Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?
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@JaredBusch said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
And if the insinuation is that if a client says "I need a server" and some places sell them a $20K server when they need a $2K server ... well, I have never seen that, and I have never done that. Though, I guess I have seen it because a lot of times I'll come in to help when they've been oversold already. But I would not do that.
I have seen that more than one time, personally. Let alone seeing all the threads implying it on SW.
Yeah, I guess I am naive to think it doesn't happen. Just being here on ML (and of course SW) it seems to happen daily.
But, does that mean there cannot be a legitimate way?
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@JaredBusch said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Or is this really all about semantics?
In that what @guyinpv is describing is a VAR, and there is nothing wrong with that?
I mean, do people not think someone is making money on the hardware? DO people think it all gets passed on for free? Like it costs DELL $250 to make the server, and that is what the client will pay? I think everyone understands markup and its place in business.
That is his issue yes. He is calling it black and white VAR is bad because sales. None of us have ever said that.
Well, and also that is has to be disclosed.
Which I am not 100% on board with yet.
I mean, when you go to a store, do they have to disclose their profit to you? You shop around, and pick the best price.
Ultimately a client has to choose consultant + salesperson or a VAR, basically. The final price is what they should be looking at.
I think there is a bit of insinuation that a VAR cannot be trusted to make a fair recommendation, or that they only best way is for a consultant to recommend first. I just do not know if I believe that.
I think there are a lot of VARs out there that truly love and believe in the product(s) they sell. For example, maybe a specialized backup place that only sells one brand of backup appliance.
Is it possible the client could have saved money or gotten a better solution? Sure. Shoot we all argue daily about everything. That's IT. But is it also possible that the client really could get a great fit for them at a fair and honest price? I believe that.
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Consulting isn't something you should just give away. You have an investment in the knowledge you already possess. Access to that knowledge shouldn't generally be free.
If you are hired to do Consulting - design a plan or several for the business to choose from, the time spent doing those things should not be free.
But if some guy just walks in and says, hey build me a server and this is what I need it to do, well - in that case, like my friend above, you're now a VAR, weither you really sell anything or not. You're just going to put a solution together based on what he told you he wanted. You're not going to spend extra time making sure it's the right solution for him, why would you? there's no money in you doing that. Just spend as little time giving he what he wants.
Now this is where a sales person differs from an IT person. The sales person who sold my friend doesn't really know IT. He's just been told.. hey, if someone asks for VMWare, well then they also need a SAN. So my friend said he wanted virtualization and was sold a SAN at the same time.
So the question is who's to blame for this SAN being sold to my friend?
Now - you being an IT person, you know you don't need a SAN just because someone asked for one server to run one VM on, so you're solution would be a single server with local storage.
But just because you would do that doesn't mean the sales person was wrong to sell my friend that other solution - he sold what he knew.
Another example: Let's assume you know that RAID 5 is bad.
A customer comes to you and asks you to spec a system - you spec it out with RAID 10 SSD, because as I stated above, you know that RAID 5 is bad.Is this OK?
For a VAR, I say yes it is. Because you weren't paid to find the best solution, you were instead paid to use the knowledge you had to put something together with little to no additional research.
But, if they had paid you to consult on the best design for that system, it might have shows that since SSDs don't suffer the same problems as Winchester drives that you could have saved that customer a bundle by using RAID 5 instead of RAID 10.
And this is the risk that a customer takes every day when they don't pay for consulting when building out a project.
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@JaredBusch said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Or is this really all about semantics?
In that what @guyinpv is describing is a VAR, and there is nothing wrong with that?
I mean, do people not think someone is making money on the hardware? DO people think it all gets passed on for free? Like it costs DELL $250 to make the server, and that is what the client will pay? I think everyone understands markup and its place in business.
That is his issue yes. He is calling it black and white VAR is bad because sales. None of us have ever said that.
Well, and also that is has to be disclosed.
Which I am not 100% on board with yet.
I mean, when you go to a store, do they have to disclose their profit to you? You shop around, and pick the best price.
Ultimately a client has to choose consultant + salesperson or a VAR, basically. The final price is what they should be looking at.
I think there is a bit of insinuation that a VAR cannot be trusted to make a fair recommendation, or that they only best way is for a consultant to recommend first. I just do not know if I believe that.
I think there are a lot of VARs out there that truly love and believe in the product(s) they sell. For example, maybe a specialized backup place that only sells one brand of backup appliance.
Is it possible the client could have saved money or gotten a better solution? Sure. Shoot we all argue daily about everything. That's IT. But is it also possible that the client really could get a great fit for them at a fair and honest price? I believe that.
A fundamental part of consulting is being lost - when you CALL yourself a consultant - it's that you are being PAID to provide an unbiased opinion. When you walk into a best buy, you don't get an unbiased opinion, you don't get any opinion at all. You just see a price on the shelf. The kids who work there are definitely not experts at what they are selling, heck, they barely know more than the average consumer, if they even do. There advise is worthless, or at least only has value within the product lines of what they sell. But like the car sales person, assuming commissions, they want to sell you the highest commissions items in the place.
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@Dashrender said
Another example: Let's assume you know that RAID 5 is bad.
A customer comes to you and asks you to spec a system - you spec it out with RAID 10 SSD, because as I stated above, you know that RAID 5 is bad.Is this OK?
For a VAR, I say yes it is. Because you weren't paid to find the best solution, you were instead paid to use the knowledge you had to put something together with little to no additional research.
But, if they had paid you to consult on the best design for that system, it might have shows that since SSDs don't suffer the same problems as Winchester drives that you could have saved that customer a bundle by using RAID 5 instead of RAID 10.
And this is the risk that a customer takes every day when they don't pay for consulting when building out a project.
But why is it inconceivable that a VAR could also recommend the best solution?
In that situation, I'd recommend SSDs in a RAID5. Just like how I built my own systems. Why would I do anything I knew wasn't the best?
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I, personally, do not think I understand what a true consultant delivers. I mean, if I go and ask for a server, correct, how many different types of servers are there?
You do not hire a consultant if you know you need a server. you go to the vendor or VAR.
You go to a consultant to determine the best server for your needs.
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I think there is a bit of insinuation that a VAR cannot be trusted to make a fair recommendation, or that they only best way is for a consultant to recommend first. I just do not know if I believe that.
I think there are a lot of VARs out there that truly love and believe in the product(s) they sell. For example, maybe a specialized backup place that only sells one brand of backup appliance.
Is it possible the client could have saved money or gotten a better solution? Sure. Shoot we all argue daily about everything. That's IT. But is it also possible that the client really could get a great fit for them at a fair and honest price? I believe that.
No one ever said that a company can't get a great product at an honest price from a VAR - we've said it time and time again, VARs are not unethical. We say this because we know that VARs have one job - to sell you a product/service at the highest price they possibly can. And you as someone buying from a VAR should know that that is what a VARs job is. And as long as you know that, which granted is mostly on you, the buyer, to know. Not the VAR to expressly advertise.
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@Dashrender said
But like the car sales person, assuming commissions, they want to sell you the highest commissions items in the place.
OK, so let's take a specialized car salesman. My mom is disabled, so I have some experience with customized vans and whatnot. Now, these guys are still salesman, but I honestly believe most of them are in this line of work because they care, and are really looking to get the handicapped person the best possible vehicle for them.
So, this customized van salesman is ... a VAR?
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said
But like the car sales person, assuming commissions, they want to sell you the highest commissions items in the place.
OK, so let's take a specialized car salesman. My mom is disabled, so I have some experience with customized vans and whatnot. Now, these guys are still salesman, but I honestly believe most of them are in this line of work because they care, and are really looking to get the handicapped person the best possible vehicle for them.
So, this customized van salesman is ... a VAR?
I also have experience in this and I can tell you that most of these people are in it for their own employment and nothing else.
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@JaredBusch said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I, personally, do not think I understand what a true consultant delivers. I mean, if I go and ask for a server, correct, how many different types of servers are there?
You do not hire a consultant if you know you need a server. you go to the vendor or VAR.
You go to a consultant to determine the best server for your needs.
I'll expand upon that.
If you know exactly what you need in a server - then a VAR can help make sure you don't forget any parts that make it work.
But if you only know you have a problem, and aren't sure what server will solve that problem, you don't go ask a VAR, because a VAR will sell you the biggest baddest thing they can get away with. Now you personally might not do that, but just looking at SW and you will see that happens ALL the time!.
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said
But like the car sales person, assuming commissions, they want to sell you the highest commissions items in the place.
OK, so let's take a specialized car salesman. My mom is disabled, so I have some experience with customized vans and whatnot. Now, these guys are still salesman, but I honestly believe most of them are in this line of work because they care, and are really looking to get the handicapped person the best possible vehicle for them.
So, this customized van salesman is ... a VAR?
Yes, they are taking an existing product and adding either services or modifications to it? Then yes it is a VAR.
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
So, this customized van salesman is ... a VAR?
No, he is a salesperson.
His company is a VAR, but the person you are interfacing with is simply a salesperson.
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@JaredBusch said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
So, this customized van salesman is ... a VAR?
No, he is a salesperson.
His company is a VAR, but the person you are interfacing with is simply a salesperson.
This, I misunderstood. You're interfacing with a salesperson the company he is working with/for is a VAR.
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@JaredBusch said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I, personally, do not think I understand what a true consultant delivers. I mean, if I go and ask for a server, correct, how many different types of servers are there?
You do not hire a consultant if you know you need a server. you go to the vendor or VAR.
You go to a consultant to determine the best server for your needs.
But that is the point I think @guyinpv is trying to make.
His customers come to HIM and say "I want a server". They trust him to pick the best solution for them.
If it was ME, I'd ask a ton questions first ... do you really need a server? being the first.
For example (and keep in mind this is NOT my line of work, doing this sort of stuff) a non-profit comes to me recently, with 3 users, and really, really says they need a server. I immediately explain why they don't need one. And I've been arguing back and forth with them on it. They are adamant they need one.
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said
But like the car sales person, assuming commissions, they want to sell you the highest commissions items in the place.
OK, so let's take a specialized car salesman. My mom is disabled, so I have some experience with customized vans and whatnot. Now, these guys are still salesman, but I honestly believe most of them are in this line of work because they care, and are really looking to get the handicapped person the best possible vehicle for them.
So, this customized van salesman is ... a VAR?
yep - he's a VAR!
and while he puts on a great sales face making you believe that it's his life's work to get the best price vehicle for your mom, the reality is most of them are just there because it's a job. Don't forget.. that guy does not work for you... he works for the dealership.. his goal is to sell you the most money making thing he can.
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@JaredBusch said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I, personally, do not think I understand what a true consultant delivers. I mean, if I go and ask for a server, correct, how many different types of servers are there?
You do not hire a consultant if you know you need a server. you go to the vendor or VAR.
You go to a consultant to determine the best server for your needs.
But that is the point I think @guyinpv is trying to make.
His customers come to HIM and say "I want a server". They trust him to pick the best solution for them.
Right and that makes him a VAR which he continually and vehemently rejects.
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@JaredBusch said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said
But like the car sales person, assuming commissions, they want to sell you the highest commissions items in the place.
OK, so let's take a specialized car salesman. My mom is disabled, so I have some experience with customized vans and whatnot. Now, these guys are still salesman, but I honestly believe most of them are in this line of work because they care, and are really looking to get the handicapped person the best possible vehicle for them.
So, this customized van salesman is ... a VAR?
I also have experience in this and I can tell you that most of these people are in it for their own employment and nothing else.
I can honestly say I have only dealt with them at the perimeter, but they always seemed to care.
I'll believe your more hands on knowledge of this. (And sorry to hear that it was like that for you,)
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@JaredBusch said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I, personally, do not think I understand what a true consultant delivers. I mean, if I go and ask for a server, correct, how many different types of servers are there?
You do not hire a consultant if you know you need a server. you go to the vendor or VAR.
You go to a consultant to determine the best server for your needs.
But that is the point I think @guyinpv is trying to make.
His customers come to HIM and say "I want a server". They trust him to pick the best solution for them.
If it was ME, I'd ask a ton questions first ... do you really need a server? being the first.
For the love of god - WHY? why are you asking that? He told you he wanted a server, so sell him a server. He didn't come to you and say - hey, I have a problem and I think a server will solve it, but I want to make sure.. can you help me? he just asked for a server.
Why do his job for him for free?For example (and keep in mind this is NOT my line of work, doing this sort of stuff) a non-profit comes to me recently, with 3 users, and really, really says they need a server. I immediately explain why they don't need one. And I've been arguing back and forth with them on it. They are adamant they need one.
And have you seen a dime for that time you've spent? nope. but if you would have just sold them a server, you would have money in your pocket and maybe a support contact out of it.
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@Dashrender said
For the love of god - WHY? why are you asking that? He told you he wanted a server, so sell him a server. He didn't come to you and say - hey, I have a problem and I think a server will solve it, but I want to make sure.. can you help me? he just asked for a server.
Why do his job for him for free?Why? Because I care? And I want to provide good service?
And have you seen a dime for that time you've spent? nope. but if you would have just sold them a server, you would have money in your pocket and maybe a support contact out of it.
Well, we should be charging for putting together what they need. You are all correct in that.
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@JaredBusch said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@JaredBusch said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I, personally, do not think I understand what a true consultant delivers. I mean, if I go and ask for a server, correct, how many different types of servers are there?
You do not hire a consultant if you know you need a server. you go to the vendor or VAR.
You go to a consultant to determine the best server for your needs.
But that is the point I think @guyinpv is trying to make.
His customers come to HIM and say "I want a server". They trust him to pick the best solution for them.
Right and that makes him a VAR which he continually and vehemently rejects.
Right, and I don't understand why he doesn't want to be a VAR? There are tons of respectable VARs out there (granted there as many non respectable ones too)
For example: CDW is a great var if you KNOW you need a HP DL380 with XYZ drives.... and ABC RAID card. They, as a VAR should look over the specs you gave them and come back and say - oh yeah, you know, you need DEF cable to make that work right, want me to add it to the order? the value they bring in this case is that they know the parts that are needed to make it work considering the rest of the setup.
