If not A+, then where should someone start?
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@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@kelly said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@kelly said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
The problem with any cert is that it takes time and money. Time and money that could be used to get experience, job hunt, get a different cert, etc. There is a cost of lost opportunity with any cert process. The A+ is quite expensive and lengthy to get, making it extra problematic for people who shouldn't need it. It is also entry level, so if it does affect you, it tends to affect you only right at the beginning of your career and less and less after that until, quite quickly, it drops to zero.
This exactly!
My buddy is a restaurant manager and works 60 hour weeks. He wants to get out of that field. His customer service skills are already decent. I am not sure he needs to know all the stuff in A+ that is specific to hardware, desktop booting, etc. I feel like Windows 10 training would help him troubleshot on the software side which is the majority of support jobs these days.
If he is a restaurant manager he should see if he can meet people that would give him a start because they've seen his customer service and existing soft skills. Knowing someone is better than knowing things.
I think part of the issue is that A+ is sort of a requirement... I have generally seen a few different scenarios where the filter is used quite often:
SMBs IT people that dont have time to sift through resumes
Recruiters that generally hire for enterprises.Those two actually cover the majority of job postings for entry level positions. Our company doesnt hire direct anymore unless you are a high paygrade (top 5%). Every other person is required to be a contractor for 3 months before receiving official offer. I know alot of other large companies and enterprises are doing this as well. Recruiters dont want to represent someone that they feel could endanger a corporate relationship. Plus they are in competition with other recruiters. So certs tend to become a big deal. You have no choice, but to go through a recruiter for many companies. Hence why people say it tends to be a requirement.
The best place to get started in IT is in SMB imo. You get to experience a broad swath of the IT experience, and you have more opportunities for access to the business decision makers to understand that side of things. If he can meet a business owner and begin a professional relationship (or may already have one), then he can skip to the head of the line when they look for IT help. The job will probably not be amazing, and it may have all kinds of dysfunction. However, if he can get a few years of experience he will bypass the need for the A+.
Maybe if he can get an internship or something. He knows customer service and the windows desktop side. I am afraid that he may be overwhelmed in SMB. I really think he would be a great helpdesk or perhaps low level desktop tech that can PXE boot to image machines and troubleshoot some OS issues.
Why does he want to move from a position like that down to one like this? It's a major career change, I get, and some people just dislike where they are. But it's a big step down.
You mean from restaurant manager which is salary like $40k and you work like a dog?
Entry level help desk and bench tech is usually lower than that.
If he's in management already, it may be more wise to stay in management, but move on from restaurant management... rather than starting over in entry level help desk or bench tech work.
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@tim_g said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@kelly said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@kelly said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
The problem with any cert is that it takes time and money. Time and money that could be used to get experience, job hunt, get a different cert, etc. There is a cost of lost opportunity with any cert process. The A+ is quite expensive and lengthy to get, making it extra problematic for people who shouldn't need it. It is also entry level, so if it does affect you, it tends to affect you only right at the beginning of your career and less and less after that until, quite quickly, it drops to zero.
This exactly!
My buddy is a restaurant manager and works 60 hour weeks. He wants to get out of that field. His customer service skills are already decent. I am not sure he needs to know all the stuff in A+ that is specific to hardware, desktop booting, etc. I feel like Windows 10 training would help him troubleshot on the software side which is the majority of support jobs these days.
If he is a restaurant manager he should see if he can meet people that would give him a start because they've seen his customer service and existing soft skills. Knowing someone is better than knowing things.
I think part of the issue is that A+ is sort of a requirement... I have generally seen a few different scenarios where the filter is used quite often:
SMBs IT people that dont have time to sift through resumes
Recruiters that generally hire for enterprises.Those two actually cover the majority of job postings for entry level positions. Our company doesnt hire direct anymore unless you are a high paygrade (top 5%). Every other person is required to be a contractor for 3 months before receiving official offer. I know alot of other large companies and enterprises are doing this as well. Recruiters dont want to represent someone that they feel could endanger a corporate relationship. Plus they are in competition with other recruiters. So certs tend to become a big deal. You have no choice, but to go through a recruiter for many companies. Hence why people say it tends to be a requirement.
The best place to get started in IT is in SMB imo. You get to experience a broad swath of the IT experience, and you have more opportunities for access to the business decision makers to understand that side of things. If he can meet a business owner and begin a professional relationship (or may already have one), then he can skip to the head of the line when they look for IT help. The job will probably not be amazing, and it may have all kinds of dysfunction. However, if he can get a few years of experience he will bypass the need for the A+.
Maybe if he can get an internship or something. He knows customer service and the windows desktop side. I am afraid that he may be overwhelmed in SMB. I really think he would be a great helpdesk or perhaps low level desktop tech that can PXE boot to image machines and troubleshoot some OS issues.
Why does he want to move from a position like that down to one like this? It's a major career change, I get, and some people just dislike where they are. But it's a big step down.
You mean from restaurant manager which is salary like $40k and you work like a dog?
Entry level help desk and bench tech is usually lower than that.
If he's in management already, it may be more wise to stay in management, but move on from restaurant management... rather than starting over in entry level help desk or bench tech work.
$40k may be around starting pay, but that is just the bottom for help desk. Plus he could always move out of helpdesk in 1-2 years as he learns more. Also 40 hours a week vs 60-80 hours is huge. Entry level positions are rarely on call if ever.
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Also Restaurant Manager = Everything falls on your shoulders
Entry level tech = Bare minimum expected
That can be really huge when you are missing out on time with the family and can be available 50% more.
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@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@tim_g said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@kelly said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@kelly said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
The problem with any cert is that it takes time and money. Time and money that could be used to get experience, job hunt, get a different cert, etc. There is a cost of lost opportunity with any cert process. The A+ is quite expensive and lengthy to get, making it extra problematic for people who shouldn't need it. It is also entry level, so if it does affect you, it tends to affect you only right at the beginning of your career and less and less after that until, quite quickly, it drops to zero.
This exactly!
My buddy is a restaurant manager and works 60 hour weeks. He wants to get out of that field. His customer service skills are already decent. I am not sure he needs to know all the stuff in A+ that is specific to hardware, desktop booting, etc. I feel like Windows 10 training would help him troubleshot on the software side which is the majority of support jobs these days.
If he is a restaurant manager he should see if he can meet people that would give him a start because they've seen his customer service and existing soft skills. Knowing someone is better than knowing things.
I think part of the issue is that A+ is sort of a requirement... I have generally seen a few different scenarios where the filter is used quite often:
SMBs IT people that dont have time to sift through resumes
Recruiters that generally hire for enterprises.Those two actually cover the majority of job postings for entry level positions. Our company doesnt hire direct anymore unless you are a high paygrade (top 5%). Every other person is required to be a contractor for 3 months before receiving official offer. I know alot of other large companies and enterprises are doing this as well. Recruiters dont want to represent someone that they feel could endanger a corporate relationship. Plus they are in competition with other recruiters. So certs tend to become a big deal. You have no choice, but to go through a recruiter for many companies. Hence why people say it tends to be a requirement.
The best place to get started in IT is in SMB imo. You get to experience a broad swath of the IT experience, and you have more opportunities for access to the business decision makers to understand that side of things. If he can meet a business owner and begin a professional relationship (or may already have one), then he can skip to the head of the line when they look for IT help. The job will probably not be amazing, and it may have all kinds of dysfunction. However, if he can get a few years of experience he will bypass the need for the A+.
Maybe if he can get an internship or something. He knows customer service and the windows desktop side. I am afraid that he may be overwhelmed in SMB. I really think he would be a great helpdesk or perhaps low level desktop tech that can PXE boot to image machines and troubleshoot some OS issues.
Why does he want to move from a position like that down to one like this? It's a major career change, I get, and some people just dislike where they are. But it's a big step down.
You mean from restaurant manager which is salary like $40k and you work like a dog?
Entry level help desk and bench tech is usually lower than that.
If he's in management already, it may be more wise to stay in management, but move on from restaurant management... rather than starting over in entry level help desk or bench tech work.
$40k may be around starting pay, but that is just the bottom for help desk. Plus he could always move out of helpdesk in 1-2 years as he learns more. Also 40 hours a week vs 60-80 hours is huge. Entry level positions are rarely on call if ever.
True.
But going from $40k restaurant manager (also the lowest starting point of management) to management somewhere else (not a restaurant), goes higher than help desk, and a lot faster. Maybe he can find a management position somewhere else for $60k?
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@tim_g said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@tim_g said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@kelly said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@kelly said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
The problem with any cert is that it takes time and money. Time and money that could be used to get experience, job hunt, get a different cert, etc. There is a cost of lost opportunity with any cert process. The A+ is quite expensive and lengthy to get, making it extra problematic for people who shouldn't need it. It is also entry level, so if it does affect you, it tends to affect you only right at the beginning of your career and less and less after that until, quite quickly, it drops to zero.
This exactly!
My buddy is a restaurant manager and works 60 hour weeks. He wants to get out of that field. His customer service skills are already decent. I am not sure he needs to know all the stuff in A+ that is specific to hardware, desktop booting, etc. I feel like Windows 10 training would help him troubleshot on the software side which is the majority of support jobs these days.
If he is a restaurant manager he should see if he can meet people that would give him a start because they've seen his customer service and existing soft skills. Knowing someone is better than knowing things.
I think part of the issue is that A+ is sort of a requirement... I have generally seen a few different scenarios where the filter is used quite often:
SMBs IT people that dont have time to sift through resumes
Recruiters that generally hire for enterprises.Those two actually cover the majority of job postings for entry level positions. Our company doesnt hire direct anymore unless you are a high paygrade (top 5%). Every other person is required to be a contractor for 3 months before receiving official offer. I know alot of other large companies and enterprises are doing this as well. Recruiters dont want to represent someone that they feel could endanger a corporate relationship. Plus they are in competition with other recruiters. So certs tend to become a big deal. You have no choice, but to go through a recruiter for many companies. Hence why people say it tends to be a requirement.
The best place to get started in IT is in SMB imo. You get to experience a broad swath of the IT experience, and you have more opportunities for access to the business decision makers to understand that side of things. If he can meet a business owner and begin a professional relationship (or may already have one), then he can skip to the head of the line when they look for IT help. The job will probably not be amazing, and it may have all kinds of dysfunction. However, if he can get a few years of experience he will bypass the need for the A+.
Maybe if he can get an internship or something. He knows customer service and the windows desktop side. I am afraid that he may be overwhelmed in SMB. I really think he would be a great helpdesk or perhaps low level desktop tech that can PXE boot to image machines and troubleshoot some OS issues.
Why does he want to move from a position like that down to one like this? It's a major career change, I get, and some people just dislike where they are. But it's a big step down.
You mean from restaurant manager which is salary like $40k and you work like a dog?
Entry level help desk and bench tech is usually lower than that.
If he's in management already, it may be more wise to stay in management, but move on from restaurant management... rather than starting over in entry level help desk or bench tech work.
$40k may be around starting pay, but that is just the bottom for help desk. Plus he could always move out of helpdesk in 1-2 years as he learns more. Also 40 hours a week vs 60-80 hours is huge. Entry level positions are rarely on call if ever.
True.
But going from $40k restaurant manager (also the lowest starting point of management) to management somewhere else (not a restaurant), goes higher than help desk, and a lot faster. Maybe he can find a management position somewhere else for $60k?
Taco Bell started at $55K like 15 years ago. Seems like that could pay well quickly.
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A+ helped me get a $12/hour job 7 years ago. $40K entry helpdesk jobs are out there, but I've mostly just heard about them in unionized jobs, and someone applying internally can cross departments and will automatically get the job instead of you because of seniority.
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@flaxking said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
A+ helped me get a $12/hour job 7 years ago. $40K entry helpdesk jobs are out there, but I've mostly just heard about them in unionized jobs, and someone applying internally can cross departments and will automatically get the job instead of you because of seniority.
Most of the stuff in my area starts around $20/hr which is over $38k. I live in an area where cost of living and salary is lower than national average.
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@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@flaxking said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
A+ helped me get a $12/hour job 7 years ago. $40K entry helpdesk jobs are out there, but I've mostly just heard about them in unionized jobs, and someone applying internally can cross departments and will automatically get the job instead of you because of seniority.
Most of the stuff in my area starts around $20/hr which is over $38k. I live in an area where cost of living and salary is lower than national average.
$20/hr is way over that, even just at 40hr weeks. Do 50+ hours and you are making some serious money. $57,200
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@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@flaxking said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
A+ helped me get a $12/hour job 7 years ago. $40K entry helpdesk jobs are out there, but I've mostly just heard about them in unionized jobs, and someone applying internally can cross departments and will automatically get the job instead of you because of seniority.
Most of the stuff in my area starts around $20/hr which is over $38k. I live in an area where cost of living and salary is lower than national average.
$20/hr is way over that, even just at 40hr weeks. Do 50+ hours and you are making some serious money. $57,200
The official number used by most government agencies is 2087 work hours in a year.
So math is your friend.
- 2087 * $20 = $41,740
- 2087 * $25 = $52,175
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Most people paid hourly don't make $100,000 but for reference.
- $100,000 / 2087 = $47.915668424
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@jaredbusch said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@irj said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@flaxking said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
A+ helped me get a $12/hour job 7 years ago. $40K entry helpdesk jobs are out there, but I've mostly just heard about them in unionized jobs, and someone applying internally can cross departments and will automatically get the job instead of you because of seniority.
Most of the stuff in my area starts around $20/hr which is over $38k. I live in an area where cost of living and salary is lower than national average.
$20/hr is way over that, even just at 40hr weeks. Do 50+ hours and you are making some serious money. $57,200
The official number used by most government agencies is 2087 work hours in a year.
So math is your friend.
- 2087 * $20 = $41,740
- 2087 * $25 = $52,175
Right. I did it on 50 hours plus overtime rate for ten hours, so 55 * 52 * 20
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Does the answer to this question change in 2020?
Where would you recommend an entry level person start in IT?
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@IRJ said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
My friend wants to work computer support job. I dont ever see him being the type of guy to work on networking or servers.
How has his career progressed in the last two years? What did he do, and how did it turn out?
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@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@IRJ said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
My friend wants to work computer support job. I dont ever see him being the type of guy to work on networking or servers.
How has his career progressed in the last two years? What did he do, and how did it turn out?
He never made the move to IT. I thought about this and was going to post about it and saw this old thread.
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@IRJ said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
Does the answer to this question change in 2020?
Where would you recommend an entry level person start in IT?
That's an entirely different question from the OP.
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@Dashrender said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@IRJ said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
Does the answer to this question change in 2020?
Where would you recommend an entry level person start in IT?
That's an entirely different question from the OP.
I got the impression from the original thread that the person in question only wanted bench level support, not actual IT.
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@Obsolesce said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
If you owned a computer repair business, would you look over each of the hundreds of applications closely enough to notice someone who is qualified enough that doesn't list an A+ cert?
I've done a bit of study and talks on this. Requirements are used for two primarily purposes...
- To give a general idea of what kind of level or skills are sought. A+ requirement tells us that it is absolutely entry level, the absolute bottom rung. Any experience, of any sort in IT would be leaps and bounds above this requirement. Every hiring manager I've ever spoken to refers to this as the "or better" principle. We want X, the equivalent of X, or better than X. Having the Network+, for example, is a full rung on the ladder above the A+. If the A+ (or better) is a requirement, then the Net+ is above that and only the most worthless and corrupt HR department would ever attempt to screw their employer and not take it.
- Everyone adds all kinds of requirements so that there is always a reason you can give to not hire someone so that you never have to pretend that someone evaluated better or that you weren't a good match. Turning people down for jobs is stressful and risks discrimination charges. So if you make a bunch of requirements that no one is going to have all of you have a way to turn anyone down, anytime and not have to worry about proving why. You have a completely false excuse that no one can prove isn't the real reason. It's a stock HR tool that everyone in HR knows as a way to CYA when turning people down for a job. Same reason impossible requirements are used (10 years on Ubuntu 18.04) because it's a guaranteed excuse.
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@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
If the A+ (or better) is a requirement, then the Net+ is above that and only the most worthless and corrupt HR department would ever attempt to screw their employer and not take it.
This assumes the HR department knows that Network+ is higher than A+. Not an assumption I would make.
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@Dashrender said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
If the A+ (or better) is a requirement, then the Net+ is above that and only the most worthless and corrupt HR department would ever attempt to screw their employer and not take it.
This assumes the HR department knows that Network+ is higher than A+. Not an assumption I would make.
No, it assumes HR is incompetent and not even remotely attempting to do its job. And that any job you'd want to waste time talking to would operate that way.
One is a huge assumption people should not make, HR is rarely so incompetent or outright evil to sabotage their own firms intentionally. The IT hatred for HR does a lot to undermine logic in IT career planning. It's absurd.
The second is a big planning mistake IT should not make. No one honestly trying to have a career should be focused on trying to get interviews and waste their time with the bottom of the barrel jobs. There will always be total career failures out there to fill those jobs, don't fight for them.
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@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@Dashrender said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
@scottalanmiller said in If not A+, then where should someone start?:
If the A+ (or better) is a requirement, then the Net+ is above that and only the most worthless and corrupt HR department would ever attempt to screw their employer and not take it.
This assumes the HR department knows that Network+ is higher than A+. Not an assumption I would make.
No, it assumes HR is incompetent and not even remotely attempting to do its job. And that any job you'd want to waste time talking to would operate that way.
One is a huge assumption people should not make, HR is rarely so incompetent or outright evil to sabotage their own firms intentionally. The IT hatred for HR does a lot to undermine logic in IT career planning. It's absurd.
The second is a big planning mistake IT should not make. No one honestly trying to have a career should be focused on trying to get interviews and waste their time with the bottom of the barrel jobs. There will always be total career failures out there to fill those jobs, don't fight for them.
I don't think HR is bad at selecting good resumes to pass on to the hiring managers. I feel that's a general misconception and is as Scott says, only places you don't want to work anyways.
