for instance the Megaraid series from LSI/Broadcom that Dell, HP and everybody else rebrands.
It used to be that SATA drives were second rate citizens. It also used to be that SATA drives did a poor implementation of the command queing available with SATA aka NCQ because SATA was primarily a low cost drive for consumers.
But nowadays you can get the same high capacity enterprise drives with either SATA or SAS interface. And if you look at the stated performance on IOPS for random read/write operations you'll see that it's the same. On Exos 16 for instance it's 170/440.
On a file server it will be the file buffers in RAM on the guest OS/host and the RAID card cache that will have the largest impact. And SSD cache if it's available.
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@scottalanmiller said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
@Dashrender said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
@scottalanmiller said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
@openit said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
I don't want to go with Hyper-V as base
That why use Hyper-V at all? What's driving you to all that complexity and licensing headaches if it doesn't meet your needs?
There no licensing complexity - there is an assurance to NOT put anything on the host OS.
There is ALWAYS licensing complexity.
First: That you have to manage which instances can and can't have anything installed.
Second: That you have to maintain the version of the underlying hypervisor to match the licensing of the VMs on top.This is a level of licensing complexity that screws shops constantly. It's enough for many IT shops to fall down on it. It means the obvious "keep things up to date" mentality breaks and you have to track licenses for something that shouldn't need a license.
That's not just complexity, it's problematic complexity that, in the real world, we see screwing companies constantly.
What? Are you saying you can't run higher VM's on the old hypervisor? i.e. downgrade rights?
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@scottalanmiller said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
@Pete-S said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
Even back in the days I bet those "up to 20%" was a theoretical number when you had one 2.5" drive and no raid controller with cache. Which is basically never happens.
Well as essentially no RAID controllers accept SATA drives, it's decently common even there. But it would be interesting to see on MD or ZFS what kind of numbers are seen. But those stats were from VMware, so presumably tested in RAID.
really? My old VM host is all SATA drives on a RAID controller - RAID 10.
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@Dashrender said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
@scottalanmiller said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
@Pete-S said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
Even back in the days I bet those "up to 20%" was a theoretical number when you had one 2.5" drive and no raid controller with cache. Which is basically never happens.
Well as essentially no RAID controllers accept SATA drives, it's decently common even there. But it would be interesting to see on MD or ZFS what kind of numbers are seen. But those stats were from VMware, so presumably tested in RAID.
really? My old VM host is all SATA drives on a RAID controller - RAID 10.
Yeah I've got an old R710 with a card that accepts SATA.
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@Pete-S said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
How could VMware do their test on RAID comparing SATA and SAS command queing performance when there are no RAID cards that accepts SATA?
Interposers?
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@Pete-S I haven't come across a raid card that didn't work with sata drives.
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Aren't NL drives SATA drives with an enterprise connector? a SAS connector?
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@Dashrender said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
Aren't NL drives SATA drives with an enterprise connector? a SAS connector?
What was called nearline (NL) was usually the 3.5" drives with large capacity while the 2.5" drives where the ones with only SAS. But SSDs has killed the 2.5" 10K/15K drives so the only mechanical drives that makes sense are the high capacity (nearline) ones.
If you with "SATA drive" mean cheap consumer drive then the answer is no. Enterprise drives for capacity has always had low rate of bit error, high MTBF and long warranty and consumer drives never had that.
And the cloud has changed the market. Large drives are nowadays called hyperscale, datacenter, high capacity and similar. Some of those applications often don't use RAID and don't need dual port SAS so looking at both WD and Seagate, you'll see that almost all of their enterprise models are available in both SAS and SATA. Price is about the same so you pick what's suitable for your application.
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@Pete-S said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
And the cloud has changed the market.
MaybeNot
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@Obsolesce said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
@Pete-S said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
And the cloud has changed the market.
MaybeNot
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@Pete-S said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
@Dashrender said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
Aren't NL drives SATA drives with an enterprise connector? a SAS connector?
What was called nearline (NL) was usually the 3.5" drives with large capacity while the 2.5" drives where the ones with only SAS. But SSDs has killed the 2.5" 10K/15K drives so the only mechanical drives that makes sense are the high capacity (nearline) ones.
If you with "SATA drive" mean cheap consumer drive then the answer is no. Enterprise drives for capacity has always had low rate of bit error, high MTBF and long warranty and consumer drives never had that.
And the cloud has changed the market. Large drives are nowadays called hyperscale, datacenter, high capacity and similar. Some of those applications often don't use RAID and don't need dual port SAS so looking at both WD and Seagate, you'll see that almost all of their enterprise models are available in both SAS and SATA. Price is about the same so you pick what's suitable for your application.
Well, my server is old 8+ years, but it has NL-SATA in 2.5 in form factor.
ST9500530NS Seagate Constellation ST9500530NS 500GB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 2.5" Internal Enterprise-class Hard Drive Bare Drive -
@Dashrender said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
@scottalanmiller said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
@Dashrender said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
@scottalanmiller said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
@openit said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
I don't want to go with Hyper-V as base
That why use Hyper-V at all? What's driving you to all that complexity and licensing headaches if it doesn't meet your needs?
There no licensing complexity - there is an assurance to NOT put anything on the host OS.
There is ALWAYS licensing complexity.
First: That you have to manage which instances can and can't have anything installed.
Second: That you have to maintain the version of the underlying hypervisor to match the licensing of the VMs on top.This is a level of licensing complexity that screws shops constantly. It's enough for many IT shops to fall down on it. It means the obvious "keep things up to date" mentality breaks and you have to track licenses for something that shouldn't need a license.
That's not just complexity, it's problematic complexity that, in the real world, we see screwing companies constantly.
What? Are you saying you can't run higher VM's on the old hypervisor? i.e. downgrade rights?
I'm saying that you end up with a licensed, rather than free, copy of Hyper-V that you either have to pay to upgrade, or not upgrade. It's enough license complexity that you aren't even realizing all of the implications. That we have to dig in and explain just how complex it is, is just how complex it is!
So when a great new hypervisor release comes out, most any platform you'd be expected to update. But with Hyper-V deployed as a role, you have to license it and update that license. It's not free.
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@Dashrender said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
Aren't NL drives SATA drives with an enterprise connector? a SAS connector?
Did you just ask if SAS drives are SATA drives? Think about that statement.
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@Dashrender said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
Well, my server is old 8+ years, but it has NL-SATA in 2.5 in form factor.
NL-SAS is just a marketing term for 7200RPM SAS. SAS is still SAS.
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@scottalanmiller said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
@Dashrender said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
@scottalanmiller said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
@Dashrender said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
@scottalanmiller said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
@openit said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
I don't want to go with Hyper-V as base
That why use Hyper-V at all? What's driving you to all that complexity and licensing headaches if it doesn't meet your needs?
There no licensing complexity - there is an assurance to NOT put anything on the host OS.
There is ALWAYS licensing complexity.
First: That you have to manage which instances can and can't have anything installed.
Second: That you have to maintain the version of the underlying hypervisor to match the licensing of the VMs on top.This is a level of licensing complexity that screws shops constantly. It's enough for many IT shops to fall down on it. It means the obvious "keep things up to date" mentality breaks and you have to track licenses for something that shouldn't need a license.
That's not just complexity, it's problematic complexity that, in the real world, we see screwing companies constantly.
What? Are you saying you can't run higher VM's on the old hypervisor? i.e. downgrade rights?
I'm saying that you end up with a licensed, rather than free, copy of Hyper-V that you either have to pay to upgrade, or not upgrade. It's enough license complexity that you aren't even realizing all of the implications. That we have to dig in and explain just how complex it is, is just how complex it is!
So when a great new hypervisor release comes out, most any platform you'd be expected to update. But with Hyper-V deployed as a role, you have to license it and update that license. It's not free.
aww, yeah.. OK I get that.
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@scottalanmiller said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
@Dashrender said in Window server standard edition on Hyper V- means two Wins VMs ?:
Well, my server is old 8+ years, but it has NL-SATA in 2.5 in form factor.
NL-SAS is just a marketing term for 7200RPM SAS. SAS is still SAS.
According to the specs, my drives are SATA drives, not SAS. See the above post.
