Solved Issue installing Korora
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@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
An important thing to remember is that in the case that I'm talking about as the example.... Canonical absolutely provided a solution. 100% they had a fix. The fix just required "leaving LTS". In no way could we say that Canonical didn't have a fix, and they definitely provided support. And while I didn't test this at the time, I'm 99.999% sure that they would have provided great support for updating to the non-LTS version and all that.
There is no reason that we can't think of "leaving LTS" as a valid fix from the support group. Is there really anything wrong with that being their answer?
No, in an emergency situation as a last ditch effort I don't think there is anything wrong with that. However I believe that's a far cry from
Ubuntu LTS support... "Upgrade to current, we dont support LTS."
Is it? If "supporting LTS" only refers to "not fixing things" where is the difference? They support LTS... by having you leave it. It's all semantics at that point. Is leaving LTS still supporting LTS?
Because there may have not been a fix available. If they did everything possible to get you a solution but it was impossible. I call that support.
Just saying "upgrade to non LTS" without any troubleshooting isn't support, which is what that statement sounds like.
If they did everything in their power to fix it but it wasn't possible, I do call that support.
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@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
An important thing to remember is that in the case that I'm talking about as the example.... Canonical absolutely provided a solution. 100% they had a fix. The fix just required "leaving LTS". In no way could we say that Canonical didn't have a fix, and they definitely provided support. And while I didn't test this at the time, I'm 99.999% sure that they would have provided great support for updating to the non-LTS version and all that.
There is no reason that we can't think of "leaving LTS" as a valid fix from the support group. Is there really anything wrong with that being their answer?
No, in an emergency situation as a last ditch effort I don't think there is anything wrong with that. However I believe that's a far cry from
Ubuntu LTS support... "Upgrade to current, we dont support LTS."
Is it? If "supporting LTS" only refers to "not fixing things" where is the difference? They support LTS... by having you leave it. It's all semantics at that point. Is leaving LTS still supporting LTS?
Because there may have not been a fix available. If they did everything possible to get you a solution but it was impossible. I call that support.
Just saying "upgrade to non LTS" without any troubleshooting isn't support, which is what that statement sounds like.
If they did everything in their power to fix it but it wasn't possible, I do call that support.
Well... they had the power to backport from the non-LTS release. They had fixed the issue (the issue in this particular case actually came from Ubuntu, not Debian) themselves, but did not want to provide it to the LTS release. It would have been a pain, but it is was absolutely within their power to have done it.
They didn't really need to do troubleshooting beyond recognizing a known issue.
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@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
An important thing to remember is that in the case that I'm talking about as the example.... Canonical absolutely provided a solution. 100% they had a fix. The fix just required "leaving LTS". In no way could we say that Canonical didn't have a fix, and they definitely provided support. And while I didn't test this at the time, I'm 99.999% sure that they would have provided great support for updating to the non-LTS version and all that.
There is no reason that we can't think of "leaving LTS" as a valid fix from the support group. Is there really anything wrong with that being their answer?
No, in an emergency situation as a last ditch effort I don't think there is anything wrong with that. However I believe that's a far cry from
Ubuntu LTS support... "Upgrade to current, we dont support LTS."
Is it? If "supporting LTS" only refers to "not fixing things" where is the difference? They support LTS... by having you leave it. It's all semantics at that point. Is leaving LTS still supporting LTS?
Because there may have not been a fix available. If they did everything possible to get you a solution but it was impossible. I call that support.
Just saying "upgrade to non LTS" without any troubleshooting isn't support, which is what that statement sounds like.
If they did everything in their power to fix it but it wasn't possible, I do call that support.
Well... they had the power to backport from the non-LTS release. They had fixed the issue (the issue in this particular case actually came from Ubuntu, not Debian) themselves, but did not want to provide it to the LTS release. It would have been a pain, but it is was absolutely within their power to have done it.
They didn't really need to do troubleshooting beyond recognizing a known issue.
Right but what dependencies were there with the fix? I don't know the specifics obviously, but I can't imagine it's as simple as backporting some packages. It may have been intertwined enough that you would be on a non LTS anyway if you did it.
I think RedHat is a little different because their "LTS" vs their non is so vastly different that a large fix wouldn't be similar enough to Fedora. But here, if it's such a drastic change that the fix will be close enough to a non LTS, what's the difference?
Hard to put that into words if that makes sense.
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And with LTS the kernels are much newer than RHEL. So when a new LTS is released every 2 years, it's harder to patch very much and not look like a non LTS.
Not making excuses, but another reason why I would still consider them to "support" it, but they may have more technical challenges against them.
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And you also can't discount the fact they may have made a special agreement to support a non LTS if this was a big enough issue.
What if RHEL said "we can't fix this issue, but we will support you on Fedora." I would 100% consider that support. I almost consider that above and beyond (if that was indeed what they did).
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@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
What if RHEL said "we can't fix this issue, but we will support you on Fedora." I would 100% consider that support. I almost consider that above and beyond (if that was indeed what they did).
RHEL's contract definitely says that they get RHEL fixed, though. It's a different world. But if this was their answer... that the "full" support was Fedora and RHEL was only "support up until we send you to Fedora" then I would totally say that we are back to the original point here which was... for the "full" support level you stay current, not on LTS.
Remember that the original issue was that you got more support on current, less on LTS. You can argue that the "more" might not be full support. But there is no means of arguing that "less" is full. See what I mean? The current release of Ubuntu is getting a higher support tier than LTS. I'm not saying that it doesn't make sense or isn't natural. But when companies "stay" on LTS thinking that they get "special support", that's what I am trying to correct. It doesn't work that way.
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@scottalanmiller said in Issue installing Korora:
@stacksofplates said in Issue installing Korora:
What if RHEL said "we can't fix this issue, but we will support you on Fedora." I would 100% consider that support. I almost consider that above and beyond (if that was indeed what they did).
RHEL's contract definitely says that they get RHEL fixed, though. It's a different world. But if this was their answer... that the "full" support was Fedora and RHEL was only "support up until we send you to Fedora" then I would totally say that we are back to the original point here which was... for the "full" support level you stay current, not on LTS.
Remember that the original issue was that you got more support on current, less on LTS. You can argue that the "more" might not be full support. But there is no means of arguing that "less" is full. See what I mean? The current release of Ubuntu is getting a higher support tier than LTS. I'm not saying that it doesn't make sense or isn't natural. But when companies "stay" on LTS thinking that they get "special support", that's what I am trying to correct. It doesn't work that way.
Ya the RHEL analogy was bad since the world is so different. I'm not saying that you get more or less support on either. My argument is with the dismissive tone of that original statement.
Like I said. How do you know this wasn't a one time thing that was a complete special case.
I have a suspicion there is more than one meaning to support in different places mentioned. Support in their terms for LTS means the support we are thinking of. And "support" for non LTS means they give you patches and bug fixes.
Like support in their terms is a different meaning than their wiki. One is legal, one is community speak.
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I'm completely lost with this... wow!
Lets say I have the most important website in the world to run on my server, and all I can use is Ubuntu Server. Which one do I download, and why?
Saying that I do not purchase a separate support agreement through Ubuntu:
What does the LTS version do for my system and environment that the latest version does not? And vice versa?
I see two options, currently:
Ubuntu Server 16.04.2 LTS
The Long Term Support version of Ubuntu Server, including the Mitaka release of OpenStack and support guaranteed until April 2021 — 64-bit only.and
Ubuntu Server 16.10
The latest version of Ubuntu Server, including the Newton release of OpenStack and nine months of security and maintenance updates.Questions:
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What does Ubuntu's "S" (support) in LTS mean?
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Does this mean they support everything in the repository? Just the kernel? Just the <whatever>?
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And by "support", support how?
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If I get the LTS version, does that mean I get security updates and the latest version of Ubuntu doesn't? I really don't get what support means in LTS.
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Does LTS mean I only get support (like helpdesk support) if I'm paying for support?
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If I don't pay for support, is using the LTS version pointless?
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In Ubuntu Server LTS, does this mean all repository items are "supported"? How is it different than the latest version?
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Does the LTS version mean that there are no major changes? And that the "support" part of LTS is a meaningless word where they meant to say "Long Term no major functional changes" instead of LTS? (LTnmfc)
I'm hoping for layman's terms here, because now I'm lost.
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LTS just means slow upgrade cycle. They don't release patches as often, and thus support the platform for longer.
Businesses that have to meticulously go through every update to ensure it's functional are more likely to use and purchase support for LTS.
16.10 is the standard upgrade cycle (daily almost) and has a shorter total "official" support life.
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@Tim_G said in Issue installing Korora:
I'm completely lost with this... wow!
Lets say I have the most important website in the world to run on my server, and all I can use is Ubuntu Server. Which one do I download, and why?
Well maybe this helps....
- If your goal is for things to change as little as possible, LTS changes almost none over it's lifespan, which is moderately long. If it works when you first use it and your needs don't change, it will likely continue to work for you.
- If your goal is for the most mature code base with the latest fixes and most active "support" for resolving new issues, then you want the "current" release. This release gets the "most support", but also changes every six months.
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@Tim_G said in Issue installing Korora:
I see two options, currently:
Ubuntu Server 16.04.2 LTS
The Long Term Support version of Ubuntu Server, including the Mitaka release of OpenStack and support guaranteed until April 2021 — 64-bit only.and
Ubuntu Server 16.10
The latest version of Ubuntu Server, including the Newton release of OpenStack and nine months of security and maintenance updates.We normally thing of these as "Current LTS" and "Current". At least I do. One is the latest LTS and one is the latest period. 25% of the time, these two are merged. For example, from April till October of 2016, the 16.04 LTS was both the Current and the Current LTS. But 75% of the time, there are two products, like right now. Today there is 16.04 the Current LTS and there is 16.10, the Current. In a few weeks, the Current will be updated from 16.10 to 17.04, but the Current LTS will remain for another year.
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@Tim_G said in Issue installing Korora:
- Does this mean they support everything in the repository? Just the kernel? Just the <whatever>?
No, in one of those links that we sent in all of this huge thread, they had mention of it being a limited subset of the core repo. It's a lot of stuff, but not everything.
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@Tim_G said in Issue installing Korora:
- If I get the LTS version, does that mean I get security updates and the latest version of Ubuntu doesn't? I really don't get what support means in LTS.
No. Both the Current LTS and the Current get full security updates. I've seen no question from anybody as to that not being totally handled. Whatever security fixes there are, they provide.
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@Tim_G said in Issue installing Korora:
- Does LTS mean I only get support (like helpdesk support) if I'm paying for support?
This depends on your definition of support. The product is "supported" for everyone for its lifespan, meaning that you get security updates and patches. You never pay for those.
What you pay for is being able to call them with your own issues and have them help you. So in your helpdesk example, yes, that's only when paid for.
But this applies equally to LTS and Current. LTS never gets you "more" support than Current. Longer without you updating, not More at any moment.
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@Tim_G said in Issue installing Korora:
- If I don't pay for support, is using the LTS version pointless?
No, the value of LTS vs Current remains roughly identical regardless if you used paid support or not. Think of it like RHEL vs CentOS (paid vs free support.)
Ubuntu LTS Paid is analogous to RHEL
Ubuntu LTS Free is analogous to CentOSThe code and product are identical. You get patches, updates and security fixes as long as they provide them. Everyone gets those equally. But if you want to call someone and have them help you do something, look at your system or fix a break that affects you, you have to pay for that in both cases.
So if you see value in CentOS vs Fedora, then you would see value in Ubuntu LTS Free vs Ubuntu Current Free.
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Quick Matrix That Might Help Slightly. One thing that is confusing is that NO Linux system lines up exactly with another. They are all unique to quite some degree. We can't compare Suse really at all, it is SO different. The RH and Ubuntu worlds are closer, but not all that close. But here is how they map best...
Type of Product Red Hat Ubuntu 6 Month Cycle Free Fedora Ubuntu Current (16.10) 6 Month Cycle Paid No Offering Ubuntu Current (16.10) LTS Free CentOS Ubuntu LTS LTS Paid RHEL Ubuntu LTS -
Okay, still taking in everything you said above with an example... have a question in the meantime...
We are all aware of the differences between Gnome2 and Gnome 3. Just for example....
16.04.2 LTS would stick with Gnome2 for 5 years, even when you do an apt-get update.
and Ubuntu Server 16.10 could throw in Gnome3 at any time, therefore screwing up stability?
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@Tim_G said in Issue installing Korora:
- In Ubuntu Server LTS, does this mean all repository items are "supported"? How is it different than the latest version?
What we know is that Current always has more up to date packages than LTS. This means that Current solves problems first, it also gets problems first (normally, 10.04 was an exception where the LTS release was also a rather untested early release of a new subsystem.)
What we believe from our analysis and what I was told is that Current gets "full support" meaning that as issues are identified, Ubuntu makes every effort to make the system stable and secure in the Current release. LTS releases only get this when it is convenient (define that as you will) and may require you to move from LTS to Current in order to get the level of support than you want.
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@Tim_G said in Issue installing Korora:
Okay, still taking in everything you said above with an example... have a question in the meantime...
We are all aware of the differences between Gnome2 and Gnome 3. Just for example....
16.04.2 LTS would stick with Gnome2 for 5 years, even when you do an apt-get update.
and Ubuntu Server 16.10 could throw in Gnome3 at any time, therefore screwing up stability?
No. All versions of Ubuntu are "stable in their lifetimes." Meaning 16.04 LTS is the same from the first day to the last. 16.10 Current is also stable from first day to the last. (Stable meaning no package changes.) The difference is that the first day to last is five years, or nine months.
But no version gets breaking changes after release. That is only with Tumbleweed. No other enterprise Linux product attempts that.
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@Tim_G Ubuntu releases a Current product every six months like clockwork. This is part of their thing. Every one is essentially identical. They have a six month cycle of preparing packages to be "frozen" in that upcoming release. Once released, that release becomes "Current" and remains "Current" for six months. Once released, the package versions (major.minor) are stable forever within that version.
3 out of 4 of those releases only "exist" for nine months and then are retired. 1 out of 4 of those releases gets marked as LTS and gets a "long tail" of security patches for an additional 4+ years. That's all, just longer patching (and installation / configuration support.)
