Adding tape drive



  • @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    between the raid 6 option and the raid 10 option, both will cover my storage needs just fine. But I want to be able to backup quickly and restore quickly, with the later being my priority. That is why I had thought raid 10 was the way to go, and it still might be.

    If the backup repository is over the network, it doesn't matter how fast your storage array is. The maximum data you'll be able to pull from your backup will be 50-110 MB/s over a regular network in this type of setup.

    [[storage] + [backup server]] --> Network --> [restore location/server]



  • @Obsolesce said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    between the raid 6 option and the raid 10 option, both will cover my storage needs just fine. But I want to be able to backup quickly and restore quickly, with the later being my priority. That is why I had thought raid 10 was the way to go, and it still might be.

    If the backup repository is over the network, it doesn't matter how fast your storage array is. The maximum data you'll be able to pull from your backup will be 50-110 MB/s over a regular network in this type of setup.

    [[storage] + [backup server]] --> Network --> [restore location/server]

    10Gb/s, but still it'll saturate everything else before that array.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    between the raid 6 option and the raid 10 option, both will cover my storage needs just fine. But I want to be able to backup quickly and restore quickly, with the later being my priority. That is why I had thought raid 10 was the way to go, and it still might be.

    Not really, speed doesn't vary in a meaningful way to you. What factor do you feel is driving you to RAID 10?

    you shouting from the mountain tops that OBR10 is the gold standard.



  • @Obsolesce said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    between the raid 6 option and the raid 10 option, both will cover my storage needs just fine. But I want to be able to backup quickly and restore quickly, with the later being my priority. That is why I had thought raid 10 was the way to go, and it still might be.

    If the backup repository is over the network, it doesn't matter how fast your storage array is. The maximum data you'll be able to pull from your backup will be 50-110 MB/s over a regular network in this type of setup.

    [[storage] + [backup server]] --> Network --> [restore location/server]

    the backup server will have onboard storage, but will be backing up from and restoring to a 10G network.



  • @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    @scottalanmiller said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    between the raid 6 option and the raid 10 option, both will cover my storage needs just fine. But I want to be able to backup quickly and restore quickly, with the later being my priority. That is why I had thought raid 10 was the way to go, and it still might be.

    Not really, speed doesn't vary in a meaningful way to you. What factor do you feel is driving you to RAID 10?

    you shouting from the mountain tops that OBR10 is the gold standard.

    No, it's the starting point and safe fallback for spinners. I never stated anything more than that.



  • @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    @Obsolesce said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    between the raid 6 option and the raid 10 option, both will cover my storage needs just fine. But I want to be able to backup quickly and restore quickly, with the later being my priority. That is why I had thought raid 10 was the way to go, and it still might be.

    If the backup repository is over the network, it doesn't matter how fast your storage array is. The maximum data you'll be able to pull from your backup will be 50-110 MB/s over a regular network in this type of setup.

    [[storage] + [backup server]] --> Network --> [restore location/server]

    the backup server will have onboard storage, but will be backing up from and restoring to a 10G network.

    Right, so very likely the speed of the backup system's drives and networking will be the bottleneck.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    @Obsolesce said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    between the raid 6 option and the raid 10 option, both will cover my storage needs just fine. But I want to be able to backup quickly and restore quickly, with the later being my priority. That is why I had thought raid 10 was the way to go, and it still might be.

    If the backup repository is over the network, it doesn't matter how fast your storage array is. The maximum data you'll be able to pull from your backup will be 50-110 MB/s over a regular network in this type of setup.

    [[storage] + [backup server]] --> Network --> [restore location/server]

    the backup server will have onboard storage, but will be backing up from and restoring to a 10G network.

    Right, so very likely the speed of the backup system's drives and networking will be the bottleneck.

    Specifically the drives themselves, and not the array?



  • @scottalanmiller said in Adding tape drive:

    @Obsolesce said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    between the raid 6 option and the raid 10 option, both will cover my storage needs just fine. But I want to be able to backup quickly and restore quickly, with the later being my priority. That is why I had thought raid 10 was the way to go, and it still might be.

    If the backup repository is over the network, it doesn't matter how fast your storage array is. The maximum data you'll be able to pull from your backup will be 50-110 MB/s over a regular network in this type of setup.

    [[storage] + [backup server]] --> Network --> [restore location/server]

    10Gb/s, but still it'll saturate everything else before that array.

    Oh didn't see it was 10GB. But yeah, IOPS matters more for internal storage processing... like busy databases, a bunch of running VMs on the same storage array, etc. Not for pulling/retrieving large files.



  • @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    @scottalanmiller said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    @Obsolesce said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    between the raid 6 option and the raid 10 option, both will cover my storage needs just fine. But I want to be able to backup quickly and restore quickly, with the later being my priority. That is why I had thought raid 10 was the way to go, and it still might be.

    If the backup repository is over the network, it doesn't matter how fast your storage array is. The maximum data you'll be able to pull from your backup will be 50-110 MB/s over a regular network in this type of setup.

    [[storage] + [backup server]] --> Network --> [restore location/server]

    the backup server will have onboard storage, but will be backing up from and restoring to a 10G network.

    Right, so very likely the speed of the backup system's drives and networking will be the bottleneck.

    Specifically the drives themselves, and not the array?

    Everything will be a factor.



  • ok, If I understand this, Scott's championing OBR10 as the starting point for a production load, but it may not be the starting point, or in this case the end point on a backup storage, especially if IOPS are not the primary concern? All this seems like just doing 7 drives in raid 6 and using the tape drive on the extra channel is the right way to go.

    Its very easy for someone like me to read some of the stuff that Scott has written as "the most prolific raid author in history" as authoritative and think of it as the gold standard.

    https://community.spiceworks.com/storage/articles/2801-one-big-raid-10-the-new-standard-in-server-storage



  • @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    ok, If I understand this, Scott's championing OBR10 as the starting point for a production load, but it may not be the starting point, or in this case the end point on a backup storage, especially if IOPS are not the primary concern? All this seems like just doing 7 drives in raid 6 and using the tape drive on the extra channel is the right way to go.

    Its very easy for someone like me to read some of the stuff that Scott has written as "the most prolific raid author in history" as authoritative and think of it as the gold standard.

    https://community.spiceworks.com/storage/articles/2801-one-big-raid-10-the-new-standard-in-server-storage

    OBR10 for spinning rust as "a safe starting point", before any considerations or environmental factors.



  • @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    ok, If I understand this, Scott's championing OBR10 as the starting point for a production load...

    OBR10 when using spinners, as a starting point for decision making. No RAID should be chosen without clear planning, every situation is unique. But if you can't find something that mathematically is clearly better for you when using spinners, you fail to OBR10 because it is the safest and fastest and without clear financial benefit, you don't want something else.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    ok, If I understand this, Scott's championing OBR10 as the starting point for a production load...

    OBR10 when using spinners, as a starting point for decision making. No RAID should be chosen without clear planning, every situation is unique. But if you can't find something that mathematically is clearly better for you when using spinners, you fail to OBR10 because it is the safest and fastest and without clear financial benefit, you don't want something else.

    I interpret all that as OBR10 = gold standard, or as you would put it, "best practice". I have probably been guilty of over simplifying for the sake of laziness efficiency.



  • @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    @scottalanmiller said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    ok, If I understand this, Scott's championing OBR10 as the starting point for a production load...

    OBR10 when using spinners, as a starting point for decision making. No RAID should be chosen without clear planning, every situation is unique. But if you can't find something that mathematically is clearly better for you when using spinners, you fail to OBR10 because it is the safest and fastest and without clear financial benefit, you don't want something else.

    I interpret all that as OBR10 = gold standard, or as you would put it, "best practice". I have probably been guilty of over simplifying for the sake of laziness efficiency.

    Right, a lot of people have repeated "starting point" as "best practice" which are wholly different things. A BP means you have no discussion, there is only one way to do it. Starting point means the opposite, there is no BP and no given answer, you have to figure it out.

    Think of it as a starting point for choosing a car. "Well, you should look at the dealer nearest your home first, since you know it is conveniently located and you have nothing else to go on before test driving some different cars." Buying whatever car is closest to your home is hardly a best practice, but it is a reasonable way to start a process of test driving different models.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    @scottalanmiller said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    ok, If I understand this, Scott's championing OBR10 as the starting point for a production load...

    OBR10 when using spinners, as a starting point for decision making. No RAID should be chosen without clear planning, every situation is unique. But if you can't find something that mathematically is clearly better for you when using spinners, you fail to OBR10 because it is the safest and fastest and without clear financial benefit, you don't want something else.

    I interpret all that as OBR10 = gold standard, or as you would put it, "best practice". I have probably been guilty of over simplifying for the sake of laziness efficiency.

    Right, a lot of people have repeated "starting point" as "best practice" which are wholly different things. A BP means you have no discussion, there is only one way to do it. Starting point means the opposite, there is no BP and no given answer, you have to figure it out.

    Think of it as a starting point for choosing a car. "Well, you should look at the dealer nearest your home first, since you know it is conveniently located and you have nothing else to go on before test driving some different cars." Buying whatever car is closest to your home is hardly a best practice, but it is a reasonable way to start a process of test driving different models.

    I loosely define "standard" to mean the same thing that you say when you say "best practice". I would call "starting point" the same as "default"



  • @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    @scottalanmiller said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    @scottalanmiller said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    ok, If I understand this, Scott's championing OBR10 as the starting point for a production load...

    OBR10 when using spinners, as a starting point for decision making. No RAID should be chosen without clear planning, every situation is unique. But if you can't find something that mathematically is clearly better for you when using spinners, you fail to OBR10 because it is the safest and fastest and without clear financial benefit, you don't want something else.

    I interpret all that as OBR10 = gold standard, or as you would put it, "best practice". I have probably been guilty of over simplifying for the sake of laziness efficiency.

    Right, a lot of people have repeated "starting point" as "best practice" which are wholly different things. A BP means you have no discussion, there is only one way to do it. Starting point means the opposite, there is no BP and no given answer, you have to figure it out.

    Think of it as a starting point for choosing a car. "Well, you should look at the dealer nearest your home first, since you know it is conveniently located and you have nothing else to go on before test driving some different cars." Buying whatever car is closest to your home is hardly a best practice, but it is a reasonable way to start a process of test driving different models.

    I loosely define "standard" to mean the same thing that you say when you say "best practice". I would call "starting point" the same as "default"

    I wouldn't generally. Gold standard implies it is better. Starting point doesn't, it implies that it is a proper place to begin to encourage good decision making. Gold standard implies that if you deviate, you get something inferior. Starting point does not.

    Example, which sounds weird...

    Manager: "John, I hear you didn't use the gold standard for our industry, explain yourself?"

    or...

    Manager: "John, I hear you didn't just go with the starting point option for our industry, explain yourself?"

    One is a criticism, one is a praise.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    @scottalanmiller said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    @scottalanmiller said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    ok, If I understand this, Scott's championing OBR10 as the starting point for a production load...

    OBR10 when using spinners, as a starting point for decision making. No RAID should be chosen without clear planning, every situation is unique. But if you can't find something that mathematically is clearly better for you when using spinners, you fail to OBR10 because it is the safest and fastest and without clear financial benefit, you don't want something else.

    I interpret all that as OBR10 = gold standard, or as you would put it, "best practice". I have probably been guilty of over simplifying for the sake of laziness efficiency.

    Right, a lot of people have repeated "starting point" as "best practice" which are wholly different things. A BP means you have no discussion, there is only one way to do it. Starting point means the opposite, there is no BP and no given answer, you have to figure it out.

    Think of it as a starting point for choosing a car. "Well, you should look at the dealer nearest your home first, since you know it is conveniently located and you have nothing else to go on before test driving some different cars." Buying whatever car is closest to your home is hardly a best practice, but it is a reasonable way to start a process of test driving different models.

    I loosely define "standard" to mean the same thing that you say when you say "best practice". I would call "starting point" the same as "default"

    I wouldn't generally. Gold standard implies it is better. Starting point doesn't, it implies that it is a proper place to begin to encourage good decision making. Gold standard implies that if you deviate, you get something inferior. Starting point does not.

    Example, which sounds weird...

    Manager: "John, I hear you didn't use the gold standard for our industry, explain yourself?"

    or...

    Manager: "John, I hear you didn't just go with the starting point option for our industry, explain yourself?"

    One is a criticism, one is a praise.

    I tend to agree with Scott - Gold standard definitely seems more like best practice - it's not mind you, but feels more like it... i.e. why aren't you using it?

    Starting point is important because it really tells you - Hey this is a decision I have to make. I can't (shouldn't) just pick this and go - i should fully understand this and other options and be ready to defend why I am using this solution.



  • The reason that we use "starting point" as OBR10 is because a few reasons...

    1. With spinners it is the "most commonly correct choice". So if you were to randomly throw the dart, it's the choice most likely to be hit correctly.
    2. If you mess up and choose the wrong RAID level, OBR10 is at least a reasonable and safe fallback. When wrong, it's not so wrong. Meaning, the risks of choosing OBR10 when, say, OBR6 is better for you, is minor. But choosing OBR5 when OBR10 is best for you could be a disaster. The only risks to OBR10 are about overspending up front. Whereas the risks to OBR5 could be losing tonnes of critical data.


  • @scottalanmiller said in Adding tape drive:

    The reason that we use "starting point" as OBR10 is because a few reasons...

    1. With spinners it is the "most commonly correct choice". So if you were to randomly throw the dart, it's the choice most likely to be hit correctly.
    2. If you mess up and choose the wrong RAID level, OBR10 is at least a reasonable and safe fallback. When wrong, it's not so wrong. Meaning, the risks of choosing OBR10 when, say, OBR6 is better for you, is minor. But choosing OBR5 when OBR10 is best for you could be a disaster. The only risks to OBR10 are about overspending up front. Whereas the risks to OBR5 could be losing tonnes of critical data.

    tonnes? how much does data weigh?



  • is this a good drive?

    Also, If I am considering the cloud as an option, what is the prefered way to get backups into the cloud? it seems like VTL is one way to go, but I can't tell if that is appropriate for my situation because I have zero existing tape infrastructure. I can do something like copy to a synology, and then just sync that with backblaze. Thoughts?



  • @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    is this a good drive?

    Also, If I am considering the cloud as an option, what is the prefered way to get backups into the cloud? it seems like VTL is one way to go, but I can't tell if that is appropriate for my situation because I have zero existing tape infrastructure. I can do something like copy to a synology, and then just sync that with backblaze. Thoughts?

    VTL doesn't get you to a cloud store, it just makes a cloud store look like tape when your backup won't talk to cloud.





  • @scottalanmiller said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    is this a good drive?

    Also, If I am considering the cloud as an option, what is the prefered way to get backups into the cloud? it seems like VTL is one way to go, but I can't tell if that is appropriate for my situation because I have zero existing tape infrastructure. I can do something like copy to a synology, and then just sync that with backblaze. Thoughts?

    VTL doesn't get you to a cloud store, it just makes a cloud store look like tape when your backup won't talk to cloud.

    It seems like a common middle man to get veeam -> to cloud. Thats why I want to know if it is something I should look into or not.



  • @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    @scottalanmiller said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    is this a good drive?

    Also, If I am considering the cloud as an option, what is the prefered way to get backups into the cloud? it seems like VTL is one way to go, but I can't tell if that is appropriate for my situation because I have zero existing tape infrastructure. I can do something like copy to a synology, and then just sync that with backblaze. Thoughts?

    VTL doesn't get you to a cloud store, it just makes a cloud store look like tape when your backup won't talk to cloud.

    It seems like a common middle man to get veeam -> to cloud. Thats why I want to know if it is something I should look into or not.

    yes, specifically for Veeam going to unsupported cloud, it will act as a middle man.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    @scottalanmiller said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    is this a good drive?

    Also, If I am considering the cloud as an option, what is the prefered way to get backups into the cloud? it seems like VTL is one way to go, but I can't tell if that is appropriate for my situation because I have zero existing tape infrastructure. I can do something like copy to a synology, and then just sync that with backblaze. Thoughts?

    VTL doesn't get you to a cloud store, it just makes a cloud store look like tape when your backup won't talk to cloud.

    It seems like a common middle man to get veeam -> to cloud. Thats why I want to know if it is something I should look into or not.

    yes, specifically for Veeam going to unsupported cloud, it will act as a middle man.

    is it better to go straight to one of veeam's cloud partners?



  • @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    @scottalanmiller said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    @scottalanmiller said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    is this a good drive?

    Also, If I am considering the cloud as an option, what is the prefered way to get backups into the cloud? it seems like VTL is one way to go, but I can't tell if that is appropriate for my situation because I have zero existing tape infrastructure. I can do something like copy to a synology, and then just sync that with backblaze. Thoughts?

    VTL doesn't get you to a cloud store, it just makes a cloud store look like tape when your backup won't talk to cloud.

    It seems like a common middle man to get veeam -> to cloud. Thats why I want to know if it is something I should look into or not.

    yes, specifically for Veeam going to unsupported cloud, it will act as a middle man.

    is it better to go straight to one of veeam's cloud partners?

    Tape is way faster and cheaper than "cloud backup" stuff. You'd be better off buying the cheap Amazon archive storage tier and just long term archiving your raw tape back up files to it periodically. Of course ymmv, but in my case it made no sense.



  • @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    @scottalanmiller said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    @scottalanmiller said in Adding tape drive:

    @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    is this a good drive?

    Also, If I am considering the cloud as an option, what is the prefered way to get backups into the cloud? it seems like VTL is one way to go, but I can't tell if that is appropriate for my situation because I have zero existing tape infrastructure. I can do something like copy to a synology, and then just sync that with backblaze. Thoughts?

    VTL doesn't get you to a cloud store, it just makes a cloud store look like tape when your backup won't talk to cloud.

    It seems like a common middle man to get veeam -> to cloud. Thats why I want to know if it is something I should look into or not.

    yes, specifically for Veeam going to unsupported cloud, it will act as a middle man.

    is it better to go straight to one of veeam's cloud partners?

    No, it's just important to keep in mind that VTL as a middle man only makes sense in certain scenarios, not as a starting point, unless you want to mimic tape.



  • at this point, I would have to get management buy in to really consider cloud, I want to evaluate the options before hand to know how much I should or shouldn't be pushing for the cloud. Recent conversations with @scottalanmiller have me questioning our historical reasons and motivations for why we use what we use. In my case, we have a mix of prior misinformed speculation and my limited personal experience.

    I don't see a reason to emulate tape if I'm not going to use tape, but I really don't know



  • @Donahue said in Adding tape drive:

    at this point, I would have to get management buy in to really consider cloud, I want to evaluate the options before hand to know how much I should or shouldn't be pushing for the cloud. Recent conversations with @scottalanmiller have me questioning our historical reasons and motivations for why we use what we use. In my case, we have a mix of prior misinformed speculation and my limited personal experience.

    I don't see a reason to emulate tape if I'm not going to use tape, but I really don't know

    Well if you use tape, then no reason to emulate.