Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?
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@scottalanmiller said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
So @BRRABill asked this question yesterday and I figured it was worthy of a little demonstration. First, for those that have not looked recently, here are the price numbers for AetherStore:
BTW:
What do you think most people use this product for? Storage, or backup?
If this is the official pricing, I am wondering if the 25GB lower "free" end should be higher. That basically knocks anyone doing backups out of the equation.
Granted, $10 isn't a bank breaker, either.
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@BRRABill said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
What do you think most people use this product for? Storage, or backup?
From both end users that I know and from speaking with AetherStore themselves, backup is the biggest use case for the product.
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@BRRABill said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
If this is the official pricing, I am wondering if the 25GB lower "free" end should be higher. That basically knocks anyone doing backups out of the equation.
That would be the idea. The free tier is really for testing and really basic stuff. If you want production backups, paying for support is probably a good idea.
Keep in mind that anyone doing DevOps style backups, 25GB is enormous.
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@Dashrender said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
My machines mostly still have HDDs in them. 500 GB drives. Probably 300+ GB free. If I ignore the laptops (yes I know Laptops can be part of it.. AetherStore specifically tested their coming and going as part of their tests), I have around 50 machines. Assuming only doubling of the data, that would provide me with 7.5 TB of space total.
Now the question is, what's the performance like?
I realize now that doubling of the data isn't good enough through.. As the OP mentions 4 times is really probably the lowest safety margin when using something like AetherStore. This is because of the completely unknown factor of people rebooting their own computers.
Toss in the fact that we use an application that causes the need for even more frequent rebooting, and even 4 might not be enough.
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@Dashrender said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
@Dashrender said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
My machines mostly still have HDDs in them. 500 GB drives. Probably 300+ GB free. If I ignore the laptops (yes I know Laptops can be part of it.. AetherStore specifically tested their coming and going as part of their tests), I have around 50 machines. Assuming only doubling of the data, that would provide me with 7.5 TB of space total.
Now the question is, what's the performance like?
I realize now that doubling of the data isn't good enough through.. As the OP mentions 4 times is really probably the lowest safety margin when using something like AetherStore. This is because of the completely unknown factor of people rebooting their own computers.
Toss in the fact that we use an application that causes the need for even more frequent rebooting, and even 4 might not be enough.
Rebooting isn't an issue, it's resilient to that. It's prolonged downtime that is the issue. Four times is really quite sufficient in any kind of normal circumstance and less with any kind of control over the environment.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
@Dashrender said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
My machines mostly still have HDDs in them. 500 GB drives. Probably 300+ GB free. If I ignore the laptops (yes I know Laptops can be part of it.. AetherStore specifically tested their coming and going as part of their tests), I have around 50 machines. Assuming only doubling of the data, that would provide me with 7.5 TB of space total.
Now the question is, what's the performance like?
A lot of the performance comes from the main access node(s), so if those have fast drives it can make a big difference, or should.
So is the proposal that the main access node have somewhere around 50% or more of the required space of the entire array so that hopefully most of the data is coming from a single point?
OK I just pulled that out of my rear.. but if not for some huge amount of cache on the main node, I'm not sure what you're driving at?
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@Dashrender said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
@Dashrender said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
My machines mostly still have HDDs in them. 500 GB drives. Probably 300+ GB free. If I ignore the laptops (yes I know Laptops can be part of it.. AetherStore specifically tested their coming and going as part of their tests), I have around 50 machines. Assuming only doubling of the data, that would provide me with 7.5 TB of space total.
Now the question is, what's the performance like?
A lot of the performance comes from the main access node(s), so if those have fast drives it can make a big difference, or should.
So is the proposal that the main access node have somewhere around 50% or more of the required space of the entire array so that hopefully most of the data is coming from a single point?
If you want to treat the head node as a cache, yes, you could load it with fast storage, even give it SSD and even local RAID if you want. Depends on your goals. It's just one part of the puzzle so a question like this needs a lot of context.
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@Dashrender said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
OK I just pulled that out of my rear.. but if not for some huge amount of cache on the main node, I'm not sure what you're driving at?
If you have a four node system and four time replication, that means that everything is on the head node - it won't go out to other nodes for other reads at all. If you have four time replication on eight nodes, half of all reads (all things being equal) half of your reads will come from the head node. No matter what, it's significant.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
@Dashrender said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
OK I just pulled that out of my rear.. but if not for some huge amount of cache on the main node, I'm not sure what you're driving at?
If you have a four node system and four time replication, that means that everything is on the head node - it won't go out to other nodes for other reads at all. If you have four time replication on eight nodes, half of all reads (all things being equal) half of your reads will come from the head node. No matter what, it's significant.
Sure, but these numbers seem pretty low. But maybe I'm missing something. I would anticipate that that those using something like this would have more like 20+ workstations. But of course, it is just as usable at the 4/8 node count as well.
But looking at the 20+ node (40ish in my case) now you're head node will have only a tiny fraction of the data on it.
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@Dashrender said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
@Dashrender said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
OK I just pulled that out of my rear.. but if not for some huge amount of cache on the main node, I'm not sure what you're driving at?
If you have a four node system and four time replication, that means that everything is on the head node - it won't go out to other nodes for other reads at all. If you have four time replication on eight nodes, half of all reads (all things being equal) half of your reads will come from the head node. No matter what, it's significant.
Sure, but these numbers seem pretty low. But maybe I'm missing something. I would anticipate that that those using something like this would have more like 20+ workstations. But of course, it is just as usable at the 4/8 node count as well.
But looking at the 20+ node (40ish in my case) now you're head node will have only a tiny fraction of the data on it.
Overall I think that that is exceedingly uncommon. Why would you choose the head node to be one with so little free storage, for one thing? And how commonly do people need twenty or more workstations to get the space that they need? Most have HDs and are getting loads of space per machine, not small SSDs. The small space per machine issue is real, but not, I believe, the majority case. And once you get to any size, the purchase of a single hard drive to significantly speed up operations is nothing.
Basically, if you are so small that a drive is an expense at all, it's probably not a factor to you. If you are big enough to care, a single drive is essentially free.
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@Dashrender said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
But maybe I'm missing something. I would anticipate that that those using something like this would have more like 20+ workstations.
I don't know, but my impression is that what people tend to use is much smaller on average. But the bigger the pool, the lower the impact of individual nodes, too.
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I think the biggest point I see is around security. With a backup server or multiple backup servers the data is contained to those machines wherever you decide to put them. It seems like going backwards having data shared locally on workstations. We make it a point to have nothing on the local workstations except what is needed for authentication and mounting of the real stuff.
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@stacksofplates said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
I think the biggest point I see is around security. With a backup server or multiple backup servers the data is contained to those machines wherever you decide to put them. It seems like going backwards having data shared locally on workstations. We make it a point to have nothing on the local workstations except what is needed for authentication and mounting of the real stuff.
Heavily encrypted on the workstations. The individual workstations have no access to the data. And if you have more machines than you have redundancy, the data on the individual machines are incomplete, even when encrypted.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
@stacksofplates said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
I think the biggest point I see is around security. With a backup server or multiple backup servers the data is contained to those machines wherever you decide to put them. It seems like going backwards having data shared locally on workstations. We make it a point to have nothing on the local workstations except what is needed for authentication and mounting of the real stuff.
Heavily encrypted on the workstations. The individual workstations have no access to the data. And if you have more machines than you have redundancy, the data on the individual machines are incomplete, even when encrypted.
I guess my point is, if the right machines are stolen (since they are likely to have the least security), there is no backup.
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@stacksofplates said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
@stacksofplates said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
I think the biggest point I see is around security. With a backup server or multiple backup servers the data is contained to those machines wherever you decide to put them. It seems like going backwards having data shared locally on workstations. We make it a point to have nothing on the local workstations except what is needed for authentication and mounting of the real stuff.
Heavily encrypted on the workstations. The individual workstations have no access to the data. And if you have more machines than you have redundancy, the data on the individual machines are incomplete, even when encrypted.
I guess my point is, if the right machines are stolen (since they are likely to have the least security), there is no backup.
True, but it would take multiple, low value machines being taken to do that whereas a NAS is a single high value device. Which is more likely to be stolen? I don't really know. Depends on the environment. I've known places to have things like servers stolen, but not desktops. Laptops yes, but not desktops. Typically desktops are not worth it to fence. And you'd need to get all of the copies of the backups, which are potentially spread out to different rooms, offices, or whatever. Clearly something to consider, though.
But a single NAS or pair of NAS would be easily identifiable as things to steal or damage. I'd guess, even with more security, that centralized backups are more at risk in average situations.
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If you have an office with just four desktops, and you use all four for AetherStore, and they all sit next to each other in a common room. Yup, that's likely some bad security of the backups.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
@stacksofplates said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
@stacksofplates said in Why Choose AetherStore Over a NAS?:
I think the biggest point I see is around security. With a backup server or multiple backup servers the data is contained to those machines wherever you decide to put them. It seems like going backwards having data shared locally on workstations. We make it a point to have nothing on the local workstations except what is needed for authentication and mounting of the real stuff.
Heavily encrypted on the workstations. The individual workstations have no access to the data. And if you have more machines than you have redundancy, the data on the individual machines are incomplete, even when encrypted.
I guess my point is, if the right machines are stolen (since they are likely to have the least security), there is no backup.
True, but it would take multiple, low value machines being taken to do that whereas a NAS is a single high value device. Which is more likely to be stolen? I don't really know. Depends on the environment. I've known places to have things like servers stolen, but not desktops. Laptops yes, but not desktops. Typically desktops are not worth it to fence. And you'd need to get all of the copies of the backups, which are potentially spread out to different rooms, offices, or whatever. Clearly something to consider, though.
But a single NAS or pair of NAS would be easily identifiable as things to steal or damage. I'd guess, even with more security, that centralized backups are more at risk in average situations.
Right but with the server, it's usually in a secured room or not even on site, where as the actual desktops/laptops aren't usually secured and are out in the open (depending on what type of office).
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But I'll take an example client... they have hundreds of machines spread out all over the building. Some are in the warehouse - high risk, skip those. They are also old and on slow networks. But loads of executives, lawyers, accountants, engineers and such that have nice, newer workstations with big disks that are in individually locked offices. Those are low risk and the desktops are very separate from each other as risks go.
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Right I mean we can hypothesize about anything. My point was just that's a factor that needs to be taken into consideration. Esp if you have different types of data replicated in differently (if you can do that).
To me it seems like a niche market. A place that's small enough to not have a real NAS (appliance or built) or tape, but not using SaaS. If you're big enough to have a NAS/tape (and real offsite backups), I don't see how this is a benefit.
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Also, not that this isn't a cool product. It's really interesting.
