If not A+, then where should someone start?
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@tim_g said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
If a given job description lists a set of specific job requirements, and an applicant's CV does not show it meets some or all job requirements, then it's anyone's guess as to whether or not the applicant would be considered.
Not really, in the real world we know that people are hiring without requirements all of the time. What is known is that when talking to real people, real companies, and HR firms that deal with loads of both, that it is so unthinkable that it's assumed to not exist. You can prove that this widely doesn't happen.
that it happens sometimes, while likely, can't be proven and is just a theory that people repeat, a lot. But there is little foundation for the theory. that doesn't make it wrong, but we can easily demonstrate that it widely does not happen. How often it happens, if ever, can't be proven. But there are super obvious and well known reasons why companies claim it happens when it doesn't to avoid legal problems.
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@tim_g said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
It's also anyone's guess as to why the applicant was not considered, but it's also logical to assume that an unmet requirement is a likely reason to decline an applicant.
It's reasonable, but not likely. If you examine the process, a useless requirement is not a likely reason for that to be the case. Overall not being a good candidate is far more likely. That a simple requirement not being bet would turn away and otherwise ideal candidate makes some pretty shocking assumptions about companies and the people who hire people that just aren't reasonable. People are simply not that stupid or malicious.
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If every employer you have ever known that lists job requirements doesn't care whether or not applicants meet any of the job requirements... then why list requirements at all?
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@tim_g said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
If every employer you have ever known that lists job requirements doesn't care whether or not applicants meet any of the job requirements... then why list requirements at all?
To filter out people who emotionally feel less confident about their abilities.
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If you owned a computer repair business, would you look over each of the hundreds of applications closely enough to notice someone who is qualified enough that doesn't list an A+ cert?
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@tim_g said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
If you owned a computer repair business, would you look over each of the hundreds of applications closely enough to notice someone who is qualified enough that doesn't list an A+ cert?
I don't think the point is to find the people without the cert(s). The goal is to simply eliminate candidates, because there is literally an ocean of candidates for any given position.
By putting random requirements does the pool get a tiny bit smaller.
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@dustinb3403 said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@tim_g said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
If you owned a computer repair business, would you look over each of the hundreds of applications closely enough to notice someone who is qualified enough that doesn't list an A+ cert?
I don't think the point is to find the people without the cert(s). The goal is to simply eliminate candidates, because there is literally an ocean of candidates for any given position.
By putting random requirements does the pool get a tiny bit smaller.
I wouldn't list job requirements that aren't really requirements. I just assumed that's how it worked. But apparently in the real world, fake requirements are listed for no reason, and everyone should apply to any job they want even if they don't meet any of the requirements.
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@tim_g said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@dustinb3403 said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@tim_g said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
If you owned a computer repair business, would you look over each of the hundreds of applications closely enough to notice someone who is qualified enough that doesn't list an A+ cert?
I don't think the point is to find the people without the cert(s). The goal is to simply eliminate candidates, because there is literally an ocean of candidates for any given position.
By putting random requirements does the pool get a tiny bit smaller.
I wouldn't list job requirements that aren't really requirements. I just assumed that's how it worked. But apparently in the real world, fake requirements are listed for no reason, and everyone should apply to any job they want even if they don't meet any of the requirements.
I wouldn't say the requirements are fake, I would say they are listed to eliminate candidates from the pool. Regardless if it is hurting the business because the people that they are hiring are way over qualified (or under) for the position.
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@tim_g said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@dustinb3403 said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@tim_g said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
If you owned a computer repair business, would you look over each of the hundreds of applications closely enough to notice someone who is qualified enough that doesn't list an A+ cert?
I don't think the point is to find the people without the cert(s). The goal is to simply eliminate candidates, because there is literally an ocean of candidates for any given position.
By putting random requirements does the pool get a tiny bit smaller.
I wouldn't list job requirements that aren't really requirements.
Shouldn't, but it's the industry standard. It's generally understood that nothing is a strict requirement, so the entire concept of requirements are just a general picture of what someone should be like.
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@dustinb3403 said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@tim_g said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@dustinb3403 said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@tim_g said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
If you owned a computer repair business, would you look over each of the hundreds of applications closely enough to notice someone who is qualified enough that doesn't list an A+ cert?
I don't think the point is to find the people without the cert(s). The goal is to simply eliminate candidates, because there is literally an ocean of candidates for any given position.
By putting random requirements does the pool get a tiny bit smaller.
I wouldn't list job requirements that aren't really requirements. I just assumed that's how it worked. But apparently in the real world, fake requirements are listed for no reason, and everyone should apply to any job they want even if they don't meet any of the requirements.
I wouldn't say the requirements are fake, I would say they are listed to eliminate candidates from the pool.
Well either they are fake and are just a guideline, or they eliminate good people and often the best people. So fake or counter productive are the options.
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@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@dustinb3403 said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@tim_g said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@dustinb3403 said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@tim_g said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
If you owned a computer repair business, would you look over each of the hundreds of applications closely enough to notice someone who is qualified enough that doesn't list an A+ cert?
I don't think the point is to find the people without the cert(s). The goal is to simply eliminate candidates, because there is literally an ocean of candidates for any given position.
By putting random requirements does the pool get a tiny bit smaller.
I wouldn't list job requirements that aren't really requirements. I just assumed that's how it worked. But apparently in the real world, fake requirements are listed for no reason, and everyone should apply to any job they want even if they don't meet any of the requirements.
I wouldn't say the requirements are fake, I would say they are listed to eliminate candidates from the pool.
Well either they are fake and are just a guideline, or they eliminate good people and often the best people. So fake or counter productive are the options.
That was my point, they are there to just to sound fancy, very few jobs (especially day 1 jobs) would have such a requirement.
Or if they do, they are there because the person who posted the job wants to eliminate candidates from the pool and only bring in people who have some critical thinking skill.
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@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
The problem with any cert is that it takes time and money. Time and money that could be used to get experience, job hunt, get a different cert, etc. There is a cost of lost opportunity with any cert process. The A+ is quite expensive and lengthy to get, making it extra problematic for people who shouldn't need it. It is also entry level, so if it does affect you, it tends to affect you only right at the beginning of your career and less and less after that until, quite quickly, it drops to zero.
This exactly!
My buddy is a restaurant manager and works 60 hour weeks. He wants to get out of that field. His customer service skills are already decent. I am not sure he needs to know all the stuff in A+ that is specific to hardware, desktop booting, etc. I feel like Windows 10 training would help him troubleshot on the software side which is the majority of support jobs these days.
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@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
The problem with any cert is that it takes time and money. Time and money that could be used to get experience, job hunt, get a different cert, etc. There is a cost of lost opportunity with any cert process. The A+ is quite expensive and lengthy to get, making it extra problematic for people who shouldn't need it. It is also entry level, so if it does affect you, it tends to affect you only right at the beginning of your career and less and less after that until, quite quickly, it drops to zero.
This exactly!
My buddy is a restaurant manager and works 60 hour weeks. He wants to get out of that field. His customer service skills are already decent. I am not sure he needs to know all the stuff in A+ that is specific to hardware, desktop booting, etc. I feel like Windows 10 training would help him troubleshot on the software side which is the majority of support jobs these days.
If he is a restaurant manager he should see if he can meet people that would give him a start because they've seen his customer service and existing soft skills. Knowing someone is better than knowing things.
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@kelly said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
The problem with any cert is that it takes time and money. Time and money that could be used to get experience, job hunt, get a different cert, etc. There is a cost of lost opportunity with any cert process. The A+ is quite expensive and lengthy to get, making it extra problematic for people who shouldn't need it. It is also entry level, so if it does affect you, it tends to affect you only right at the beginning of your career and less and less after that until, quite quickly, it drops to zero.
This exactly!
My buddy is a restaurant manager and works 60 hour weeks. He wants to get out of that field. His customer service skills are already decent. I am not sure he needs to know all the stuff in A+ that is specific to hardware, desktop booting, etc. I feel like Windows 10 training would help him troubleshot on the software side which is the majority of support jobs these days.
If he is a restaurant manager he should see if he can meet people that would give him a start because they've seen his customer service and existing soft skills. Knowing someone is better than knowing things.
I think part of the issue is that A+ is sort of a requirement... I have generally seen a few different scenarios where the filter is used quite often:
SMBs IT people that dont have time to sift through resumes
Recruiters that generally hire for enterprises.Those two actually cover the majority of job postings for entry level positions. Our company doesnt hire direct anymore unless you are a high paygrade (top 5%). Every other person is required to be a contractor for 3 months before receiving official offer. I know alot of other large companies and enterprises are doing this as well. Recruiters dont want to represent someone that they feel could endanger a corporate relationship. Plus they are in competition with other recruiters. So certs tend to become a big deal. You have no choice, but to go through a recruiter for many companies. Hence why people say it tends to be a requirement.
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@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@kelly said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
The problem with any cert is that it takes time and money. Time and money that could be used to get experience, job hunt, get a different cert, etc. There is a cost of lost opportunity with any cert process. The A+ is quite expensive and lengthy to get, making it extra problematic for people who shouldn't need it. It is also entry level, so if it does affect you, it tends to affect you only right at the beginning of your career and less and less after that until, quite quickly, it drops to zero.
This exactly!
My buddy is a restaurant manager and works 60 hour weeks. He wants to get out of that field. His customer service skills are already decent. I am not sure he needs to know all the stuff in A+ that is specific to hardware, desktop booting, etc. I feel like Windows 10 training would help him troubleshot on the software side which is the majority of support jobs these days.
If he is a restaurant manager he should see if he can meet people that would give him a start because they've seen his customer service and existing soft skills. Knowing someone is better than knowing things.
I think part of the issue is that A+ is sort of a requirement... I have generally seen a few different scenarios where the filter is used quite often:
SMBs IT people that dont have time to sift through resumes
Recruiters that generally hire for enterprises.Those two actually cover the majority of job postings for entry level positions. Our company doesnt hire direct anymore unless you are a high paygrade (top 5%). Every other person is required to be a contractor for 3 months before receiving official offer. I know alot of other large companies and enterprises are doing this as well. Recruiters dont want to represent someone that they feel could endanger a corporate relationship. Plus they are in competition with other recruiters. So certs tend to become a big deal. You have no choice, but to go through a recruiter for many companies. Hence why people say it tends to be a requirement.
The best place to get started in IT is in SMB imo. You get to experience a broad swath of the IT experience, and you have more opportunities for access to the business decision makers to understand that side of things. If he can meet a business owner and begin a professional relationship (or may already have one), then he can skip to the head of the line when they look for IT help. The job will probably not be amazing, and it may have all kinds of dysfunction. However, if he can get a few years of experience he will bypass the need for the A+.
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@kelly said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@kelly said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
The problem with any cert is that it takes time and money. Time and money that could be used to get experience, job hunt, get a different cert, etc. There is a cost of lost opportunity with any cert process. The A+ is quite expensive and lengthy to get, making it extra problematic for people who shouldn't need it. It is also entry level, so if it does affect you, it tends to affect you only right at the beginning of your career and less and less after that until, quite quickly, it drops to zero.
This exactly!
My buddy is a restaurant manager and works 60 hour weeks. He wants to get out of that field. His customer service skills are already decent. I am not sure he needs to know all the stuff in A+ that is specific to hardware, desktop booting, etc. I feel like Windows 10 training would help him troubleshot on the software side which is the majority of support jobs these days.
If he is a restaurant manager he should see if he can meet people that would give him a start because they've seen his customer service and existing soft skills. Knowing someone is better than knowing things.
I think part of the issue is that A+ is sort of a requirement... I have generally seen a few different scenarios where the filter is used quite often:
SMBs IT people that dont have time to sift through resumes
Recruiters that generally hire for enterprises.Those two actually cover the majority of job postings for entry level positions. Our company doesnt hire direct anymore unless you are a high paygrade (top 5%). Every other person is required to be a contractor for 3 months before receiving official offer. I know alot of other large companies and enterprises are doing this as well. Recruiters dont want to represent someone that they feel could endanger a corporate relationship. Plus they are in competition with other recruiters. So certs tend to become a big deal. You have no choice, but to go through a recruiter for many companies. Hence why people say it tends to be a requirement.
The best place to get started in IT is in SMB imo. You get to experience a broad swath of the IT experience, and you have more opportunities for access to the business decision makers to understand that side of things. If he can meet a business owner and begin a professional relationship (or may already have one), then he can skip to the head of the line when they look for IT help. The job will probably not be amazing, and it may have all kinds of dysfunction. However, if he can get a few years of experience he will bypass the need for the A+.
Maybe if he can get an internship or something. He knows customer service and the windows desktop side. I am afraid that he may be overwhelmed in SMB. I really think he would be a great helpdesk or perhaps low level desktop tech that can PXE boot to image machines and troubleshoot some OS issues.
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@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@kelly said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@kelly said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
The problem with any cert is that it takes time and money. Time and money that could be used to get experience, job hunt, get a different cert, etc. There is a cost of lost opportunity with any cert process. The A+ is quite expensive and lengthy to get, making it extra problematic for people who shouldn't need it. It is also entry level, so if it does affect you, it tends to affect you only right at the beginning of your career and less and less after that until, quite quickly, it drops to zero.
This exactly!
My buddy is a restaurant manager and works 60 hour weeks. He wants to get out of that field. His customer service skills are already decent. I am not sure he needs to know all the stuff in A+ that is specific to hardware, desktop booting, etc. I feel like Windows 10 training would help him troubleshot on the software side which is the majority of support jobs these days.
If he is a restaurant manager he should see if he can meet people that would give him a start because they've seen his customer service and existing soft skills. Knowing someone is better than knowing things.
I think part of the issue is that A+ is sort of a requirement... I have generally seen a few different scenarios where the filter is used quite often:
SMBs IT people that dont have time to sift through resumes
Recruiters that generally hire for enterprises.Those two actually cover the majority of job postings for entry level positions. Our company doesnt hire direct anymore unless you are a high paygrade (top 5%). Every other person is required to be a contractor for 3 months before receiving official offer. I know alot of other large companies and enterprises are doing this as well. Recruiters dont want to represent someone that they feel could endanger a corporate relationship. Plus they are in competition with other recruiters. So certs tend to become a big deal. You have no choice, but to go through a recruiter for many companies. Hence why people say it tends to be a requirement.
The best place to get started in IT is in SMB imo. You get to experience a broad swath of the IT experience, and you have more opportunities for access to the business decision makers to understand that side of things. If he can meet a business owner and begin a professional relationship (or may already have one), then he can skip to the head of the line when they look for IT help. The job will probably not be amazing, and it may have all kinds of dysfunction. However, if he can get a few years of experience he will bypass the need for the A+.
Maybe if he can get an internship or something. He knows customer service and the windows desktop side. I am afraid that he may be overwhelmed in SMB. I really think he would be a great helpdesk or perhaps low level desktop tech that can PXE boot to image machines and troubleshoot some OS issues.
This is a strange picture you're painting. A guy capable enough to run a restaurant that would get overwhelmed by SMB IT. He is looking to change careers from running a restaurant and move to very basic IT tasks, and that is perhaps all he could ever do. Not sure if I'm misunderstanding something, but that is what I'm getting.
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@kelly said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
The problem with any cert is that it takes time and money. Time and money that could be used to get experience, job hunt, get a different cert, etc. There is a cost of lost opportunity with any cert process. The A+ is quite expensive and lengthy to get, making it extra problematic for people who shouldn't need it. It is also entry level, so if it does affect you, it tends to affect you only right at the beginning of your career and less and less after that until, quite quickly, it drops to zero.
This exactly!
My buddy is a restaurant manager and works 60 hour weeks. He wants to get out of that field. His customer service skills are already decent. I am not sure he needs to know all the stuff in A+ that is specific to hardware, desktop booting, etc. I feel like Windows 10 training would help him troubleshot on the software side which is the majority of support jobs these days.
If he is a restaurant manager he should see if he can meet people that would give him a start because they've seen his customer service and existing soft skills. Knowing someone is better than knowing things.
I did that as a hotel manager. Same thing. Knew the right people.
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@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@kelly said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@kelly said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
The problem with any cert is that it takes time and money. Time and money that could be used to get experience, job hunt, get a different cert, etc. There is a cost of lost opportunity with any cert process. The A+ is quite expensive and lengthy to get, making it extra problematic for people who shouldn't need it. It is also entry level, so if it does affect you, it tends to affect you only right at the beginning of your career and less and less after that until, quite quickly, it drops to zero.
This exactly!
My buddy is a restaurant manager and works 60 hour weeks. He wants to get out of that field. His customer service skills are already decent. I am not sure he needs to know all the stuff in A+ that is specific to hardware, desktop booting, etc. I feel like Windows 10 training would help him troubleshot on the software side which is the majority of support jobs these days.
If he is a restaurant manager he should see if he can meet people that would give him a start because they've seen his customer service and existing soft skills. Knowing someone is better than knowing things.
I think part of the issue is that A+ is sort of a requirement... I have generally seen a few different scenarios where the filter is used quite often:
SMBs IT people that dont have time to sift through resumes
Recruiters that generally hire for enterprises.Those two actually cover the majority of job postings for entry level positions. Our company doesnt hire direct anymore unless you are a high paygrade (top 5%). Every other person is required to be a contractor for 3 months before receiving official offer. I know alot of other large companies and enterprises are doing this as well. Recruiters dont want to represent someone that they feel could endanger a corporate relationship. Plus they are in competition with other recruiters. So certs tend to become a big deal. You have no choice, but to go through a recruiter for many companies. Hence why people say it tends to be a requirement.
The best place to get started in IT is in SMB imo. You get to experience a broad swath of the IT experience, and you have more opportunities for access to the business decision makers to understand that side of things. If he can meet a business owner and begin a professional relationship (or may already have one), then he can skip to the head of the line when they look for IT help. The job will probably not be amazing, and it may have all kinds of dysfunction. However, if he can get a few years of experience he will bypass the need for the A+.
Maybe if he can get an internship or something. He knows customer service and the windows desktop side. I am afraid that he may be overwhelmed in SMB. I really think he would be a great helpdesk or perhaps low level desktop tech that can PXE boot to image machines and troubleshoot some OS issues.
Why does he want to move from a position like that down to one like this? It's a major career change, I get, and some people just dislike where they are. But it's a big step down.
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@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@kelly said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@kelly said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
The problem with any cert is that it takes time and money. Time and money that could be used to get experience, job hunt, get a different cert, etc. There is a cost of lost opportunity with any cert process. The A+ is quite expensive and lengthy to get, making it extra problematic for people who shouldn't need it. It is also entry level, so if it does affect you, it tends to affect you only right at the beginning of your career and less and less after that until, quite quickly, it drops to zero.
This exactly!
My buddy is a restaurant manager and works 60 hour weeks. He wants to get out of that field. His customer service skills are already decent. I am not sure he needs to know all the stuff in A+ that is specific to hardware, desktop booting, etc. I feel like Windows 10 training would help him troubleshot on the software side which is the majority of support jobs these days.
If he is a restaurant manager he should see if he can meet people that would give him a start because they've seen his customer service and existing soft skills. Knowing someone is better than knowing things.
I think part of the issue is that A+ is sort of a requirement... I have generally seen a few different scenarios where the filter is used quite often:
SMBs IT people that dont have time to sift through resumes
Recruiters that generally hire for enterprises.Those two actually cover the majority of job postings for entry level positions. Our company doesnt hire direct anymore unless you are a high paygrade (top 5%). Every other person is required to be a contractor for 3 months before receiving official offer. I know alot of other large companies and enterprises are doing this as well. Recruiters dont want to represent someone that they feel could endanger a corporate relationship. Plus they are in competition with other recruiters. So certs tend to become a big deal. You have no choice, but to go through a recruiter for many companies. Hence why people say it tends to be a requirement.
The best place to get started in IT is in SMB imo. You get to experience a broad swath of the IT experience, and you have more opportunities for access to the business decision makers to understand that side of things. If he can meet a business owner and begin a professional relationship (or may already have one), then he can skip to the head of the line when they look for IT help. The job will probably not be amazing, and it may have all kinds of dysfunction. However, if he can get a few years of experience he will bypass the need for the A+.
Maybe if he can get an internship or something. He knows customer service and the windows desktop side. I am afraid that he may be overwhelmed in SMB. I really think he would be a great helpdesk or perhaps low level desktop tech that can PXE boot to image machines and troubleshoot some OS issues.
Why does he want to move from a position like that down to one like this? It's a major career change, I get, and some people just dislike where they are. But it's a big step down.
You mean from restaurant manager which is salary like $40k and you work like a dog?
