Buying vs Saving Economic Theory
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@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@wirestyle22 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@wirestyle22 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Do you have any studies that point to this? Sorry but this just sounds made up. Yes there can be health related complications with depression and other mental disorders but simply retiring doesn't lead to depression.
I started this whole line of discussion stating that I had no actual knowledge of study data.
But at the same time it seems like you're fighting the idea because it petrifies you that it might be true.I think IT personal in general probably don't have this issue - they are, in general, more self motivated, looking for new things to learn and dig into.
I think he's fighting it because it sounds crazy and unfounded. There is no logical basis for it and even a study would have to be incredibly complex to even suggest the correlation. You'd HAVE to have people retiring in their 30s, 40 and 50s and still dying crazy young to even suggest that that is what the data was showing.
I'll give you that this, if true, is only a problem for people in their 60's+. Not young people.
Right, which makes it not a retirement problem. People retiring when they do mostly because of health - they can't keep working easily. They retire BECAUSE they are dying. That your father is still working means that he will be even older when he retires, he will likely retire because he has to and will not live for a really long time after he does - adding to the statistic while actually having nothing to do with it.
I wonder how much of America can afford to retire - And these problems have nothing to do with the long term, normalized effects of your proposal - which I agree with you will ultimately be good for humanity.
If I recall correctly the average retirement savings in the US is just above $100,000. Something like $300 a month for the remainder of their life.
That's pretty hard to live on.
Yes... that is true. Although there is a lot of personal responsibility to be taken into account for this.
That's true, but only so true considering the state of poverty.... How much to you think a family of 4 with two working adults making minimum wage or barely over should be able to save for retirement?
Family of 4 making minimum wage? They can barely afford food, transportation, housing, and utilities. Minimum wage hasn't provided the ability to survive in a long time.
If we were like other countries and multiple generations of our families lived with us it would def be a lot more viable, but we expect people in their early 20's to be living on their own after college. A lot of my friends have good jobs and still live with their parents. I wish I could. I'd save for a house and be done with it.
Is this still true? Do other industrialized nations still have multiple generations under one roof?
My aunt Keiko said Japan is still like that. I'm sure the area matters though.
Europe is like that. Everywhere that I know of. Italy it is a major thing that girls don't want to date guys that live at home but guys are on average living at home until their mid to late 30s. So dating has dropped way off and the age disparity is growing.
That's a spicy meatball
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@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@wirestyle22 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Do you have any studies that point to this? Sorry but this just sounds made up. Yes there can be health related complications with depression and other mental disorders but simply retiring doesn't lead to depression.
I started this whole line of discussion stating that I had no actual knowledge of study data.
But at the same time it seems like you're fighting the idea because it petrifies you that it might be true.I think IT personal in general probably don't have this issue - they are, in general, more self motivated, looking for new things to learn and dig into.
I think he's fighting it because it sounds crazy and unfounded. There is no logical basis for it and even a study would have to be incredibly complex to even suggest the correlation. You'd HAVE to have people retiring in their 30s, 40 and 50s and still dying crazy young to even suggest that that is what the data was showing.
I'll give you that this, if true, is only a problem for people in their 60's+. Not young people.
Right, which makes it not a retirement problem. People retiring when they do mostly because of health - they can't keep working easily. They retire BECAUSE they are dying. That your father is still working means that he will be even older when he retires, he will likely retire because he has to and will not live for a really long time after he does - adding to the statistic while actually having nothing to do with it.
I wonder how much of America can afford to retire - And these problems have nothing to do with the long term, normalized effects of your proposal - which I agree with you will ultimately be good for humanity.
If I recall correctly the average retirement savings in the US is just above $100,000. Something like $300 a month for the remainder of their life.
That's pretty hard to live on.
Yes... that is true. Although there is a lot of personal responsibility to be taken into account for this.
That's true, but only so true considering the state of poverty.... How much to you think a family of 4 with two working adults making minimum wage or barely over should be able to save for retirement?
Family of 4 making minimum wage? They can barely afford food, transportation, housing, and utilities. Minimum wage hasn't provided the ability to survive in a long time.
If we were like other countries and multiple generations of our families lived with us it would def be a lot more viable, but we expect people in their early 20's to be living on their own after college. A lot of my friends have good jobs and still live with their parents. I wish I could. I'd save for a house and be done with it.
Is this still true? Do other industrialized nations still have multiple generations under one roof?
It is at least to a limited degree.
My UK friend has one adult child still living home.
A German friend shares a house (and family) with his mother. And another German friend, the family owns an apt building (small one) and they all live there.
Is that different in the US? Anecdotally I know many people may age, 20-30, that are still living with their parent's. This includes starting careers and families at their parent's home.
The scale is different. It's a new thing in the US that this generation isn't getting their own places at the same rate that we did. I moved out at 18, two weeks out of high school. Went back home for a few months two years later while pivoting from one state to another, but then moved to an apartment and never went back. It's still only just beginning to happen in the US, in most of the world it is just expected. I have had friends making $200K at 30 years old in London still living with their parents.
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A lot of folks see leaving home as a rite of passage. It's not one I see as necessary. I lived with my folks until I started my career at 24. If I didn't have a compelling reason to leave (my job was 4 hours away), I would have stayed with them.
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@wirestyle22 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@wirestyle22 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Do you have any studies that point to this? Sorry but this just sounds made up. Yes there can be health related complications with depression and other mental disorders but simply retiring doesn't lead to depression.
I started this whole line of discussion stating that I had no actual knowledge of study data.
But at the same time it seems like you're fighting the idea because it petrifies you that it might be true.I think IT personal in general probably don't have this issue - they are, in general, more self motivated, looking for new things to learn and dig into.
I think he's fighting it because it sounds crazy and unfounded. There is no logical basis for it and even a study would have to be incredibly complex to even suggest the correlation. You'd HAVE to have people retiring in their 30s, 40 and 50s and still dying crazy young to even suggest that that is what the data was showing.
I'll give you that this, if true, is only a problem for people in their 60's+. Not young people.
Right, which makes it not a retirement problem. People retiring when they do mostly because of health - they can't keep working easily. They retire BECAUSE they are dying. That your father is still working means that he will be even older when he retires, he will likely retire because he has to and will not live for a really long time after he does - adding to the statistic while actually having nothing to do with it.
I wonder how much of America can afford to retire - And these problems have nothing to do with the long term, normalized effects of your proposal - which I agree with you will ultimately be good for humanity.
If I recall correctly the average retirement savings in the US is just above $100,000. Something like $300 a month for the remainder of their life.
That's pretty hard to live on.
Yes... that is true. Although there is a lot of personal responsibility to be taken into account for this.
That's true, but only so true considering the state of poverty.... How much to you think a family of 4 with two working adults making minimum wage or barely over should be able to save for retirement?
Family of 4 making minimum wage? They can barely afford food, transportation, housing, and utilities. Minimum wage hasn't provided the ability to survive in a long time.
If we were like other countries and multiple generations of our families lived with us it would def be a lot more viable, but we expect people in their early 20's to be living on their own after college. A lot of my friends have good jobs and still live with their parents. I wish I could. I'd save for a house and be done with it.
Is this still true? Do other industrialized nations still have multiple generations under one roof?
It is at least to a limited degree.
My UK friend has one adult child still living home.
A German friend shares a house (and family) with his mother. And another German friend, the family owns an apt building (small one) and they all live there.
Is that different in the US? Anecdotally I know many people may age, 20-30, that are still living with their parent's. This includes starting careers and families at their parent's home.
I mean culturally where people live together their entire lives
No, almost nowhere does that. But kids stay at home till 30-35 often. And then parents move in either when the babies come or at retirement. So not their whole lives, normally, but huge portions of them. And often it switches as to who lives with whom.
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My aunt from Ohio lived with my grandmother until she was 40. The grandma, being older and alone, moved in with my aunt maybe ten or fifteen years later. There was a time that they lived a few towns apart, but they lived together all but that short span. But they flipped whose house it was.
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@dafyre said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
I started out, very first job I had that offered 401k, I paid into it, and rolled it into the next job. I had to cash it out when I started this job, but that's not so bad. If I get my 20 years in here, I'll get my salary for life.
Yup, had I stayed doing things like making pizzas, cashiering or doing the front desk at a hotel I would have been able to retire on my 401K.
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@wirestyle22 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@wirestyle22 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@wirestyle22 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Do you have any studies that point to this? Sorry but this just sounds made up. Yes there can be health related complications with depression and other mental disorders but simply retiring doesn't lead to depression.
I started this whole line of discussion stating that I had no actual knowledge of study data.
But at the same time it seems like you're fighting the idea because it petrifies you that it might be true.I think IT personal in general probably don't have this issue - they are, in general, more self motivated, looking for new things to learn and dig into.
I think he's fighting it because it sounds crazy and unfounded. There is no logical basis for it and even a study would have to be incredibly complex to even suggest the correlation. You'd HAVE to have people retiring in their 30s, 40 and 50s and still dying crazy young to even suggest that that is what the data was showing.
I'll give you that this, if true, is only a problem for people in their 60's+. Not young people.
Right, which makes it not a retirement problem. People retiring when they do mostly because of health - they can't keep working easily. They retire BECAUSE they are dying. That your father is still working means that he will be even older when he retires, he will likely retire because he has to and will not live for a really long time after he does - adding to the statistic while actually having nothing to do with it.
I wonder how much of America can afford to retire - And these problems have nothing to do with the long term, normalized effects of your proposal - which I agree with you will ultimately be good for humanity.
If I recall correctly the average retirement savings in the US is just above $100,000. Something like $300 a month for the remainder of their life.
That's pretty hard to live on.
Yes... that is true. Although there is a lot of personal responsibility to be taken into account for this.
That's true, but only so true considering the state of poverty.... How much to you think a family of 4 with two working adults making minimum wage or barely over should be able to save for retirement?
Family of 4 making minimum wage? They can barely afford food, transportation, housing, and utilities. Minimum wage hasn't provided the ability to survive in a long time.
If we were like other countries and multiple generations of our families lived with us it would def be a lot more viable, but we expect people in their early 20's to be living on their own after college. A lot of my friends have good jobs and still live with their parents. I wish I could. I'd save for a house and be done with it.
Is this still true? Do other industrialized nations still have multiple generations under one roof?
My aunt Keiko said Japan is still like that. I'm sure the area matters though.
Europe is like that. Everywhere that I know of. Italy it is a major thing that girls don't want to date guys that live at home but guys are on average living at home until their mid to late 30s. So dating has dropped way off and the age disparity is growing.
That's a spicy meatball
It's crippling the population as no one is having babies.
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@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
save and prepare. They can't save much, but they don't need as much at the end to maintain their lifestyle, either. Dual income
Apparently it amounts to 100K, or $300/m
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@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
The scale is different. It's a new thing in the US that this generation isn't getting their own places at the same rate that we did. I moved out at 18, two weeks out of high school. Went back home for a few months two years later while pivoting from one state to another, but then moved to an apartment and never went back.
I was similar - though I didn't move out until two weeks after my 19 birthday (age of majority in Nebraska), and I never went back. In the mean time, both of my brothers have lived with me for extended periods of time, so my mother, my wife's sister and one of her brothers. We've had more years of family living with us than not. We started dating Dec 26, 1994, we've had around 8 years with no live ins.
It's still only just beginning to happen in the US, in most of the world it is just expected. I have had friends making $200K at 30 years old in London still living with their parents.
That's just crazy!
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@wirestyle22 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@wirestyle22 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Do you have any studies that point to this? Sorry but this just sounds made up. Yes there can be health related complications with depression and other mental disorders but simply retiring doesn't lead to depression.
I started this whole line of discussion stating that I had no actual knowledge of study data.
But at the same time it seems like you're fighting the idea because it petrifies you that it might be true.I think IT personal in general probably don't have this issue - they are, in general, more self motivated, looking for new things to learn and dig into.
I think he's fighting it because it sounds crazy and unfounded. There is no logical basis for it and even a study would have to be incredibly complex to even suggest the correlation. You'd HAVE to have people retiring in their 30s, 40 and 50s and still dying crazy young to even suggest that that is what the data was showing.
I'll give you that this, if true, is only a problem for people in their 60's+. Not young people.
Right, which makes it not a retirement problem. People retiring when they do mostly because of health - they can't keep working easily. They retire BECAUSE they are dying. That your father is still working means that he will be even older when he retires, he will likely retire because he has to and will not live for a really long time after he does - adding to the statistic while actually having nothing to do with it.
I wonder how much of America can afford to retire - And these problems have nothing to do with the long term, normalized effects of your proposal - which I agree with you will ultimately be good for humanity.
If I recall correctly the average retirement savings in the US is just above $100,000. Something like $300 a month for the remainder of their life.
That's pretty hard to live on.
Yes... that is true. Although there is a lot of personal responsibility to be taken into account for this.
That's true, but only so true considering the state of poverty.... How much to you think a family of 4 with two working adults making minimum wage or barely over should be able to save for retirement?
Family of 4 making minimum wage? They can barely afford food, transportation, housing, and utilities. Minimum wage hasn't provided the ability to survive in a long time.
If we were like other countries and multiple generations of our families lived with us it would def be a lot more viable, but we expect people in their early 20's to be living on their own after college. A lot of my friends have good jobs and still live with their parents. I wish I could. I'd save for a house and be done with it.
Is this still true? Do other industrialized nations still have multiple generations under one roof?
It is at least to a limited degree.
My UK friend has one adult child still living home.
A German friend shares a house (and family) with his mother. And another German friend, the family owns an apt building (small one) and they all live there.
Is that different in the US? Anecdotally I know many people may age, 20-30, that are still living with their parent's. This includes starting careers and families at their parent's home.
I mean culturally where people live together their entire lives
That is not common in Japan. It used to be it is not now nor has it been for couple of decades
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@JaredBusch said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@wirestyle22 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@wirestyle22 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Do you have any studies that point to this? Sorry but this just sounds made up. Yes there can be health related complications with depression and other mental disorders but simply retiring doesn't lead to depression.
I started this whole line of discussion stating that I had no actual knowledge of study data.
But at the same time it seems like you're fighting the idea because it petrifies you that it might be true.I think IT personal in general probably don't have this issue - they are, in general, more self motivated, looking for new things to learn and dig into.
I think he's fighting it because it sounds crazy and unfounded. There is no logical basis for it and even a study would have to be incredibly complex to even suggest the correlation. You'd HAVE to have people retiring in their 30s, 40 and 50s and still dying crazy young to even suggest that that is what the data was showing.
I'll give you that this, if true, is only a problem for people in their 60's+. Not young people.
Right, which makes it not a retirement problem. People retiring when they do mostly because of health - they can't keep working easily. They retire BECAUSE they are dying. That your father is still working means that he will be even older when he retires, he will likely retire because he has to and will not live for a really long time after he does - adding to the statistic while actually having nothing to do with it.
I wonder how much of America can afford to retire - And these problems have nothing to do with the long term, normalized effects of your proposal - which I agree with you will ultimately be good for humanity.
If I recall correctly the average retirement savings in the US is just above $100,000. Something like $300 a month for the remainder of their life.
That's pretty hard to live on.
Yes... that is true. Although there is a lot of personal responsibility to be taken into account for this.
That's true, but only so true considering the state of poverty.... How much to you think a family of 4 with two working adults making minimum wage or barely over should be able to save for retirement?
Family of 4 making minimum wage? They can barely afford food, transportation, housing, and utilities. Minimum wage hasn't provided the ability to survive in a long time.
If we were like other countries and multiple generations of our families lived with us it would def be a lot more viable, but we expect people in their early 20's to be living on their own after college. A lot of my friends have good jobs and still live with their parents. I wish I could. I'd save for a house and be done with it.
Is this still true? Do other industrialized nations still have multiple generations under one roof?
It is at least to a limited degree.
My UK friend has one adult child still living home.
A German friend shares a house (and family) with his mother. And another German friend, the family owns an apt building (small one) and they all live there.
Is that different in the US? Anecdotally I know many people may age, 20-30, that are still living with their parent's. This includes starting careers and families at their parent's home.
I mean culturally where people live together their entire lives
That is not common in Japan. It used to be it is not now nor has it been for couple of decades
They don't move out till later 20s though, right?
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@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@JaredBusch said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@wirestyle22 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@wirestyle22 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Do you have any studies that point to this? Sorry but this just sounds made up. Yes there can be health related complications with depression and other mental disorders but simply retiring doesn't lead to depression.
I started this whole line of discussion stating that I had no actual knowledge of study data.
But at the same time it seems like you're fighting the idea because it petrifies you that it might be true.I think IT personal in general probably don't have this issue - they are, in general, more self motivated, looking for new things to learn and dig into.
I think he's fighting it because it sounds crazy and unfounded. There is no logical basis for it and even a study would have to be incredibly complex to even suggest the correlation. You'd HAVE to have people retiring in their 30s, 40 and 50s and still dying crazy young to even suggest that that is what the data was showing.
I'll give you that this, if true, is only a problem for people in their 60's+. Not young people.
Right, which makes it not a retirement problem. People retiring when they do mostly because of health - they can't keep working easily. They retire BECAUSE they are dying. That your father is still working means that he will be even older when he retires, he will likely retire because he has to and will not live for a really long time after he does - adding to the statistic while actually having nothing to do with it.
I wonder how much of America can afford to retire - And these problems have nothing to do with the long term, normalized effects of your proposal - which I agree with you will ultimately be good for humanity.
If I recall correctly the average retirement savings in the US is just above $100,000. Something like $300 a month for the remainder of their life.
That's pretty hard to live on.
Yes... that is true. Although there is a lot of personal responsibility to be taken into account for this.
That's true, but only so true considering the state of poverty.... How much to you think a family of 4 with two working adults making minimum wage or barely over should be able to save for retirement?
Family of 4 making minimum wage? They can barely afford food, transportation, housing, and utilities. Minimum wage hasn't provided the ability to survive in a long time.
If we were like other countries and multiple generations of our families lived with us it would def be a lot more viable, but we expect people in their early 20's to be living on their own after college. A lot of my friends have good jobs and still live with their parents. I wish I could. I'd save for a house and be done with it.
Is this still true? Do other industrialized nations still have multiple generations under one roof?
It is at least to a limited degree.
My UK friend has one adult child still living home.
A German friend shares a house (and family) with his mother. And another German friend, the family owns an apt building (small one) and they all live there.
Is that different in the US? Anecdotally I know many people may age, 20-30, that are still living with their parent's. This includes starting careers and families at their parent's home.
I mean culturally where people live together their entire lives
That is not common in Japan. It used to be it is not now nor has it been for couple of decades
They don't move out till later 20s though, right?
Yes. Also the oldest child will be responsible for taking care of the parents which may or may not include the parents moving back in with the child or the child moving back in with the parents once they reach him very much older age
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Well the Ubiquiti AP is up and running, and damn was that easy. It was more work to run the cable I needed than it was to setup the controller.
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@JaredBusch said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@JaredBusch said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@wirestyle22 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@wirestyle22 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Do you have any studies that point to this? Sorry but this just sounds made up. Yes there can be health related complications with depression and other mental disorders but simply retiring doesn't lead to depression.
I started this whole line of discussion stating that I had no actual knowledge of study data.
But at the same time it seems like you're fighting the idea because it petrifies you that it might be true.I think IT personal in general probably don't have this issue - they are, in general, more self motivated, looking for new things to learn and dig into.
I think he's fighting it because it sounds crazy and unfounded. There is no logical basis for it and even a study would have to be incredibly complex to even suggest the correlation. You'd HAVE to have people retiring in their 30s, 40 and 50s and still dying crazy young to even suggest that that is what the data was showing.
I'll give you that this, if true, is only a problem for people in their 60's+. Not young people.
Right, which makes it not a retirement problem. People retiring when they do mostly because of health - they can't keep working easily. They retire BECAUSE they are dying. That your father is still working means that he will be even older when he retires, he will likely retire because he has to and will not live for a really long time after he does - adding to the statistic while actually having nothing to do with it.
I wonder how much of America can afford to retire - And these problems have nothing to do with the long term, normalized effects of your proposal - which I agree with you will ultimately be good for humanity.
If I recall correctly the average retirement savings in the US is just above $100,000. Something like $300 a month for the remainder of their life.
That's pretty hard to live on.
Yes... that is true. Although there is a lot of personal responsibility to be taken into account for this.
That's true, but only so true considering the state of poverty.... How much to you think a family of 4 with two working adults making minimum wage or barely over should be able to save for retirement?
Family of 4 making minimum wage? They can barely afford food, transportation, housing, and utilities. Minimum wage hasn't provided the ability to survive in a long time.
If we were like other countries and multiple generations of our families lived with us it would def be a lot more viable, but we expect people in their early 20's to be living on their own after college. A lot of my friends have good jobs and still live with their parents. I wish I could. I'd save for a house and be done with it.
Is this still true? Do other industrialized nations still have multiple generations under one roof?
It is at least to a limited degree.
My UK friend has one adult child still living home.
A German friend shares a house (and family) with his mother. And another German friend, the family owns an apt building (small one) and they all live there.
Is that different in the US? Anecdotally I know many people may age, 20-30, that are still living with their parent's. This includes starting careers and families at their parent's home.
I mean culturally where people live together their entire lives
That is not common in Japan. It used to be it is not now nor has it been for couple of decades
They don't move out till later 20s though, right?
Yes. Also the oldest child will be responsible for taking care of the parents which may or may not include the parents moving back in with the child or the child moving back in with the parents once they reach him very much older age
Very Mediterranean style as well.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@JaredBusch said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@JaredBusch said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@wirestyle22 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@wirestyle22 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@coliver said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Instead of a wonderful world of not working and doing whatever you want. I'm reminded of two movies - Wall-e where all of the people became lazy fat people in their floaty chairs or the Matrix when Mr Smith was explaining to Neo that the first edition of the Matrix was a perfect world, but people's brains refused to accept it - they kept waking up.
Don't let pop culture determine your economics. And if anything, wouldn't the opposite happen? Work keeps us from exercising and learning. Do all retired people just stop existing? No, most do more than before they retired because now they can do things that they care about. And that's for people who are older. Imagine the same effect on younger people!
is that true? I hear - though I don't know the study based numbers - that the majority die within 5 years of retirement - mostly because of lack of motivation.
I'm not saying that this whole self worth through today's work isn't something we can't overcome, I'm just saying it will take a Long time.
Lack of motivation is a type of disease now? Didn't know that was a thing I assumed it was because American's are insanely unhealthy and tend to die sooner because of heart disease attributed to weight.
LOL - not a disease per se, but the feeling of worthlessness and boredom driving people to being lethargic which leads to all kinds of health problems including death.
Now Scott's proposal would possibly help with this. One of the big things I hear from retirees is that their family has no time for them. Their kids have their own lives - taking care of their children and they jobs. If you take the job out of the equation, then there will be more time to spend with the elderly as well as the young.
Do you have any studies that point to this? Sorry but this just sounds made up. Yes there can be health related complications with depression and other mental disorders but simply retiring doesn't lead to depression.
I started this whole line of discussion stating that I had no actual knowledge of study data.
But at the same time it seems like you're fighting the idea because it petrifies you that it might be true.I think IT personal in general probably don't have this issue - they are, in general, more self motivated, looking for new things to learn and dig into.
I think he's fighting it because it sounds crazy and unfounded. There is no logical basis for it and even a study would have to be incredibly complex to even suggest the correlation. You'd HAVE to have people retiring in their 30s, 40 and 50s and still dying crazy young to even suggest that that is what the data was showing.
I'll give you that this, if true, is only a problem for people in their 60's+. Not young people.
Right, which makes it not a retirement problem. People retiring when they do mostly because of health - they can't keep working easily. They retire BECAUSE they are dying. That your father is still working means that he will be even older when he retires, he will likely retire because he has to and will not live for a really long time after he does - adding to the statistic while actually having nothing to do with it.
I wonder how much of America can afford to retire - And these problems have nothing to do with the long term, normalized effects of your proposal - which I agree with you will ultimately be good for humanity.
If I recall correctly the average retirement savings in the US is just above $100,000. Something like $300 a month for the remainder of their life.
That's pretty hard to live on.
Yes... that is true. Although there is a lot of personal responsibility to be taken into account for this.
That's true, but only so true considering the state of poverty.... How much to you think a family of 4 with two working adults making minimum wage or barely over should be able to save for retirement?
Family of 4 making minimum wage? They can barely afford food, transportation, housing, and utilities. Minimum wage hasn't provided the ability to survive in a long time.
If we were like other countries and multiple generations of our families lived with us it would def be a lot more viable, but we expect people in their early 20's to be living on their own after college. A lot of my friends have good jobs and still live with their parents. I wish I could. I'd save for a house and be done with it.
Is this still true? Do other industrialized nations still have multiple generations under one roof?
It is at least to a limited degree.
My UK friend has one adult child still living home.
A German friend shares a house (and family) with his mother. And another German friend, the family owns an apt building (small one) and they all live there.
Is that different in the US? Anecdotally I know many people may age, 20-30, that are still living with their parent's. This includes starting careers and families at their parent's home.
I mean culturally where people live together their entire lives
That is not common in Japan. It used to be it is not now nor has it been for couple of decades
They don't move out till later 20s though, right?
Yes. Also the oldest child will be responsible for taking care of the parents which may or may not include the parents moving back in with the child or the child moving back in with the parents once they reach him very much older age
Very Mediterranean style as well.
The more rural, the more the old style persists. So if @wirestyle22's aunt is from the country that would seem more common.
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I'm seeing twenty somethings living at home far more today than when I was that age. I don't think that it was all that normal fifteen years ago. Not sure if it is normal now, but I'd say more normal, at least.
