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    Why is it called automation?

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved IT Business
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    • scottalanmillerS
      scottalanmiller @1337
      last edited by

      @Pete-S said in Why is it called automation?:

      If you enter what packages you want in a playbook and run a script it's not automation, it's just a script...

      "Just a script" would be "just another term for automation." All IT automation is "a script". Other than being compiled, scripts are the only possible means of automation.

      wirestyle22W 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • wirestyle22W
        wirestyle22 @scottalanmiller
        last edited by wirestyle22

        @scottalanmiller said in Why is it called automation?:

        @Pete-S said in Why is it called automation?:

        If you enter what packages you want in a playbook and run a script it's not automation, it's just a script...

        "Just a script" would be "just another term for automation." All IT automation is "a script". Other than being compiled, scripts are the only possible means of automation.

        Right. They are literally just a series of commands done in order. If you aren't running commands, what are you doing?

        DustinB3403D 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • DustinB3403D
          DustinB3403 @wirestyle22
          last edited by

          @wirestyle22 said in Why is it called automation?:

          @scottalanmiller said in Why is it called automation?:

          @Pete-S said in Why is it called automation?:

          If you enter what packages you want in a playbook and run a script it's not automation, it's just a script...

          "Just a script" would be "just another term for automation." All IT automation is "a script". Other than being compiled, scripts are the only possible means of automation.

          Right. They are literally just a series of commands done in order. If you aren't running commands, what are you doing?

          So you'd have to qualify using a GUI to install/setup whatever as automation.

          Just an FYI.

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          • 1
            1337
            last edited by 1337

            If we do the car analogy an automatic transmission will shift whenever it sees fit depending on input from the cars speed, how much the engine has to work, what you do with the gas pedal etc. A manual transmission requires you to shift gear when you see fit, using a clutch to disengage the engine from the drive train etc.

            If we had a button that activated a script that would shift gear on a manual transmission would this make it an automatic transmission? No, it would not. It would still be manual.

            But if we had written a script that would change gears when it wanted depending on certain criterias then we would have an automatic transmission. That script would have to run continuously.

            scottalanmillerS DustinB3403D 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • scottalanmillerS
              scottalanmiller @1337
              last edited by

              @Pete-S said in Why is it called automation?:

              If we do the car analogy an automatic transmission will shift whenever it sees fit depending on input from the cars speed, how much the engine has to work, what you do with the gas pedal etc. A manual transmission requires you to shift gear when you see fit, using a clutch to disengage the engine from the drive train etc.
              If we had a button that activated a script that would shift gear on a manual transmission would this make it an automatic transmission? No, it would not. It would still be manual.
              But if we had written a script that would change gears when it wanted depending on certain criterias then we would have an automatic transmission.

              So.... how is that unlike Salt, Ansible, etc.? Like an automatic transmission, once set up, it drives for you. Even steers. So your example seems to be showing how, since you don't need to press a button, it is automated.

              Also, automatic transmissions have overrides for when their automation isn't good enough.

              1 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • 1
                1337
                last edited by

                Likewise, in a factory that is fully automated thing will start and stop automatically. Things will happen automatically all the time. Not magically because there is obviously code behind it.

                If a person would have to press a button each time something has to happen it would not be an automated factory.

                JaredBuschJ DustinB3403D scottalanmillerS 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • JaredBuschJ
                  JaredBusch @1337
                  last edited by

                  @Pete-S said in Why is it called automation?:

                  Likewise, in a factory that is fully automated thing will start and stop automatically. Things will happen automatically all the time. Not magically because there is obviously code behind it.

                  If a person would have to press a button each time something has to happen it would not be an automated factory.

                  But it had to be setup to do so in the first place.

                  1 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • DustinB3403D
                    DustinB3403 @1337
                    last edited by

                    @Pete-S said in Why is it called automation?:

                    If we do the car analogy an automatic transmission will shift whenever it sees fit depending on input from the cars speed,

                    Based on input from the driver of the vehical, applying more or less pressure on the accelerator or brake.

                    So yeah, you're still telling the system "what you want it to do".

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                    • 1
                      1337 @scottalanmiller
                      last edited by

                      @scottalanmiller said in Why is it called automation?:

                      So.... how is that unlike Salt, Ansible, etc.? Like an automatic transmission, once set up, it drives for you. Even steers. So your example seems to be showing how, since you don't need to press a button, it is automated.

                      It's unlike the "automation" tools because they don't do anything by themselves.

                      scottalanmillerS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • DustinB3403D
                        DustinB3403 @1337
                        last edited by DustinB3403

                        @Pete-S said in Why is it called automation?:

                        Likewise, in a factory that is fully automated thing will start and stop automatically. Things will happen automatically all the time. Not magically because there is obviously code behind it.

                        If a person would have to press a button each time something has to happen it would not be an automated factory.

                        So if the factory isn't setup that a dump truck can't drive up and just unload a bunch of metal onto a magical belt and the factory can't sort it out it's not an automated factory?

                        Your logic here makes no sense.

                        Some intervention is always required, just like with your car analogy that proves you're very clearly wrong.

                        1 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • 1
                          1337 @DustinB3403
                          last edited by

                          @DustinB3403 said in Why is it called automation?:

                          @Pete-S said in Why is it called automation?:

                          Likewise, in a factory that is fully automated thing will start and stop automatically. Things will happen automatically all the time. Not magically because there is obviously code behind it.

                          If a person would have to press a button each time something has to happen it would not be an automated factory.

                          So if the factory isn't setup that a dump truck can't drive up and just unload a bunch of metal onto a magical belt and the factory can't sort it out it's not an automated factory?

                          Your logic here makes no sense.

                          Some intervention is always required, just like with your car analogy that proves your very clearly wrong.

                          Most factories have some manual processes yes. Those parts of the factory are then not automated. If it was fully automated the dump truck would have to be automated too.

                          DustinB3403D 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • DustinB3403D
                            DustinB3403 @1337
                            last edited by

                            @Pete-S said in Why is it called automation?:

                            @DustinB3403 said in Why is it called automation?:

                            @Pete-S said in Why is it called automation?:

                            Likewise, in a factory that is fully automated thing will start and stop automatically. Things will happen automatically all the time. Not magically because there is obviously code behind it.

                            If a person would have to press a button each time something has to happen it would not be an automated factory.

                            So if the factory isn't setup that a dump truck can't drive up and just unload a bunch of metal onto a magical belt and the factory can't sort it out it's not an automated factory?

                            Your logic here makes no sense.

                            Some intervention is always required, just like with your car analogy that proves your very clearly wrong.

                            Most factories have some manual processes yes. Those parts of the factory are then not automated. If it was fully automated the dump truck would have to be automated too.

                            So then you understand that in order to get a car to move, you have to build the engine in a manner in which the pistons can be moved, the spark plugs fire, the brakes and accelerator all work.

                            The same thing with something like salt or ansible, you have to build the car or factory, from there it'll do what it's programmed to do.

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                            • scottalanmillerS
                              scottalanmiller @1337
                              last edited by

                              @Pete-S said in Why is it called automation?:

                              Likewise, in a factory that is fully automated thing will start and stop automatically. Things will happen automatically all the time. Not magically because there is obviously code behind it.

                              If a person would have to press a button each time something has to happen it would not be an automated factory.

                              Right, but again, just like Ansible or Salt. You seem to be arguing that they are automation with each example.

                              And that factory is run by.... just a script. That's what does that automation there.

                              1 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • 1
                                1337 @JaredBusch
                                last edited by

                                @JaredBusch said in Why is it called automation?:

                                @Pete-S said in Why is it called automation?:

                                Likewise, in a factory that is fully automated thing will start and stop automatically. Things will happen automatically all the time. Not magically because there is obviously code behind it.

                                If a person would have to press a button each time something has to happen it would not be an automated factory.

                                But it had to be setup to do so in the first place.

                                Yes, true. That the job of automation engineers in that case.

                                An automated assembly line for instance would have robots working on it. Someone has to program them initially.

                                If it was humans working on the assembly line it would not be an automated assembly line.

                                B scottalanmillerS 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • scottalanmillerS
                                  scottalanmiller @1337
                                  last edited by

                                  @Pete-S said in Why is it called automation?:

                                  @scottalanmiller said in Why is it called automation?:

                                  So.... how is that unlike Salt, Ansible, etc.? Like an automatic transmission, once set up, it drives for you. Even steers. So your example seems to be showing how, since you don't need to press a button, it is automated.

                                  It's unlike the "automation" tools because they don't do anything by themselves.

                                  What? They do EVERYTHING by themselves. That's their purpose. What do you mean that they don't do anything? Everything you are describing - having them do all of the work without human input, is exactly what they are for. Anything else and you are misusing them.

                                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • B
                                    bnrstnr @1337
                                    last edited by

                                    @Pete-S said in Why is it called automation?:

                                    An automated assembly line for instance would have robots working on it. Someone has to program them initially.
                                    If it was humans working on the assembly line it would not be an automated assembly line.

                                    Even automated robots need to be put into mode by humans. They don't just up and move on their own whenever they want. Like @scottalanmiller said earlier, they would have to be sentient otherwise. All automated processes have to be started somehow.

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                                    • scottalanmillerS
                                      scottalanmiller @1337
                                      last edited by

                                      @Pete-S said in Why is it called automation?:

                                      @JaredBusch said in Why is it called automation?:

                                      @Pete-S said in Why is it called automation?:

                                      Likewise, in a factory that is fully automated thing will start and stop automatically. Things will happen automatically all the time. Not magically because there is obviously code behind it.

                                      If a person would have to press a button each time something has to happen it would not be an automated factory.

                                      But it had to be setup to do so in the first place.

                                      Yes, true. That the job of automation engineers in that case.

                                      An automated assembly line for instance would have robots working on it. Someone has to program them initially.

                                      If it was humans working on the assembly line it would not be an automated assembly line.

                                      Right, exactly like Salt or Ansible or Puppet. Set it and away it goes. You only need to get involved if you want to modify the automation.

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                                      • scottalanmillerS
                                        scottalanmiller
                                        last edited by scottalanmiller

                                        Okay, everyone hold up. The issue has to be that @Pete-S isn't understanding what these tools are and is thinking that they are remote access tools like MeshCental or ScreenConnect and isn't understanding that they are state engines which, by definition, are automation as there can be no human intervention in the state machine.

                                        So the discussion going on is going to go nowhere and just be an argument unless we address explaining that the underlying problem is that he's not trying to redefine automation, but doesn't know what Ansible and Salt are for.

                                        We are all trying to describe automation, but everyone agrees on what automation is. It's that Salt is automation is what is being missed.

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                                        • scottalanmillerS
                                          scottalanmiller
                                          last edited by

                                          So let's start with this... once SaltStack is set up, what does @Pete-S think that the role of a human would be?

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                                          • 1
                                            1337 @scottalanmiller
                                            last edited by

                                            @scottalanmiller said in Why is it called automation?:

                                            @Pete-S said in Why is it called automation?:

                                            Likewise, in a factory that is fully automated thing will start and stop automatically. Things will happen automatically all the time. Not magically because there is obviously code behind it.

                                            If a person would have to press a button each time something has to happen it would not be an automated factory.

                                            Right, but again, just like Ansible or Salt. You seem to be arguing that they are automation with each example.

                                            And that factory is run by.... just a script. That's what does that automation there.

                                            No, it's not the script per se that makes it automated. It's the behavior of the system.
                                            When you have set up ansible for instance you still don't have any automation anywhere. And you have nowhere to define automatic behaviors or responses.

                                            scottalanmillerS JaredBuschJ DustinB3403D 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
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