DD-WRT
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@Dashrender said in DD-WRT:
@scottalanmiller said in DD-WRT:
@DustinB3403 said in DD-WRT:
I'm genuinely trying to determine what you mean. What are third-world non-power users using if not the crap that comes pre-loaded?
I don't understand what he means either. I would argue that DD-WRT was solely created for power users (third-world, first, wherever) stuck (for whatever reason) with cheap consumer gear.
I'd argue that it's "anti-power user". That's my underlying point. If you start with DD-WRT not being for power users, then the rest of it is obvious and common sense. I'm not sure what more explanation is needed.
If you believe it is for power users, and don't understand that I don't, then I can see why you feel my position doesn't make sense.
Bottom line... I see DD-WRT as a toy for people to play with. Nothing wrong with that, not at all a power user tool.
So my question is - where is the line between power user and the next level up ? Heck, what do you call the next level up?
even better - make a listing of the levels of users for us.
It's pretty easy, I think. Power user is someone who edges towards business use or professional use, but doesn't qualify as those things. It's someone who is using things significantly more seriously than a casual or normal user, but either not yet to the level of a business or professional; or just because they want to act in that way.
Like a home user who installs things in a business way, would be a power user. Their behaviour of "being like a real business" makes them go up a "level", but because they are still a home user, can't be qualified as a business.
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@scottalanmiller said in DD-WRT:
@scottalanmiller said in DD-WRT:
I'd argue that it's "anti-power user". That's my underlying point. If you start with DD-WRT not being for power users, then the rest of it is obvious and common sense. I'm not sure what more explanation is needed.
If you believe it is for power users, and don't understand that I don't, then I can see why you feel my position doesn't make sense.
Bottom line... I see DD-WRT as a toy for people to play with. Nothing wrong with that, not at all a power user tool.I guess our definitions of power users aren't in line. I tend to agree with wikipedia on this one:
A power user or an experienced user is a computer user who uses advanced features of computer hardware,[1][2][3] operating systems,[4] programs,[5][6] or web sites[7] which are not used by the average user.DD-WRT certainly offers what me, and wikipedia, would call power-user features...
I simply don't agree. I don't believe that DD-WRT qualifies as more "advanced" by using it certainly can't qualify anyone as an "experienced user."
Wikipedia doesn't require "experience" when defining an "experienced user." I think we have to agree that the wikipedia definition isn't viable. It's a silly non-power user definition of what people who aren't power users imagine power users are doing. Rather than what power users or above would define. It sounds plausible on a casual read, but if you really look at it, it is, I feel, a pretty obviously useless definition.
Unless you REALLY work hard to say that advanced features mean very specific things that normal people would not think of.
A normal user won't setup their business with a VPN, service priorities etc. And if they can, their consumer POS may not offer it. So if they installed DD-WRT and set those things up on it, would you then consider that person as a power user?
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Example....
Hobbyiest: Installs DD-WRT at home because it is "cool."
Hobby Business: Installs DD-WRT at work because it is "cool" or they think they don't need entry point business approaches.
Power User: Installs UBNT ERL at home and treats it like a business.
Business: Installs UBNT ERL at work and treats it like a business. -
@DustinB3403 said in DD-WRT:
A normal user won't setup their business with a VPN, service priorities etc. And if they can, their consumer POS may not offer it. So if they installed DD-WRT and set those things up on it, would you then consider that person as a power user?
No, I'd consider them a hobbyist. I think I've been clear and consistent on that. Those aren't advanced features, they are basic features that not all equipment exposes, but many do. It's stuff that entry level toy equipment for gaming offers, so absolutely not power user in any way. Just because someone did it for cheaper doesn't make them a power user.
they would need to at least use advanced features that aren't considered consumer, and at least do it in a business behaving way for me to consider them a power user.
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@scottalanmiller said in DD-WRT:
Example....
Hobbyiest: Installs DD-WRT at home because it is "cool."
Hobby Business: Installs DD-WRT at work because it is "cool" or they think they don't need entry point business approaches.
Power User: Installs UBNT ERL at home and treats it like a business.
Business: Installs UBNT ERL at work and treats it like a business.You're missing one critical point there.
Business do often make decisions that cost them absolutely zero additional capital! ALL. OF. THE. TIME.
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@scottalanmiller said in DD-WRT:
Example....
Hobbyiest: Installs DD-WRT at home because it is "cool."
Hobby Business: Installs DD-WRT at work because it is "cool" or they think they don't need entry point business approaches.
Power User: Installs UBNT ERL at home and treats it like a business.
Business: Installs UBNT ERL at work and treats it like a business.This completely contradicts what you said above. Buying something and not implementing it's advanced features does NOT make you a power user. Simply buying an ERL does definitely NOT make you a power user. If I need to use something on the ERL that the consumer router can't do, that is what would make you a power user.
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@DustinB3403 said in DD-WRT:
@scottalanmiller said in DD-WRT:
Example....
Hobbyiest: Installs DD-WRT at home because it is "cool."
Hobby Business: Installs DD-WRT at work because it is "cool" or they think they don't need entry point business approaches.
Power User: Installs UBNT ERL at home and treats it like a business.
Business: Installs UBNT ERL at work and treats it like a business.You're missing one critical point there.
Business do often make decisions that cost them absolutely zero additional capital! ALL. OF. THE. TIME.
Yes, and I qualify those decisions and hobby decisions ALL OF THE TIME.
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@scottalanmiller said in DD-WRT:
@DustinB3403 said in DD-WRT:
A normal user won't setup their business with a VPN, service priorities etc. And if they can, their consumer POS may not offer it. So if they installed DD-WRT and set those things up on it, would you then consider that person as a power user?
No, I'd consider them a hobbyist. I think I've been clear and consistent on that. Those aren't advanced features, they are basic features that not all equipment exposes, but many do. It's stuff that entry level toy equipment for gaming offers, so absolutely not power user in any way. Just because someone did it for cheaper doesn't make them a power user.
they would need to at least use advanced features that aren't considered consumer, and at least do it in a business behaving way for me to consider them a power user.
So Scott's definition of Hobbyist is what the rest of us call a power user. OK - see Hobbyist, read power user - OK.. got it.
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@scottalanmiller said in DD-WRT:
Example....Hobbyiest: Installs DD-WRT at home because it is "cool."
Hobby Business: Installs DD-WRT at work because it is "cool" or they think they don't need entry point business approaches.
Power User: Installs UBNT ERL at home and treats it like a business.
Business: Installs UBNT ERL at work and treats it like a business.This completely contradicts what you said above. Buying something and not implementing it's advanced features does NOT make you a power user. Simply buying an ERL does definitely NOT make you a power user. If I need to use something on the ERL that the consumer router can't do, that is what would make you a power user.
I disagree. The ERL is an "advanced feature" itself in a business context here. No contradiction, it's exactly what I keep pointing out.
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@Dashrender said in DD-WRT:
@scottalanmiller said in DD-WRT:
@DustinB3403 said in DD-WRT:
A normal user won't setup their business with a VPN, service priorities etc. And if they can, their consumer POS may not offer it. So if they installed DD-WRT and set those things up on it, would you then consider that person as a power user?
No, I'd consider them a hobbyist. I think I've been clear and consistent on that. Those aren't advanced features, they are basic features that not all equipment exposes, but many do. It's stuff that entry level toy equipment for gaming offers, so absolutely not power user in any way. Just because someone did it for cheaper doesn't make them a power user.
they would need to at least use advanced features that aren't considered consumer, and at least do it in a business behaving way for me to consider them a power user.
So Scott's definition of Hobbyist is what the rest of us call a power user. OK - see Hobbyist, read power user - OK.. got it.
That's fine. Maybe that's how I see it. I see what you call a "power user" as a "normal user fooling around". Not a higher level in any IT or business context.
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@scottalanmiller said in DD-WRT:
@scottalanmiller said in DD-WRT:
Example....Hobbyiest: Installs DD-WRT at home because it is "cool."
Hobby Business: Installs DD-WRT at work because it is "cool" or they think they don't need entry point business approaches.
Power User: Installs UBNT ERL at home and treats it like a business.
Business: Installs UBNT ERL at work and treats it like a business.This completely contradicts what you said above. Buying something and not implementing it's advanced features does NOT make you a power user. Simply buying an ERL does definitely NOT make you a power user. If I need to use something on the ERL that the consumer router can't do, that is what would make you a power user.
I disagree. The ERL is an "advanced feature" itself in a business context here. No contradiction, it's exactly what I keep pointing out.
Buying or choosing a solution does not qualify you as a Power User or above just because you "picked something that Scott agrees with."
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So, by your definitions, DD-WRT is garbage that has no place in business BECAUSE power users have no place in business. That's the difference. I see power users as people edging towards serious use. You see them as people fooling around.
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There haven't been any updates to that project in a long while. I'm pretty sure that project is about dead. If you just want to hold on to that old equipment, might want to check out either Tomato or OpenWRT. Otherwise, I would definitely suggest Ubiquiti.
The 2.4 / stable is dead but there's a fresh build almost at least once a week in the beta channel.
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@DustinB3403 said in DD-WRT:
@scottalanmiller said in DD-WRT:
@scottalanmiller said in DD-WRT:
Example....Hobbyiest: Installs DD-WRT at home because it is "cool."
Hobby Business: Installs DD-WRT at work because it is "cool" or they think they don't need entry point business approaches.
Power User: Installs UBNT ERL at home and treats it like a business.
Business: Installs UBNT ERL at work and treats it like a business.This completely contradicts what you said above. Buying something and not implementing it's advanced features does NOT make you a power user. Simply buying an ERL does definitely NOT make you a power user. If I need to use something on the ERL that the consumer router can't do, that is what would make you a power user.
I disagree. The ERL is an "advanced feature" itself in a business context here. No contradiction, it's exactly what I keep pointing out.
Buying or choosing a solution does not qualify you as a Power User or above just because you "picked something that Scott agrees with."
It does in the IT and business worlds, which is what we are discussing.
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@scottalanmiller said in DD-WRT:
If "features" are how you define power user, then I agree, DD-WRT is for power users and I'd define power users as a pointless definition that has a terrible name implying that they are heavier or more serious users, because features and more serious users don't go together.
So if my POS consumer router firmware doesn't allow me to forward ports, but DD-WRT unlocks this, it wouldn't be a power user feature?
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@scottalanmiller said in DD-WRT:
@Dashrender said in DD-WRT:
@scottalanmiller said in DD-WRT:
@DustinB3403 said in DD-WRT:
A normal user won't setup their business with a VPN, service priorities etc. And if they can, their consumer POS may not offer it. So if they installed DD-WRT and set those things up on it, would you then consider that person as a power user?
No, I'd consider them a hobbyist. I think I've been clear and consistent on that. Those aren't advanced features, they are basic features that not all equipment exposes, but many do. It's stuff that entry level toy equipment for gaming offers, so absolutely not power user in any way. Just because someone did it for cheaper doesn't make them a power user.
they would need to at least use advanced features that aren't considered consumer, and at least do it in a business behaving way for me to consider them a power user.
So Scott's definition of Hobbyist is what the rest of us call a power user. OK - see Hobbyist, read power user - OK.. got it.
That's fine. Maybe that's how I see it. I see what you call a "power user" as a "normal user fooling around". Not a higher level in any IT or business context.
Then you leave no room for a normal user who doesn't fool around - and I believe that we need that distinction.
Scott's list
consumer - won't do anything other than buy form best buy
Hobbyist - will install DD-WRT on Best Buy junk
Power User - will install business class hardware at home
IT Pro - installs business class hardware at workme personally - a power user merges hobbyist and Scott's Power user def.
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Vendor and product selection and uses are one of the most important and fundamental aspects of IT and business. Hence why "advanced" behaviour there is what I call a power user.
Not just some kid playing with settings or being goofy. I think you guys are seeing the bench aspects of this and looking at networking and IT like someone might look at video gamers who build really nice gaming rigs. That might be power user in a bench or video game context but not an IT one.
If you look at routers as a gaming rig, then sure. But if you look at them in an IT context, then clearly not.
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@scottalanmiller said in DD-WRT:
Vendor and product selection and uses are one of the most important and fundamental aspects of IT and business. Hence why "advanced" behaviour there is what I call a power user.
Not just some kid playing with settings or being goofy. I think you guys are seeing the bench aspects of this and looking at networking and IT like someone might look at video gamers who build really nice gaming rigs. That might be power user in a bench or video game context but not an IT one.
If you look at routers as a gaming rig, then sure. But if you look at them in an IT context, then clearly not.
Well - I'll have to give Scott this one - What we buy and why we buy it is one of the fundamental things that make a person an IT Pro.
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@scottalanmiller said in DD-WRT:
If "features" are how you define power user, then I agree, DD-WRT is for power users and I'd define power users as a pointless definition that has a terrible name implying that they are heavier or more serious users, because features and more serious users don't go together.
So if my POS consumer router firmware doesn't allow me to forward ports, but DD-WRT unlocks this, it wouldn't be a power user feature?
Absolutely not. It just makes it a "better consumer product."
Just because some consumer gear is really bad, and some not so bad, doesn't mean that finding a way to make really bad stuff not so bad makes you a power user. It's still consumer features and gear in the end.
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@Dashrender said in DD-WRT:
@scottalanmiller said in DD-WRT:
@Dashrender said in DD-WRT:
@scottalanmiller said in DD-WRT:
@DustinB3403 said in DD-WRT:
A normal user won't setup their business with a VPN, service priorities etc. And if they can, their consumer POS may not offer it. So if they installed DD-WRT and set those things up on it, would you then consider that person as a power user?
No, I'd consider them a hobbyist. I think I've been clear and consistent on that. Those aren't advanced features, they are basic features that not all equipment exposes, but many do. It's stuff that entry level toy equipment for gaming offers, so absolutely not power user in any way. Just because someone did it for cheaper doesn't make them a power user.
they would need to at least use advanced features that aren't considered consumer, and at least do it in a business behaving way for me to consider them a power user.
So Scott's definition of Hobbyist is what the rest of us call a power user. OK - see Hobbyist, read power user - OK.. got it.
That's fine. Maybe that's how I see it. I see what you call a "power user" as a "normal user fooling around". Not a higher level in any IT or business context.
Then you leave no room for a normal user who doesn't fool around - and I believe that we need that distinction.
Scott's list
consumer - won't do anything other than buy form best buy
Hobbyist - will install DD-WRT on Best Buy junk
Power User - will install business class hardware at home
IT Pro - installs business class hardware at workme personally - a power user merges hobbyist and Scott's Power user def.
Hobbyist and consumer are the same to me, a category that doesn't matter to IT.
