A Mandate to Be Cheap
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@Dashrender said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
If I took a pole of staff
Grammar Nazi incoming...
I pictured a bunch of your staff members like this:
https://bigstickcombat.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/polejmp.jpg
Perhaps you meant "Poll"
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@pchiodo said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@Dashrender said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
If I took a pole of staff
Grammar Nazi incoming...
I pictured a bunch of your staff members like this:
Perhaps you meant "Poll"
ug, yeah.. thanks.
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@pchiodo said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@Dashrender said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
If I took a pole of staff
Grammar Nazi incoming...
I pictured a bunch of your staff members like this:
https://bigstickcombat.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/polejmp.jpg
Perhaps you meant "Poll"
Except that is not a pole in the picture... it is a staff.
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@Dashrender said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@scottalanmiller said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@Dashrender said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@scottalanmiller said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@Dashrender That was very possibly a case where he failed to convey who was the IT Manager and got burned for it. Someone felt that he was a decision maker when he was not and it spread. Once people start repeating that stuff, it becomes the accepted truth. It's so important to never let that happen.
I'm sure I am personally in that situation - If I took a pole of staff and management, who is the IT manager/decision maker, I bet most (meaning more than 80%) would say I am. This is simply not the case though. If I want to spend more than $1000 it has to be approved by either my boss (the CEO) or, and more likely, the BOD.
Approved to spend is not quite the same. That they probe your logic is not the same as them making the decision.
Gotta help me out with that one... tell me kemosabe.
Well, I've worked for places that do "probing" for pretty much everything. But it doesn't mean that they change your decision, demand another or inject their own. For example:
Bad Questioning
You: "Here are the three solutions that I suggest."
Them: "But Best Buy has cheaper gear and my friend from the bar told me to always use RAID 5, why aren't you doing the things that I think sound cool?"Good Probing
You: "Here are the three solutions that I suggest."
Them:- Give what you know of our needs, which of these do you truly recommend? What would you invest in with your own money?
- Did you consider support costs?
- Does this vendor have a good reputation that you feel comfortable with?
- Do we have any references about people using this product?
- Did you talk to finance and how the cost for this would play into our strategic financial picture? If so, what was the response?
- Do we have a trusted partner to deliver this?
- How comfortable are you personally with this solution?
- What previous industry knowledge did you use and how big is the cone of uncertainty around unknown solutions that you did not discover in this process?
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@art_of_shred said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
Perhaps you meant "Poll"
Except that is not a pole in the picture... it is a staff.
Staff on a pole.
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@scottalanmiller said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@Dashrender said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@scottalanmiller said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@Dashrender That was very possibly a case where he failed to convey who was the IT Manager and got burned for it. Someone felt that he was a decision maker when he was not and it spread. Once people start repeating that stuff, it becomes the accepted truth. It's so important to never let that happen.
I'm sure I am personally in that situation - If I took a pole of staff and management, who is the IT manager/decision maker, I bet most (meaning more than 80%) would say I am. This is simply not the case though. If I want to spend more than $1000 it has to be approved by either my boss (the CEO) or, and more likely, the BOD.
Approved to spend is not quite the same. That they probe your logic is not the same as them making the decision.
We have a general "budget" based primarily on a guess as too how much new stuff will cost at time of replacement, along with another guess as to the growth, topped off with a pretty good number on subscriptions, licensing, and maintenance.
We don't add in payroll, as this just skews numbers IMHO.
At the end of the day though, we always review the projects, the estimated costs, and then, of course, quote out the solution. Then we meet as a team, including ownership, and decide whether to proceed or not.
All of this is based on what is best for the company.
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@scottalanmiller said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@art_of_shred said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
Perhaps you meant "Poll"
Except that is not a pole in the picture... it is a staff.
Staff on a pole.
It was the best I could find on short notice.
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@scottalanmiller said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@art_of_shred said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
Perhaps you meant "Poll"
Except that is not a pole in the picture... it is a staff.
Staff on a pole.
No, it's more like staff on a staff. That's a Bo staff, not a pole.
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@art_of_shred said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@scottalanmiller said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@art_of_shred said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
Perhaps you meant "Poll"
Except that is not a pole in the picture... it is a staff.
Staff on a pole.
No, it's more like staff on a staff. That's a Bo staff, not a pole.
If they were strippers, that would be staff on a pole. @pchiodo ... go fish!
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@art_of_shred said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@art_of_shred said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@scottalanmiller said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@art_of_shred said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
Perhaps you meant "Poll"
Except that is not a pole in the picture... it is a staff.
Staff on a pole.
No, it's more like staff on a staff. That's a Bo staff, not a pole.
If they were strippers, that would be staff on a pole. @pchiodo ... go fish!
I left this thread a few hours ago to go to some meetings, and come back to find this thread 189 posts long, with strippers and poles in the last few posts. This site is amazing.
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@fuznutz04 said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@art_of_shred said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@art_of_shred said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@scottalanmiller said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@art_of_shred said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
Perhaps you meant "Poll"
Except that is not a pole in the picture... it is a staff.
Staff on a pole.
No, it's more like staff on a staff. That's a Bo staff, not a pole.
If they were strippers, that would be staff on a pole. @pchiodo ... go fish!
I left this thread a few hours ago to go to some meetings, and come back to find this thread 189 posts long, with strippers and poles in the last few posts. This site is amazing.
You and me both... and yes. Yes it is!
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@fuznutz04 said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@art_of_shred said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@art_of_shred said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@scottalanmiller said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@art_of_shred said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
Perhaps you meant "Poll"
Except that is not a pole in the picture... it is a staff.
Staff on a pole.
No, it's more like staff on a staff. That's a Bo staff, not a pole.
If they were strippers, that would be staff on a pole. @pchiodo ... go fish!
I left this thread a few hours ago to go to some meetings, and come back to find this thread 189 posts long, with strippers and poles in the last few posts. This site is amazing.
10/10 would post again.
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I'm still waiting for @pchiodo to come back with an appropriate (maybe not "appropriate") picture...
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@DustinB3403 said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@Dashrender said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@DustinB3403 said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@Dashrender said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@coliver said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@Dashrender said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@scottalanmiller said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@DustinB3403 said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
The term cheap to me (and I think others) means it needs to perform to the level that we can still run production (or whatever the use case is) and save more money than what we may have been proposed before.
That's an undefinable definition. Cheap but not the cheapest, good but not the best for us. So not the best option for the business, but not recklessly cheap. How do you make decisions around that? How do you decide what is "cheap enough" while being "not so bad" but not just choosing "what is best for the financial interest of the business?"
I'm seriously, without a clear definition but also without the goal of doing what is right for the business... what's the motivator for this? What makes something the lesser choice, but good enough?
Isn't part of being the best solution also having the lowest cost while still getting all of the needed items from that solution?
Right, but cheap denotes that you are making sacrifices that would stop you from getting the best solution for you business. At least to me it does.
So can it be cheaper and still solve the problem and not be the best?
Xen Orchestra from the sources is as cheap as it gets (because of the functionality of it). Meaning the XO Updater script, the capability to install it in a matter of minutes.
The fact that XO by it's self is disposable, and recreated in minutes.
Not that I don't love @olivier for the work he's created, but the source option is literally the best choice for this business.
is it? Could you spend the time you spend updating XO doing other things that are more valuable to the company? Maybe? Maybe not?
./xo-update.shIt's a 15 second command at most, that installs the most current updates. How much value can be squeezed out of 15 seconds?
It can even be scheduled via cron...
I feel I will "laugh" a bit when we'll migrate some data via the updater and a special script because we changed the data structure for a lot of technical reasons. Remember that doing that don't mean you have control. It could also break your install anytime due to npm.
A lot of customers don't want to take that risk. XOA price is not the software, it's the support.
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@olivier Hey that's why we have a beta system.
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@DustinB3403 said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@olivier Hey that's why we have a beta system.
So you have to maintain a beta system, find out when it breaks, migrate the data (if it happens) and check how to do that, and then update the production.
That's OK, but it starts to cost time...
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@olivier said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@DustinB3403 said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@Dashrender said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@DustinB3403 said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@Dashrender said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@coliver said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@Dashrender said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@scottalanmiller said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@DustinB3403 said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
The term cheap to me (and I think others) means it needs to perform to the level that we can still run production (or whatever the use case is) and save more money than what we may have been proposed before.
That's an undefinable definition. Cheap but not the cheapest, good but not the best for us. So not the best option for the business, but not recklessly cheap. How do you make decisions around that? How do you decide what is "cheap enough" while being "not so bad" but not just choosing "what is best for the financial interest of the business?"
I'm seriously, without a clear definition but also without the goal of doing what is right for the business... what's the motivator for this? What makes something the lesser choice, but good enough?
Isn't part of being the best solution also having the lowest cost while still getting all of the needed items from that solution?
Right, but cheap denotes that you are making sacrifices that would stop you from getting the best solution for you business. At least to me it does.
So can it be cheaper and still solve the problem and not be the best?
Xen Orchestra from the sources is as cheap as it gets (because of the functionality of it). Meaning the XO Updater script, the capability to install it in a matter of minutes.
The fact that XO by it's self is disposable, and recreated in minutes.
Not that I don't love @olivier for the work he's created, but the source option is literally the best choice for this business.
is it? Could you spend the time you spend updating XO doing other things that are more valuable to the company? Maybe? Maybe not?
./xo-update.shIt's a 15 second command at most, that installs the most current updates. How much value can be squeezed out of 15 seconds?
It can even be scheduled via cron...
I feel I will "laugh" a bit when we'll migrate some data via the updater and a special script because we changed the data structure for a lot of technical reasons. Remember that doing that don't mean you have control. It could also break your install anytime due to npm.
A lot of customers don't want to take that risk. XOA price is not the software, it's the support.
Absolutely, it's all about support. And it makes sense for most "greater than one" man shops. Or for those that are overworked or lack the skills to self maintain.
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@scottalanmiller said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@olivier said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@DustinB3403 said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@Dashrender said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@DustinB3403 said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@Dashrender said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@coliver said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@Dashrender said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@scottalanmiller said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@DustinB3403 said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
The term cheap to me (and I think others) means it needs to perform to the level that we can still run production (or whatever the use case is) and save more money than what we may have been proposed before.
That's an undefinable definition. Cheap but not the cheapest, good but not the best for us. So not the best option for the business, but not recklessly cheap. How do you make decisions around that? How do you decide what is "cheap enough" while being "not so bad" but not just choosing "what is best for the financial interest of the business?"
I'm seriously, without a clear definition but also without the goal of doing what is right for the business... what's the motivator for this? What makes something the lesser choice, but good enough?
Isn't part of being the best solution also having the lowest cost while still getting all of the needed items from that solution?
Right, but cheap denotes that you are making sacrifices that would stop you from getting the best solution for you business. At least to me it does.
So can it be cheaper and still solve the problem and not be the best?
Xen Orchestra from the sources is as cheap as it gets (because of the functionality of it). Meaning the XO Updater script, the capability to install it in a matter of minutes.
The fact that XO by it's self is disposable, and recreated in minutes.
Not that I don't love @olivier for the work he's created, but the source option is literally the best choice for this business.
is it? Could you spend the time you spend updating XO doing other things that are more valuable to the company? Maybe? Maybe not?
./xo-update.shIt's a 15 second command at most, that installs the most current updates. How much value can be squeezed out of 15 seconds?
It can even be scheduled via cron...
I feel I will "laugh" a bit when we'll migrate some data via the updater and a special script because we changed the data structure for a lot of technical reasons. Remember that doing that don't mean you have control. It could also break your install anytime due to npm.
A lot of customers don't want to take that risk. XOA price is not the software, it's the support.
Absolutely, it's all about support. And it makes sense for most "greater than one" man shops. Or for those that are overworked or lack the skills to self maintain.
Exactly!
edit: "overworked" is not the only reason. Responsibilities are another. A lot of companies won't buy a software if there is no one behind.
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Extra note: if a one man shop is using XO to make a living, that's business critical. And if you can't afford pro support for your core business, that's a risk.
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@olivier said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@scottalanmiller said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@olivier said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@DustinB3403 said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@Dashrender said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@DustinB3403 said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@Dashrender said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@coliver said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@Dashrender said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@scottalanmiller said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@DustinB3403 said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
The term cheap to me (and I think others) means it needs to perform to the level that we can still run production (or whatever the use case is) and save more money than what we may have been proposed before.
That's an undefinable definition. Cheap but not the cheapest, good but not the best for us. So not the best option for the business, but not recklessly cheap. How do you make decisions around that? How do you decide what is "cheap enough" while being "not so bad" but not just choosing "what is best for the financial interest of the business?"
I'm seriously, without a clear definition but also without the goal of doing what is right for the business... what's the motivator for this? What makes something the lesser choice, but good enough?
Isn't part of being the best solution also having the lowest cost while still getting all of the needed items from that solution?
Right, but cheap denotes that you are making sacrifices that would stop you from getting the best solution for you business. At least to me it does.
So can it be cheaper and still solve the problem and not be the best?
Xen Orchestra from the sources is as cheap as it gets (because of the functionality of it). Meaning the XO Updater script, the capability to install it in a matter of minutes.
The fact that XO by it's self is disposable, and recreated in minutes.
Not that I don't love @olivier for the work he's created, but the source option is literally the best choice for this business.
is it? Could you spend the time you spend updating XO doing other things that are more valuable to the company? Maybe? Maybe not?
./xo-update.shIt's a 15 second command at most, that installs the most current updates. How much value can be squeezed out of 15 seconds?
It can even be scheduled via cron...
I feel I will "laugh" a bit when we'll migrate some data via the updater and a special script because we changed the data structure for a lot of technical reasons. Remember that doing that don't mean you have control. It could also break your install anytime due to npm.
A lot of customers don't want to take that risk. XOA price is not the software, it's the support.
Absolutely, it's all about support. And it makes sense for most "greater than one" man shops. Or for those that are overworked or lack the skills to self maintain.
Exactly!
edit: "overworked" is not the only reason. Responsibilities are another. A lot of companies won't buy a software if there is no one behind.
Not in one man shops, though. The logic that they need support for their software normally carries over to IT and a single man can't reasonably support the internal IT in the same manner that they would want. So the two really don't go together.
