Buying vs Saving Economic Theory
-
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@DustinB3403 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@DustinB3403 said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@Mike-Davis and what exactly is wrong with WEP?!
(sarcasm boys)
That's all that they have here on Sicily where we are
What? Over 95% of WLAN in Sicily is WPA2, from my experience.
You must have met some of the 5% outdated/misconfigured stuff.
New provider's WLAN setup for consumer are ALL WPA2 and they have been WPA2 for years. Every public structure have WPA2 for sure. Every public university in Italy is part of EduRoam, so is WPA2 enterprise with RADIUS.You don't deal with the tourism rental business much, I would guess.
Of course, they are fully on-the-cheap regarding IT :). Mosh is your friend!
Mosh?
This one. Best thing since sliced bread, as you Americans usually say!
I take offense to that statement....
EDIT
Ok, maybe I was rough, sorry.
You weren't. that IS an american saying. don't censor yourself because of some one else's insecurities.
-
@JaredBusch said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@DustinB3403 said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@DustinB3403 said in old MSP wants to know what they did wrong:
@Mike-Davis and what exactly is wrong with WEP?!
(sarcasm boys)
That's all that they have here on Sicily where we are
What? Over 95% of WLAN in Sicily is WPA2, from my experience.
You must have met some of the 5% outdated/misconfigured stuff.
New provider's WLAN setup for consumer are ALL WPA2 and they have been WPA2 for years. Every public structure have WPA2 for sure. Every public university in Italy is part of EduRoam, so is WPA2 enterprise with RADIUS.You don't deal with the tourism rental business much, I would guess.
Of course, they are fully on-the-cheap regarding IT :). Mosh is your friend!
Mosh?
This one. Best thing since sliced bread, as you Americans usually say!
I take offense to that statement....
EDIT
Ok, maybe I was rough, sorry.
You weren't. that IS an american saying. don't censor yourself because of some one else's insecurities.
god knows JB doesn't
-
@Francesco-Provino said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
I've edited my precedent comments, I apologize for any eventual offense.
Offend away, it's insults we won't like
-
-
The problem with the 2% working with 98% not theory is that it doesn't accommodate for the human desire for power. It would be an amazing situation to be in except for the fact that some people will not be content with what they receive and not interested in earning more. If everyone lived free from fear, then it will work, but very few people do, and that leads to seeking power to insulate from fear.
-
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
The problem with the 2% working with 98% not theory is that it doesn't accommodate for the human desire for power. It would be an amazing situation to be in except for the fact that some people will not be content with what they receive and not interested in earning more. If everyone lived free from fear, then it will work, but very few people do, and that leads to seeking power to insulate from fear.
That's true, except that nearly all of the 98% don't have power. The majority of people don't seek to be leaders and fewer still manage to be. Those getting power from work are the few, not the many. And many that do use it for evil, so curtailing that has a major positive benefit. Few people derive power from work, and given the protection of the system it removes much of the need for power.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
The problem with the 2% working with 98% not theory is that it doesn't accommodate for the human desire for power. It would be an amazing situation to be in except for the fact that some people will not be content with what they receive and not interested in earning more. If everyone lived free from fear, then it will work, but very few people do, and that leads to seeking power to insulate from fear.
That's true, except that nearly all of the 98% don't have power. The majority of people don't seek to be leaders and fewer still manage to be. Those getting power from work are the few, not the many. And many that do use it for evil, so curtailing that has a major positive benefit. Few people derive power from work, and given the protection of the system it removes much of the need for power.
I don't know that removing the economic factor affects the desire for power. I'm not addressing power via work, but desire for power over others in general. Gangs do not exist to commit crimes. They exist because of fear, and people control others or allow themselves to be controlled to mitigate fear. Economics play into it, but are not the primary motivator.
-
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
The problem with the 2% working with 98% not theory is that it doesn't accommodate for the human desire for power. It would be an amazing situation to be in except for the fact that some people will not be content with what they receive and not interested in earning more. If everyone lived free from fear, then it will work, but very few people do, and that leads to seeking power to insulate from fear.
That's true, except that nearly all of the 98% don't have power. The majority of people don't seek to be leaders and fewer still manage to be. Those getting power from work are the few, not the many. And many that do use it for evil, so curtailing that has a major positive benefit. Few people derive power from work, and given the protection of the system it removes much of the need for power.
I don't know that removing the economic factor affects the desire for power. I'm not addressing power via work, but desire for power over others in general. Gangs do not exist to commit crimes. They exist because of fear, and people control others or allow themselves to be controlled to mitigate fear. Economics play into it, but are not the primary motivator.
We may not remove the desire for power, but does it encourage it? Social structures will exist just the same. Power tiering will still be there just like before.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
The problem with the 2% working with 98% not theory is that it doesn't accommodate for the human desire for power. It would be an amazing situation to be in except for the fact that some people will not be content with what they receive and not interested in earning more. If everyone lived free from fear, then it will work, but very few people do, and that leads to seeking power to insulate from fear.
That's true, except that nearly all of the 98% don't have power. The majority of people don't seek to be leaders and fewer still manage to be. Those getting power from work are the few, not the many. And many that do use it for evil, so curtailing that has a major positive benefit. Few people derive power from work, and given the protection of the system it removes much of the need for power.
I don't know that removing the economic factor affects the desire for power. I'm not addressing power via work, but desire for power over others in general. Gangs do not exist to commit crimes. They exist because of fear, and people control others or allow themselves to be controlled to mitigate fear. Economics play into it, but are not the primary motivator.
We may not remove the desire for power, but does it encourage it? Social structures will exist just the same. Power tiering will still be there just like before.
That is my point. the 2/98 theory does not account for that, and is likely to breakdown like most social structures that ignore this aspect of humanity, a la Soviet Russia.
-
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
The problem with the 2% working with 98% not theory is that it doesn't accommodate for the human desire for power. It would be an amazing situation to be in except for the fact that some people will not be content with what they receive and not interested in earning more. If everyone lived free from fear, then it will work, but very few people do, and that leads to seeking power to insulate from fear.
That's true, except that nearly all of the 98% don't have power. The majority of people don't seek to be leaders and fewer still manage to be. Those getting power from work are the few, not the many. And many that do use it for evil, so curtailing that has a major positive benefit. Few people derive power from work, and given the protection of the system it removes much of the need for power.
I don't know that removing the economic factor affects the desire for power. I'm not addressing power via work, but desire for power over others in general. Gangs do not exist to commit crimes. They exist because of fear, and people control others or allow themselves to be controlled to mitigate fear. Economics play into it, but are not the primary motivator.
We may not remove the desire for power, but does it encourage it? Social structures will exist just the same. Power tiering will still be there just like before.
That is my point. the 2/98 theory does not account for that, and is likely to breakdown like most social structures that ignore this aspect of humanity, a la Soviet Russia.
My point was that the same power structures will be there that are there now, the issues you are concerned about exist today. This isn't an economic model designed to fix them, but it might help them. I don't see the reason to feel that it would hurt them. And remember that it's not like soviet Russia, it is not a planned economy. People are totally free to pursue ambitions, so all current outlets for power will still exist, none removed. So none of your concerns would apply like they would in polar opposite models. Soviet Russia provided everyone's jobs, 100% workers, it's the extreme opposite from an economic model.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
The problem with the 2% working with 98% not theory is that it doesn't accommodate for the human desire for power. It would be an amazing situation to be in except for the fact that some people will not be content with what they receive and not interested in earning more. If everyone lived free from fear, then it will work, but very few people do, and that leads to seeking power to insulate from fear.
That's true, except that nearly all of the 98% don't have power. The majority of people don't seek to be leaders and fewer still manage to be. Those getting power from work are the few, not the many. And many that do use it for evil, so curtailing that has a major positive benefit. Few people derive power from work, and given the protection of the system it removes much of the need for power.
I don't know that removing the economic factor affects the desire for power. I'm not addressing power via work, but desire for power over others in general. Gangs do not exist to commit crimes. They exist because of fear, and people control others or allow themselves to be controlled to mitigate fear. Economics play into it, but are not the primary motivator.
We may not remove the desire for power, but does it encourage it? Social structures will exist just the same. Power tiering will still be there just like before.
That is my point. the 2/98 theory does not account for that, and is likely to breakdown like most social structures that ignore this aspect of humanity, a la Soviet Russia.
My point was that the same power structures will be there that are there now, the issues you are concerned about exist today. This isn't an economic model designed to fix them, but it might help them. I don't see the reason to feel that it would hurt them. And remember that it's not like soviet Russia, it is not a planned economy. People are totally free to pursue ambitions, so all current outlets for power will still exist, none removed. So none of your concerns would apply like they would in polar opposite models. Soviet Russia provided everyone's jobs, 100% workers, it's the extreme opposite from an economic model.
I'm not equating economic models. I was comparing social structures that ignore fear and power as basic human motivations. The reason that properly checked capitalism has been so stable (in general) is that it accounts for these things. It assumes that everyone is fundamentally greedy and self-centered, and works accordingly. Every social or economic structure that ignores this aspect of the human experience has failed, sometimes spectacularly. And before there is any possibility of drawing this conclusion, we are not functioning in a truely capitalistic society in the US today, so I am not advocating that where we are today is a good place either socially or economically.
-
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
The problem with the 2% working with 98% not theory is that it doesn't accommodate for the human desire for power. It would be an amazing situation to be in except for the fact that some people will not be content with what they receive and not interested in earning more. If everyone lived free from fear, then it will work, but very few people do, and that leads to seeking power to insulate from fear.
That's true, except that nearly all of the 98% don't have power. The majority of people don't seek to be leaders and fewer still manage to be. Those getting power from work are the few, not the many. And many that do use it for evil, so curtailing that has a major positive benefit. Few people derive power from work, and given the protection of the system it removes much of the need for power.
I don't know that removing the economic factor affects the desire for power. I'm not addressing power via work, but desire for power over others in general. Gangs do not exist to commit crimes. They exist because of fear, and people control others or allow themselves to be controlled to mitigate fear. Economics play into it, but are not the primary motivator.
We may not remove the desire for power, but does it encourage it? Social structures will exist just the same. Power tiering will still be there just like before.
That is my point. the 2/98 theory does not account for that, and is likely to breakdown like most social structures that ignore this aspect of humanity, a la Soviet Russia.
My point was that the same power structures will be there that are there now, the issues you are concerned about exist today. This isn't an economic model designed to fix them, but it might help them. I don't see the reason to feel that it would hurt them. And remember that it's not like soviet Russia, it is not a planned economy. People are totally free to pursue ambitions, so all current outlets for power will still exist, none removed. So none of your concerns would apply like they would in polar opposite models. Soviet Russia provided everyone's jobs, 100% workers, it's the extreme opposite from an economic model.
I'm not equating economic models. I was comparing social structures that ignore fear and power as basic human motivations. The reason that properly checked capitalism has been so stable (in general) is that it accounts for these things. It assumes that everyone is fundamentally greedy and self-centered, and works accordingly. Any social or economic structure that ignores this aspect of the human experience has failed, sometime spectacularly. And before there is any possibility of drawing this conclusion, we are not functioning in a truely capitalistic society in the US today, so I am not advocating that where we are today is a good place either socially or economically.
Question - Does greed still exist as a massive motivator when, with a good enough public handout, there is little want? Let me put this another way, if people in general are able to scratch just about any itch they have, is there any significant reduction in the issues you're worried about?
-
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
The problem with the 2% working with 98% not theory is that it doesn't accommodate for the human desire for power. It would be an amazing situation to be in except for the fact that some people will not be content with what they receive and not interested in earning more. If everyone lived free from fear, then it will work, but very few people do, and that leads to seeking power to insulate from fear.
That's true, except that nearly all of the 98% don't have power. The majority of people don't seek to be leaders and fewer still manage to be. Those getting power from work are the few, not the many. And many that do use it for evil, so curtailing that has a major positive benefit. Few people derive power from work, and given the protection of the system it removes much of the need for power.
I don't know that removing the economic factor affects the desire for power. I'm not addressing power via work, but desire for power over others in general. Gangs do not exist to commit crimes. They exist because of fear, and people control others or allow themselves to be controlled to mitigate fear. Economics play into it, but are not the primary motivator.
We may not remove the desire for power, but does it encourage it? Social structures will exist just the same. Power tiering will still be there just like before.
That is my point. the 2/98 theory does not account for that, and is likely to breakdown like most social structures that ignore this aspect of humanity, a la Soviet Russia.
My point was that the same power structures will be there that are there now, the issues you are concerned about exist today. This isn't an economic model designed to fix them, but it might help them. I don't see the reason to feel that it would hurt them. And remember that it's not like soviet Russia, it is not a planned economy. People are totally free to pursue ambitions, so all current outlets for power will still exist, none removed. So none of your concerns would apply like they would in polar opposite models. Soviet Russia provided everyone's jobs, 100% workers, it's the extreme opposite from an economic model.
I'm not equating economic models. I was comparing social structures that ignore fear and power as basic human motivations. The reason that properly checked capitalism has been so stable (in general) is that it accounts for these things. It assumes that everyone is fundamentally greedy and self-centered, and works accordingly. Any social or economic structure that ignores this aspect of the human experience has failed, sometime spectacularly. And before there is any possibility of drawing this conclusion, we are not functioning in a truely capitalistic society in the US today, so I am not advocating that where we are today is a good place either socially or economically.
Question - Does greed still exist as a massive motivator when, with a good enough public handout, there is little want? Let me put this another way, if people in general are able to scratch just about any itch they have, is there any significant reduction in the issues you're worried about?
We only have one real category that has this state currently. Do the hyper-rich, who want for nothing, cease to be greedy or stop wanting to exert power over others?
-
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
The problem with the 2% working with 98% not theory is that it doesn't accommodate for the human desire for power. It would be an amazing situation to be in except for the fact that some people will not be content with what they receive and not interested in earning more. If everyone lived free from fear, then it will work, but very few people do, and that leads to seeking power to insulate from fear.
That's true, except that nearly all of the 98% don't have power. The majority of people don't seek to be leaders and fewer still manage to be. Those getting power from work are the few, not the many. And many that do use it for evil, so curtailing that has a major positive benefit. Few people derive power from work, and given the protection of the system it removes much of the need for power.
I don't know that removing the economic factor affects the desire for power. I'm not addressing power via work, but desire for power over others in general. Gangs do not exist to commit crimes. They exist because of fear, and people control others or allow themselves to be controlled to mitigate fear. Economics play into it, but are not the primary motivator.
We may not remove the desire for power, but does it encourage it? Social structures will exist just the same. Power tiering will still be there just like before.
That is my point. the 2/98 theory does not account for that, and is likely to breakdown like most social structures that ignore this aspect of humanity, a la Soviet Russia.
My point was that the same power structures will be there that are there now, the issues you are concerned about exist today. This isn't an economic model designed to fix them, but it might help them. I don't see the reason to feel that it would hurt them. And remember that it's not like soviet Russia, it is not a planned economy. People are totally free to pursue ambitions, so all current outlets for power will still exist, none removed. So none of your concerns would apply like they would in polar opposite models. Soviet Russia provided everyone's jobs, 100% workers, it's the extreme opposite from an economic model.
I'm not equating economic models. I was comparing social structures that ignore fear and power as basic human motivations. The reason that properly checked capitalism has been so stable (in general) is that it accounts for these things. It assumes that everyone is fundamentally greedy and self-centered, and works accordingly. Any social or economic structure that ignores this aspect of the human experience has failed, sometime spectacularly. And before there is any possibility of drawing this conclusion, we are not functioning in a truely capitalistic society in the US today, so I am not advocating that where we are today is a good place either socially or economically.
Question - Does greed still exist as a massive motivator when, with a good enough public handout, there is little want? Let me put this another way, if people in general are able to scratch just about any itch they have, is there any significant reduction in the issues you're worried about?
We only have one real category that has this state currently. Do the hyper-rich, who want for nothing, cease to be greedy or stop wanting to exert power over others?
I can understand the power thing - it's the greed thing that I can't. Greed to me requires an illegal/immoral act, the simple desire to acquire more is not greed (to me). So someone like Warren Buffet doesn't appear to be greedy, he's just wildly successful, and that success has granted him the ability to gather insane amounts of wealth.
On the other hand, warlords gain their wealth (and typically power also) through illegal and immoral means. -
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
The problem with the 2% working with 98% not theory is that it doesn't accommodate for the human desire for power. It would be an amazing situation to be in except for the fact that some people will not be content with what they receive and not interested in earning more. If everyone lived free from fear, then it will work, but very few people do, and that leads to seeking power to insulate from fear.
That's true, except that nearly all of the 98% don't have power. The majority of people don't seek to be leaders and fewer still manage to be. Those getting power from work are the few, not the many. And many that do use it for evil, so curtailing that has a major positive benefit. Few people derive power from work, and given the protection of the system it removes much of the need for power.
I don't know that removing the economic factor affects the desire for power. I'm not addressing power via work, but desire for power over others in general. Gangs do not exist to commit crimes. They exist because of fear, and people control others or allow themselves to be controlled to mitigate fear. Economics play into it, but are not the primary motivator.
We may not remove the desire for power, but does it encourage it? Social structures will exist just the same. Power tiering will still be there just like before.
That is my point. the 2/98 theory does not account for that, and is likely to breakdown like most social structures that ignore this aspect of humanity, a la Soviet Russia.
My point was that the same power structures will be there that are there now, the issues you are concerned about exist today. This isn't an economic model designed to fix them, but it might help them. I don't see the reason to feel that it would hurt them. And remember that it's not like soviet Russia, it is not a planned economy. People are totally free to pursue ambitions, so all current outlets for power will still exist, none removed. So none of your concerns would apply like they would in polar opposite models. Soviet Russia provided everyone's jobs, 100% workers, it's the extreme opposite from an economic model.
I'm not equating economic models. I was comparing social structures that ignore fear and power as basic human motivations. The reason that properly checked capitalism has been so stable (in general) is that it accounts for these things. It assumes that everyone is fundamentally greedy and self-centered, and works accordingly. Any social or economic structure that ignores this aspect of the human experience has failed, sometime spectacularly. And before there is any possibility of drawing this conclusion, we are not functioning in a truely capitalistic society in the US today, so I am not advocating that where we are today is a good place either socially or economically.
Question - Does greed still exist as a massive motivator when, with a good enough public handout, there is little want? Let me put this another way, if people in general are able to scratch just about any itch they have, is there any significant reduction in the issues you're worried about?
HOw does that play in today? There is greed today, yet it doesn't entice many to do much. It's not a major motivator.
If we provide a baseline income, does it reduce greed? No, but it encourages the only moderately greedy to care less. But more importantly, does it increase greed? No.
-
But back to the power thing - interesting - I wonder how many people of the ultra rich really want power over other people? Or are simply viewed as such because of their position. That combined with the typical extreme outward self confidence easily makes these people appear to be power grubbing megalomaniacs.
-
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
The problem with the 2% working with 98% not theory is that it doesn't accommodate for the human desire for power. It would be an amazing situation to be in except for the fact that some people will not be content with what they receive and not interested in earning more. If everyone lived free from fear, then it will work, but very few people do, and that leads to seeking power to insulate from fear.
That's true, except that nearly all of the 98% don't have power. The majority of people don't seek to be leaders and fewer still manage to be. Those getting power from work are the few, not the many. And many that do use it for evil, so curtailing that has a major positive benefit. Few people derive power from work, and given the protection of the system it removes much of the need for power.
I don't know that removing the economic factor affects the desire for power. I'm not addressing power via work, but desire for power over others in general. Gangs do not exist to commit crimes. They exist because of fear, and people control others or allow themselves to be controlled to mitigate fear. Economics play into it, but are not the primary motivator.
We may not remove the desire for power, but does it encourage it? Social structures will exist just the same. Power tiering will still be there just like before.
That is my point. the 2/98 theory does not account for that, and is likely to breakdown like most social structures that ignore this aspect of humanity, a la Soviet Russia.
My point was that the same power structures will be there that are there now, the issues you are concerned about exist today. This isn't an economic model designed to fix them, but it might help them. I don't see the reason to feel that it would hurt them. And remember that it's not like soviet Russia, it is not a planned economy. People are totally free to pursue ambitions, so all current outlets for power will still exist, none removed. So none of your concerns would apply like they would in polar opposite models. Soviet Russia provided everyone's jobs, 100% workers, it's the extreme opposite from an economic model.
I'm not equating economic models. I was comparing social structures that ignore fear and power as basic human motivations. The reason that properly checked capitalism has been so stable (in general) is that it accounts for these things. It assumes that everyone is fundamentally greedy and self-centered, and works accordingly. Any social or economic structure that ignores this aspect of the human experience has failed, sometime spectacularly. And before there is any possibility of drawing this conclusion, we are not functioning in a truely capitalistic society in the US today, so I am not advocating that where we are today is a good place either socially or economically.
Question - Does greed still exist as a massive motivator when, with a good enough public handout, there is little want? Let me put this another way, if people in general are able to scratch just about any itch they have, is there any significant reduction in the issues you're worried about?
We only have one real category that has this state currently. Do the hyper-rich, who want for nothing, cease to be greedy or stop wanting to exert power over others?
Actually, on average, the ultra rich are the least greedy and do the least to attempt to exert power. A few ARE really powerful, of course, and greedy and we see them in the public eye all the time and this is misleading. But studies show that those that are most likely to vote and act greedy are the poor statistically, not the rich. The rich are the most likely to push for heavier taxes, more social programs and such. It is the poor that control the vote and generally stop them thinking that they will lose out, somehow.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
@Kelly said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
The problem with the 2% working with 98% not theory is that it doesn't accommodate for the human desire for power. It would be an amazing situation to be in except for the fact that some people will not be content with what they receive and not interested in earning more. If everyone lived free from fear, then it will work, but very few people do, and that leads to seeking power to insulate from fear.
That's true, except that nearly all of the 98% don't have power. The majority of people don't seek to be leaders and fewer still manage to be. Those getting power from work are the few, not the many. And many that do use it for evil, so curtailing that has a major positive benefit. Few people derive power from work, and given the protection of the system it removes much of the need for power.
I don't know that removing the economic factor affects the desire for power. I'm not addressing power via work, but desire for power over others in general. Gangs do not exist to commit crimes. They exist because of fear, and people control others or allow themselves to be controlled to mitigate fear. Economics play into it, but are not the primary motivator.
We may not remove the desire for power, but does it encourage it? Social structures will exist just the same. Power tiering will still be there just like before.
That is my point. the 2/98 theory does not account for that, and is likely to breakdown like most social structures that ignore this aspect of humanity, a la Soviet Russia.
My point was that the same power structures will be there that are there now, the issues you are concerned about exist today. This isn't an economic model designed to fix them, but it might help them. I don't see the reason to feel that it would hurt them. And remember that it's not like soviet Russia, it is not a planned economy. People are totally free to pursue ambitions, so all current outlets for power will still exist, none removed. So none of your concerns would apply like they would in polar opposite models. Soviet Russia provided everyone's jobs, 100% workers, it's the extreme opposite from an economic model.
I'm not equating economic models. I was comparing social structures that ignore fear and power as basic human motivations. The reason that properly checked capitalism has been so stable (in general) is that it accounts for these things. It assumes that everyone is fundamentally greedy and self-centered, and works accordingly. Any social or economic structure that ignores this aspect of the human experience has failed, sometime spectacularly. And before there is any possibility of drawing this conclusion, we are not functioning in a truely capitalistic society in the US today, so I am not advocating that where we are today is a good place either socially or economically.
Question - Does greed still exist as a massive motivator when, with a good enough public handout, there is little want? Let me put this another way, if people in general are able to scratch just about any itch they have, is there any significant reduction in the issues you're worried about?
HOw does that play in today? There is greed today, yet it doesn't entice many to do much. It's not a major motivator.
If we provide a baseline income, does it reduce greed? No, but it encourages the only moderately greedy to care less. But more importantly, does it increase greed? No.
This was my point.
-
@Dashrender said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
But back to the power thing - interesting - I wonder how many people of the ultra rich really want power over other people? Or are simply viewed as such because of their position. That combined with the typical extreme outward self confidence easily makes these people appear to be power grubbing megalomaniacs.
Look at Bill Gates as an anecdotal example. Insanely rich, super kind, uses his "power" for some of the greatest good ever done. Warren Buffet, similar. Are all the ultra rich like the top few, no. But statistically, they are pretty good.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Buying vs Saving Economic Theory:
Look at Bill Gates as an anecdotal example. Insanely rich, super kind, uses his "power" for some of the greatest good ever done
Never took you for a windows fan Scott
