I can't even
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@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
Do you consider an actively replicating VM "just a cold backup file" that is not considered by Microsoft to be an OSE that needs licensed?
At this point I do consider it a cold backup file. And therefore requires no more licensing than a backup does, i.e. no SA or other Windows Server Licensing. Now, once you turn it on, all bets are off. To turn it on, you need SA for DR benefits.
That's how I used to think of it too, even though it doesn't matter in my current environment.
But after reading all of the information out there from reputable sources saying otherwise, I started looking at it differently.
Mainly this part: "If you don't need any additional licensing for VM replication, then why is it part of a benefit of Software Assurance in any context?"... I can see having the ability to "run" the replica as part of it... and another being an OSE is an "Instance means an image of software that is created by executing the software’s setup or install procedure or by duplicating an existing Instance."
Microsoft's own documentation is full of contradiction and vagueness.
Right but by those definitions, any backup is an image of an instance.
Correct. All backups are images BUT images never need to be licensed just for being an image. Only when they turn from images into OSEs.
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@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
The replica is "jsut a cold file" and never, ever, ever under MS licensing does a file have a licensing requirement or even a hint thereof.
Then, why does Microsoft document that replication is not "cold", but that it is "warm"?
We never found where they said that. Where are you seeing this?
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@tim_g said in I can't even:
I'm trying to understand what MS DOES say in their licensing documents. Not what they don't say.
What I have seen so far is that an "Instance" can be a duplicate of an existing Instance, and that all instances are OSEs. Going by that, it appears that even cold backups must be licensed... which you're right, is just silly.
It's not a duplicate until it is running. MS assumes that everyone knows that it is not an OSE until it is running. So they think that they are telling you that cold backups and replicas don't need licensing.
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@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
Straight from the MS docs.
As MS makes clear, SA doesn't cover cold backups, but only cold backups that have additionally been set up for disaster recovery purposes only. They make it clear that standard replicas that are kept cold need no license.
My definition, industry definition, MS definition - all agree. I got it from this originally.
So a warm backup requires turning it on to receive backups of data from prod server. Then they list mirroring, replication, and log shipping.
But replication does not require turning the VM on, soooo.... replication is an exception to the turning on rule?
The thing is this... that document is from 2004 and is not in the context of Hyper-V or VM replication. But I don't see anything else to go by, because everything else is in the context of the Software Assurance "disaster recovery" benefit.
All we can do is is assume, because nothing is clear. Is VM replication considered a warm backup? Is it an OSE? Is it an OSE that needs licensed?
I'm right in the middle of it all. I honestly don't care, because I either replicate SA-binded VMs, or to a DC hypervisor... so I'm covered by licensing anyways. But in the weird cases where people aren't using appropriate licensing... who knows.
I can side with Scott easily, and i can also not side with Scott easily. It depends on how you view it all. Do you consider an actively replicating VM "just a cold backup file" that is not considered by Microsoft to be an OSE that needs licensed?
But we found a matching one from 2016 that states all the same stuff.
So...
Warm backups are those which are turned on periodically to receive backups of data from the production servers. For example, warm backups are used in mirroring, replication, and log-shipping scenarios.
It mentions replication specifically. But we all know VM replicas are never turned on perodically in order to be updated.
I really don't think this applies, after reading it a few more times.
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@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
@Tim_G 's argument is that regardless of tool it still requires a license.
Right, and Scott's argument earlier was that it was the Replication tool inside Hyper-V that was being licensed, but has since turned 180 and feels that as long as the copy/backup/replica isn't started, no license at all is required.
Huh? That's not how I read that side of the argument. I don't really want to go through the thread again though so I'll take your word for it. It's been an interesting conversation for sure. Amazing that the intentional licensing ambiguities can create two completely different ideas on this.
https://i.imgur.com/gi0hPcy.png
I'm not sure how else to read that. There there are around 50 more posts talking about this point, but I don't think anything definitive was provided.
Right, that you don't need licensing for backups is how I read that. That there has been little to no actual documentation on it leaves a lot to be desired though.
and scott is calling a replica the same as a backup, as long as you never turn it on.
It's not ME calling it that. It's what it IS. Veeam, Unitrends, StorageCraft, Microsoft, the industry... they all use replica as a type of backup mechanism.
No, it doesn't matter what it is. It matters what MS calls it, and MS, from what I've seen, make the terms mean something different...
Where Backup means cold storage or a cold replica... and Replicating VM to mean Warm backup. I can't remember where I've seen it anymore, but liek with clustering (warm copies/backups/replicas), they must be licensed.
But where are you seeing this? I've never seen MS do this, but have seen them agree with the industry.
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@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
Straight from the MS docs.
As MS makes clear, SA doesn't cover cold backups, but only cold backups that have additionally been set up for disaster recovery purposes only. They make it clear that standard replicas that are kept cold need no license.
My definition, industry definition, MS definition - all agree. I got it from this originally.
So a warm backup requires turning it on to receive backups of data from prod server. Then they list mirroring, replication, and log shipping.
But replication does not require turning the VM on, soooo.... replication is an exception to the turning on rule?
The thing is this... that document is from 2004 and is not in the context of Hyper-V or VM replication. But I don't see anything else to go by, because everything else is in the context of the Software Assurance "disaster recovery" benefit.
All we can do is is assume, because nothing is clear. Is VM replication considered a warm backup? Is it an OSE? Is it an OSE that needs licensed?
I'm right in the middle of it all. I honestly don't care, because I either replicate SA-binded VMs, or to a DC hypervisor... so I'm covered by licensing anyways. But in the weird cases where people aren't using appropriate licensing... who knows.
I can side with Scott easily, and i can also not side with Scott easily. It depends on how you view it all. Do you consider an actively replicating VM "just a cold backup file" that is not considered by Microsoft to be an OSE that needs licensed?
But we found a matching one from 2016 that states all the same stuff.
So...
Warm backups are those which are turned on periodically to receive backups of data from the production servers. For example, warm backups are used in mirroring, replication, and log-shipping scenarios.
It mentions replication specifically. But we all know VM replicas are never turned on perodically in order to be updated.
I really don't think this applies, after reading it a few more times.
Ok so then think about it like this.
Do you ever power on your Backed up VM's to update what is there? If not then you don't need to be licensed.
Period.
Unless you have some mechanism that requires the backup to be started to receive updates (literally you can access a console or would require user cals) then you don't need to be licensed.
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@bigbear said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller @Tim_G
Software Assurance Benefit Centers on “Cold” Server Backups for Disaster Recovery
Effective June 1, 2004, customers with Software Assurance for Microsoft server software, as well as related Client Access Licenses (CALs), will be eligible for complimentary “cold backup” server Licenses for the purpose of disaster recovery. A cold server is a server that is turned off until a disaster arises. No other processing or production is done on this server.To qualify for this Software Assurance benefit, the customer will need to have a Microsoft server License enrolled in active Software Assurance. The customer will also need to have all corresponding Client Access Licenses (CALs) (if required by the software) enrolled in Software Assurance. Use of the software under a complimentary disaster recovery license is subject to the use rights for that software and the following conditions:
download.microsoft.com/download/6/c/5/6c576c0c-f740-48e2-86e1.../dr_brief.doc
That's the one I used before. Cold For Disaster Recovery, which, as we know, means in MS terms that the cold is intended to turn hot automatically and at which time needs a license. It's specifically that they had to had "for disaster recovery" that shows us that 1) this document isn't about pure cold 2) doesn't apply to this conversation and 3) implies that no license existed or would be needed for cold that is just cold.
This is exactly what I mean. They are pretty clear that cold replicas are exactly what the entire industry says that they are and exactly as we are using them.
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@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
@Tim_G 's argument is that regardless of tool it still requires a license.
Right, and Scott's argument earlier was that it was the Replication tool inside Hyper-V that was being licensed, but has since turned 180 and feels that as long as the copy/backup/replica isn't started, no license at all is required.
Huh? That's not how I read that side of the argument. I don't really want to go through the thread again though so I'll take your word for it. It's been an interesting conversation for sure. Amazing that the intentional licensing ambiguities can create two completely different ideas on this.
https://i.imgur.com/gi0hPcy.png
I'm not sure how else to read that. There there are around 50 more posts talking about this point, but I don't think anything definitive was provided.
Right, that you don't need licensing for backups is how I read that. That there has been little to no actual documentation on it leaves a lot to be desired though.
and scott is calling a replica the same as a backup, as long as you never turn it on.
It's not ME calling it that. It's what it IS. Veeam, Unitrends, StorageCraft, Microsoft, the industry... they all use replica as a type of backup mechanism.
No, it doesn't matter what it is. It matters what MS calls it, and MS, from what I've seen, make the terms mean something different...
Where Backup means cold storage or a cold replica... and Replicating VM to mean Warm backup. I can't remember where I've seen it anymore, but liek with clustering (warm copies/backups/replicas), they must be licensed.
But where are you seeing this? I've never seen MS do this, but have seen them agree with the industry.
In my post above this, but it doesn't make any sense because an example doesn't define a definition, especially when the example given isn't in the correct context.
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@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
@Tim_G 's argument is that regardless of tool it still requires a license.
Right, and Scott's argument earlier was that it was the Replication tool inside Hyper-V that was being licensed, but has since turned 180 and feels that as long as the copy/backup/replica isn't started, no license at all is required.
Huh? That's not how I read that side of the argument. I don't really want to go through the thread again though so I'll take your word for it. It's been an interesting conversation for sure. Amazing that the intentional licensing ambiguities can create two completely different ideas on this.
https://i.imgur.com/gi0hPcy.png
I'm not sure how else to read that. There there are around 50 more posts talking about this point, but I don't think anything definitive was provided.
Right, that you don't need licensing for backups is how I read that. That there has been little to no actual documentation on it leaves a lot to be desired though.
and scott is calling a replica the same as a backup, as long as you never turn it on.
I think it comes down to the questions I asked here: https://mangolassi.it/post/361143
The only thing that matters is whether or not it's considered an OSE, which OSEs needing licensed is documented clearly all over the place on Microsoft documentation.
I agree. That would be the hinge. But a cold file is never an OSE. MS has never waivered on that.
Correct, I agree that cold files are never an OSE.
Which is just what makes sense. MS really isn't weird about their licensing. They do logical things 99% of the time.
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@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
@Tim_G 's argument is that regardless of tool it still requires a license.
Right, and Scott's argument earlier was that it was the Replication tool inside Hyper-V that was being licensed, but has since turned 180 and feels that as long as the copy/backup/replica isn't started, no license at all is required.
Huh? That's not how I read that side of the argument. I don't really want to go through the thread again though so I'll take your word for it. It's been an interesting conversation for sure. Amazing that the intentional licensing ambiguities can create two completely different ideas on this.
https://i.imgur.com/gi0hPcy.png
I'm not sure how else to read that. There there are around 50 more posts talking about this point, but I don't think anything definitive was provided.
Right, that you don't need licensing for backups is how I read that. That there has been little to no actual documentation on it leaves a lot to be desired though.
and scott is calling a replica the same as a backup, as long as you never turn it on.
I think it comes down to the questions I asked here: https://mangolassi.it/post/361143
The only thing that matters is whether or not it's considered an OSE, which OSEs needing licensed is documented clearly all over the place on Microsoft documentation.
If that's true, then every backup that can be instantly turn on is an OSE, and they all need to be licensed as well - and I just don't think that's right. i.e. unitrends appliances would need licenses.
Right, and not just for their own hardware, but licensed for any hardware that they COULD be restored to. Once you breach the "could be used" barrier, it's a slippery slope. Because what about hardware that's running, but not the restore target? What about cold hardware that could be plugged in. What about hardware you've not bought yet, but could? Where do you draw the line once it is about theoretical capability only?
That's a great point.
But when you "Replicate a VM" as in what MS referrs to by VM replication, you do have an intent of using that replica as a running machine, should the original server fail.
No, this is incorrect and I proved it beyond any possibility of contradiction. That's NOT a given or even assumed intent of a replica. You could be, but it cannot be assumed and is NOT the most likely case. It's a common case, but WAY under 50% of the time. Maybe 10%, but only maybe.
Nearly all replicas are NOT intended to be used that way.
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@tim_g said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
@Tim_G 's argument is that regardless of tool it still requires a license.
Right, and Scott's argument earlier was that it was the Replication tool inside Hyper-V that was being licensed, but has since turned 180 and feels that as long as the copy/backup/replica isn't started, no license at all is required.
Huh? That's not how I read that side of the argument. I don't really want to go through the thread again though so I'll take your word for it. It's been an interesting conversation for sure. Amazing that the intentional licensing ambiguities can create two completely different ideas on this.
https://i.imgur.com/gi0hPcy.png
I'm not sure how else to read that. There there are around 50 more posts talking about this point, but I don't think anything definitive was provided.
Right, that you don't need licensing for backups is how I read that. That there has been little to no actual documentation on it leaves a lot to be desired though.
and scott is calling a replica the same as a backup, as long as you never turn it on.
I think it comes down to the questions I asked here: https://mangolassi.it/post/361143
The only thing that matters is whether or not it's considered an OSE, which OSEs needing licensed is documented clearly all over the place on Microsoft documentation.
If that's true, then every backup that can be instantly turn on is an OSE, and they all need to be licensed as well - and I just don't think that's right. i.e. unitrends appliances would need licenses.
Right, and not just for their own hardware, but licensed for any hardware that they COULD be restored to. Once you breach the "could be used" barrier, it's a slippery slope. Because what about hardware that's running, but not the restore target? What about cold hardware that could be plugged in. What about hardware you've not bought yet, but could? Where do you draw the line once it is about theoretical capability only?
That's a great point.
But when you "Replicate a VM" as in what MS referrs to by VM replication, you do have an intent of using that replica as a running machine, should the original server fail.
I guess I answered my own point here... then in that case, you'd need a license either by SA disaster recovery benefit, or another license on the replica host.
MS doesn't use the term that way in teh docs we've seen. They always add "for DR" to clarify that only that one use case (not the common one) is covered.
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@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
@Tim_G 's argument is that regardless of tool it still requires a license.
Right, and Scott's argument earlier was that it was the Replication tool inside Hyper-V that was being licensed, but has since turned 180 and feels that as long as the copy/backup/replica isn't started, no license at all is required.
Huh? That's not how I read that side of the argument. I don't really want to go through the thread again though so I'll take your word for it. It's been an interesting conversation for sure. Amazing that the intentional licensing ambiguities can create two completely different ideas on this.
https://i.imgur.com/gi0hPcy.png
I'm not sure how else to read that. There there are around 50 more posts talking about this point, but I don't think anything definitive was provided.
Right, that you don't need licensing for backups is how I read that. That there has been little to no actual documentation on it leaves a lot to be desired though.
and scott is calling a replica the same as a backup, as long as you never turn it on.
I think it comes down to the questions I asked here: https://mangolassi.it/post/361143
The only thing that matters is whether or not it's considered an OSE, which OSEs needing licensed is documented clearly all over the place on Microsoft documentation.
If that's true, then every backup that can be instantly turn on is an OSE, and they all need to be licensed as well - and I just don't think that's right. i.e. unitrends appliances would need licenses.
Right, and not just for their own hardware, but licensed for any hardware that they COULD be restored to. Once you breach the "could be used" barrier, it's a slippery slope. Because what about hardware that's running, but not the restore target? What about cold hardware that could be plugged in. What about hardware you've not bought yet, but could? Where do you draw the line once it is about theoretical capability only?
That's a great point.
But when you "Replicate a VM" as in what MS referrs to by VM replication, you do have an intent of using that replica as a running machine, should the original server fail.
No, this is incorrect and I proved it beyond any possibility of contradiction. That's NOT a given or even assumed intent of a replica. You could be, but it cannot be assumed and is NOT the most likely case. It's a common case, but WAY under 50% of the time. Maybe 10%, but only maybe.
Nearly all replicas are NOT intended to be used that way.
Replica's are meant to be used should the hypervisor fail, not just the individual VM. In which case SA would cover you as you should've bought SA licenses. . .
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@tim_g said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
@Tim_G 's argument is that regardless of tool it still requires a license.
Right, and Scott's argument earlier was that it was the Replication tool inside Hyper-V that was being licensed, but has since turned 180 and feels that as long as the copy/backup/replica isn't started, no license at all is required.
Huh? That's not how I read that side of the argument. I don't really want to go through the thread again though so I'll take your word for it. It's been an interesting conversation for sure. Amazing that the intentional licensing ambiguities can create two completely different ideas on this.
https://i.imgur.com/gi0hPcy.png
I'm not sure how else to read that. There there are around 50 more posts talking about this point, but I don't think anything definitive was provided.
Right, that you don't need licensing for backups is how I read that. That there has been little to no actual documentation on it leaves a lot to be desired though.
and scott is calling a replica the same as a backup, as long as you never turn it on.
I think it comes down to the questions I asked here: https://mangolassi.it/post/361143
The only thing that matters is whether or not it's considered an OSE, which OSEs needing licensed is documented clearly all over the place on Microsoft documentation.
If that's true, then every backup that can be instantly turn on is an OSE, and they all need to be licensed as well - and I just don't think that's right. i.e. unitrends appliances would need licenses.
Right, and not just for their own hardware, but licensed for any hardware that they COULD be restored to. Once you breach the "could be used" barrier, it's a slippery slope. Because what about hardware that's running, but not the restore target? What about cold hardware that could be plugged in. What about hardware you've not bought yet, but could? Where do you draw the line once it is about theoretical capability only?
That's a great point.
But when you "Replicate a VM" as in what MS referrs to by VM replication, you do have an intent of using that replica as a running machine, should the original server fail.
I guess I answered my own point here... then in that case, you'd need a license either by SA disaster recovery benefit, or another license on the replica host.
But I think that's besides the point. Of course then in that case it would be an OSE for sure.
But this is about an OSE already on HOST1, adn the question of whether or not the VM on the replica server is considered a Warm Backup, which is by microsoft's definition, and in which case is an OSE that needs licensed.
If it is cold, it's cold. If it is warm, it's warm. If you have it cold but want to be able to go warm without intervention, you need to license it as warm. But if it is cold and you don't intend to go warm, you don't need a license as MS never makes a situation where you would.
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@bigbear said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@dbeato said in I can't even:
Can we create a post regarding the Microsoft Licensing to a Topic so we don't derail this whole thread more? Just a recommendation.
Not at this scale, no we can't.
Anyone see my link and excerpt above from Microsoft?
Yup, we had already used it earlier. It's teh cold means cold, that we keep referring to.
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@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
@Tim_G 's argument is that regardless of tool it still requires a license.
Right, and Scott's argument earlier was that it was the Replication tool inside Hyper-V that was being licensed, but has since turned 180 and feels that as long as the copy/backup/replica isn't started, no license at all is required.
Huh? That's not how I read that side of the argument. I don't really want to go through the thread again though so I'll take your word for it. It's been an interesting conversation for sure. Amazing that the intentional licensing ambiguities can create two completely different ideas on this.
https://i.imgur.com/gi0hPcy.png
I'm not sure how else to read that. There there are around 50 more posts talking about this point, but I don't think anything definitive was provided.
Right, that you don't need licensing for backups is how I read that. That there has been little to no actual documentation on it leaves a lot to be desired though.
and scott is calling a replica the same as a backup, as long as you never turn it on.
I think it comes down to the questions I asked here: https://mangolassi.it/post/361143
The only thing that matters is whether or not it's considered an OSE, which OSEs needing licensed is documented clearly all over the place on Microsoft documentation.
If that's true, then every backup that can be instantly turn on is an OSE, and they all need to be licensed as well - and I just don't think that's right. i.e. unitrends appliances would need licenses.
Right, and not just for their own hardware, but licensed for any hardware that they COULD be restored to. Once you breach the "could be used" barrier, it's a slippery slope. Because what about hardware that's running, but not the restore target? What about cold hardware that could be plugged in. What about hardware you've not bought yet, but could? Where do you draw the line once it is about theoretical capability only?
That's a great point.
But when you "Replicate a VM" as in what MS referrs to by VM replication, you do have an intent of using that replica as a running machine, should the original server fail.
No, this is incorrect and I proved it beyond any possibility of contradiction. That's NOT a given or even assumed intent of a replica. You could be, but it cannot be assumed and is NOT the most likely case. It's a common case, but WAY under 50% of the time. Maybe 10%, but only maybe.
Nearly all replicas are NOT intended to be used that way.
There is only one reason and one intention to enable Hyper-V Replication, whether through Hyper-V or Veeam Replication... do you know what that one reason is? It's not to have a backup... VM replication is NOT backup. If someone uses Hyper-V replication as backup, then that is the same thing as using RAID as backup.
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@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@wls-itguy said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
Straight from the MS docs.
As MS makes clear, SA doesn't cover cold backups, but only cold backups that have additionally been set up for disaster recovery purposes only. They make it clear that standard replicas that are kept cold need no license.
My definition, industry definition, MS definition - all agree. I got it from this originally.
So a warm backup requires turning it on to receive backups of data from prod server. Then they list mirroring, replication, and log shipping.
But replication does not require turning the VM on, soooo.... replication is an exception to the turning on rule?
So am I to understand that if I have VEEAM set up to replicate I need a license for both the Production and the replicated backup?
No, you never need a license for a replica, only for turning on a replica (which makes it a VM that happens to have been created via replication.)
But isn't that a WARM backup if Veeam is replicating a VM using Veeam Replication feature?
Only if it replicates AND turns it on. But Veeam replicates using other features, too, and definitely does not spin up by default.
Datto does replication too, but spinning up (going warm) is a checkbox taht if you skip, stays cold.
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@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@dbeato said in I can't even:
Can we create a post regarding the Microsoft Licensing to a Topic so we don't derail this whole thread more? Just a recommendation.
Not at this scale, no we can't.
I meant to have a discussion about this on another post, not create a licensing go-to how-to thing.
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@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
@Tim_G 's argument is that regardless of tool it still requires a license.
Right, and Scott's argument earlier was that it was the Replication tool inside Hyper-V that was being licensed, but has since turned 180 and feels that as long as the copy/backup/replica isn't started, no license at all is required.
Huh? That's not how I read that side of the argument. I don't really want to go through the thread again though so I'll take your word for it. It's been an interesting conversation for sure. Amazing that the intentional licensing ambiguities can create two completely different ideas on this.
https://i.imgur.com/gi0hPcy.png
I'm not sure how else to read that. There there are around 50 more posts talking about this point, but I don't think anything definitive was provided.
Right, that you don't need licensing for backups is how I read that. That there has been little to no actual documentation on it leaves a lot to be desired though.
and scott is calling a replica the same as a backup, as long as you never turn it on.
I think it comes down to the questions I asked here: https://mangolassi.it/post/361143
The only thing that matters is whether or not it's considered an OSE, which OSEs needing licensed is documented clearly all over the place on Microsoft documentation.
If that's true, then every backup that can be instantly turn on is an OSE, and they all need to be licensed as well - and I just don't think that's right. i.e. unitrends appliances would need licenses.
Right, and not just for their own hardware, but licensed for any hardware that they COULD be restored to. Once you breach the "could be used" barrier, it's a slippery slope. Because what about hardware that's running, but not the restore target? What about cold hardware that could be plugged in. What about hardware you've not bought yet, but could? Where do you draw the line once it is about theoretical capability only?
That's a great point.
But when you "Replicate a VM" as in what MS referrs to by VM replication, you do have an intent of using that replica as a running machine, should the original server fail.
I guess I answered my own point here... then in that case, you'd need a license either by SA disaster recovery benefit, or another license on the replica host.
But I think that's besides the point. Of course then in that case it would be an OSE for sure.
But this is about an OSE already on HOST1, adn the question of whether or not the VM on the replica server is considered a Warm Backup, which is by microsoft's definition, and in which case is an OSE that needs licensed.
If it is cold, it's cold. If it is warm, it's warm. If you have it cold but want to be able to go warm without intervention, you need to license it as warm. But if it is cold and you don't intend to go warm, you don't need a license as MS never makes a situation where you would.
A great example of this is with XO Continuous replication.
You never intend to use second hypervisor, unless your main hypervisor shits the bed. The goal is to have it for only DR purposes.
Not for everyday occurrences.
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@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
@Tim_G 's argument is that regardless of tool it still requires a license.
Right, and Scott's argument earlier was that it was the Replication tool inside Hyper-V that was being licensed, but has since turned 180 and feels that as long as the copy/backup/replica isn't started, no license at all is required.
Huh? That's not how I read that side of the argument. I don't really want to go through the thread again though so I'll take your word for it. It's been an interesting conversation for sure. Amazing that the intentional licensing ambiguities can create two completely different ideas on this.
https://i.imgur.com/gi0hPcy.png
I'm not sure how else to read that. There there are around 50 more posts talking about this point, but I don't think anything definitive was provided.
Right, that you don't need licensing for backups is how I read that. That there has been little to no actual documentation on it leaves a lot to be desired though.
and scott is calling a replica the same as a backup, as long as you never turn it on.
I think it comes down to the questions I asked here: https://mangolassi.it/post/361143
The only thing that matters is whether or not it's considered an OSE, which OSEs needing licensed is documented clearly all over the place on Microsoft documentation.
If that's true, then every backup that can be instantly turn on is an OSE, and they all need to be licensed as well - and I just don't think that's right. i.e. unitrends appliances would need licenses.
Right, and not just for their own hardware, but licensed for any hardware that they COULD be restored to. Once you breach the "could be used" barrier, it's a slippery slope. Because what about hardware that's running, but not the restore target? What about cold hardware that could be plugged in. What about hardware you've not bought yet, but could? Where do you draw the line once it is about theoretical capability only?
That's a great point.
But when you "Replicate a VM" as in what MS referrs to by VM replication, you do have an intent of using that replica as a running machine, should the original server fail.
No, this is incorrect and I proved it beyond any possibility of contradiction. That's NOT a given or even assumed intent of a replica. You could be, but it cannot be assumed and is NOT the most likely case. It's a common case, but WAY under 50% of the time. Maybe 10%, but only maybe.
Nearly all replicas are NOT intended to be used that way.
There is only one reason and one intention to enable Hyper-V Replication, whether through Hyper-V or Veeam Replication... do you know what that one reason is? It's not to have a backup... VM replication is NOT backup. If someone uses Hyper-V replication as backup, then that is the same thing as using RAID as backup.
See, this is where it is false. Totally false. There are very real world, very legit reasons to do this NOT to spin it up. And like I said earlier, I proved this to a point that it cannot be questioned because I DO THIS MYSELF and did so before this conversation.
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@dustinb3403 said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@scottalanmiller said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@dashrender said in I can't even:
@coliver said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@tim_g said in I can't even:
@jaredbusch said in I can't even:
@Tim_G everything you link is referring to Hyper-V replication. It is understood that using Hyper-V to replicate requires SA or full licensing on both servers.
What does it matter which program you use for VM replication? That doesn't change anything at all.
That's like saying you only need volume licensing to image desktops if you use WDS, and not if you use another OS imaging solution...
It absolutely does. We are talking about using a tool that requires a license to copy files versus a tool that does not require a license to copy files.
@Tim_G 's argument is that regardless of tool it still requires a license.
Right, and Scott's argument earlier was that it was the Replication tool inside Hyper-V that was being licensed, but has since turned 180 and feels that as long as the copy/backup/replica isn't started, no license at all is required.
Huh? That's not how I read that side of the argument. I don't really want to go through the thread again though so I'll take your word for it. It's been an interesting conversation for sure. Amazing that the intentional licensing ambiguities can create two completely different ideas on this.
https://i.imgur.com/gi0hPcy.png
I'm not sure how else to read that. There there are around 50 more posts talking about this point, but I don't think anything definitive was provided.
Right, that you don't need licensing for backups is how I read that. That there has been little to no actual documentation on it leaves a lot to be desired though.
and scott is calling a replica the same as a backup, as long as you never turn it on.
I think it comes down to the questions I asked here: https://mangolassi.it/post/361143
The only thing that matters is whether or not it's considered an OSE, which OSEs needing licensed is documented clearly all over the place on Microsoft documentation.
If that's true, then every backup that can be instantly turn on is an OSE, and they all need to be licensed as well - and I just don't think that's right. i.e. unitrends appliances would need licenses.
Right, and not just for their own hardware, but licensed for any hardware that they COULD be restored to. Once you breach the "could be used" barrier, it's a slippery slope. Because what about hardware that's running, but not the restore target? What about cold hardware that could be plugged in. What about hardware you've not bought yet, but could? Where do you draw the line once it is about theoretical capability only?
That's a great point.
But when you "Replicate a VM" as in what MS referrs to by VM replication, you do have an intent of using that replica as a running machine, should the original server fail.
I guess I answered my own point here... then in that case, you'd need a license either by SA disaster recovery benefit, or another license on the replica host.
But I think that's besides the point. Of course then in that case it would be an OSE for sure.
But this is about an OSE already on HOST1, adn the question of whether or not the VM on the replica server is considered a Warm Backup, which is by microsoft's definition, and in which case is an OSE that needs licensed.
If it is cold, it's cold. If it is warm, it's warm. If you have it cold but want to be able to go warm without intervention, you need to license it as warm. But if it is cold and you don't intend to go warm, you don't need a license as MS never makes a situation where you would.
A great example of this is with XO Continuous replication.
You never intend to use second hypervisor, unless your main hypervisor shits the bed. The goal is to have it for only DR purposes.
Not for everyday occurrences.
That's not quite the same, unless you disable HA.
