Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
It's the assumption that something trivial like Amazon links changes one's entire business model and reason to exist from "helping the customer find the best solution" to "making the most money from my affiliates as possible and up-selling everything".
That isn't just a semantic, it's changing the entire business model.
Correct. The business model changes when you switch to accepting money against the interest of the customers paying you to not be unnaturally biased against them.
In the legal world, this is a black and white issue. It's not the gray area of semantics you are making it out to be. It's a clear ethical breach under the law and very, very well defined for industries where consumers are not as well prepared to differentiate between sales people and consultants. Businesses are left to their own devices, but their legal recourses remain.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
That isn't just a semantic,
I hate that term. Using "semantics" makes it sound like we are talking about meaningless words. We are not at all. We are talking about accuracy, honesty, ethics and business models. We are absolutely not talking about "getting the words to sound right." We are talking about "honestly representing the business model."
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I think that you answered the issue yourself, if you really step back and look at the thread. I had asked if you felt that your customers would feel that you acted unethically towards them if they found out. Do you feel that you can treat it as ethical in a case where you are hiding something that your customers would find (you think) is a breach of ethics if they had known the business model ahead of time?
Bottom line, that means that you are not providing to them what they think that they are paying you to do. I think that that is where the question of ethics ends. If you tell them up front, we know it is ethical. If you don't tell them up front, I think everyone involved from the customer to you knows, deep down, that it is not ethical. Not like murderous unethical, but not clear conscious ethical, for sure.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
These sorts of things are offensive to my work ethic. I can have an affiliate link at Amazon for recommending the odd $80 inkjet or whatever. The $1.18 I might make has little influence over me, and I wouldn't want to be called an "Amazon VAR" as if that is what I'm all about and ONLY about and my entire business and income depends on dollars and pennies from Amazon.
Scott's argument is, why have it at all then? My response is that I think of the $1.18 as free money. I'm sending the Amazon link anyway, $1.18 almost buys a coffee at the corner store.
Amazon does not manufacture printers. Sot than being an HP VAR who only sell printers.
I will warn you of this, Trying to make a $1.18 is seen as a slap in the face by most clients. This guy is selling me consulting services for $500 on a printer then he tries to make $1.18 out of me by sneaking it into an affiliate link? That would piss me off.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
It's a car salesmen JOB to earn commission, it's their bread and butter, it's what they DO.
Exactly, just like you. They are Chevy affiliates. They don't "have" to sell a car, but they only get paid when they do.
Wrong. It's NOT my "job" to sell affiliate things. It's my job to do what a client wants. Period.
If you cannot get past this concept, we're done. Affiliates links don't make me beholden to a company in the least, not whatsoever. Why in the living hell would I bend over backwards for the $20 affiliate and screw over the $500 from the client by giving them twisted advice?
My only goal is do good for the client. I want their business, I want their repeat business, I want their recommendations and word of mouth, I want their good testimonial, and I want my solutions to work over and above their expectations.I don't give a two-bit rats behind what an affiliate thinks about anything. So no, I don't work for them.
You keep suggesting that "making money" from a client is the exact same thing as "making money from affiliate" and therefore I have to be working for two people. Wrong again. Affiliates don't direct me, hire me, tell me what they want, have budget restrictions, goals about what it means for the job to be completed correctly. I don't consult them when someone hires me, I don't go download brochures about how best to up-sell them, they don't hold my hand in trying to convince customers to buy their stuff. They literally have zero to do with anything in my client relations.
They have zero say in the final analysis. I don't send them the estimates and invoices, they don't send me anything. If their product happens to be the right solution, then a bonus is there.
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I think that you answered the issue yourself, if you really step back and look at the thread. I had asked if you felt that your customers would feel that you acted unethically towards them if they found out. Do you feel that you can treat it as ethical in a case where you are hiding something that your customers would find (you think) is a breach of ethics if they had known the business model ahead of time?
Bottom line, that means that you are not providing to them what they think that they are paying you to do. I think that that is where the question of ethics ends. If you tell them up front, we know it is ethical. If you don't tell them up front, I think everyone involved from the customer to you knows, deep down, that it is not ethical. Not like murderous unethical, but not clear conscious ethical, for sure.
This conversation is partially about ethics but it's also about business models. Having an affiliate link to one product does NOT necessarily turn my entire business into the "THAT THING VAR COMPANY" where I go around trying to force everybody to use that product only because that tiny payout is just so alluring I can't help myself.
As mentioned earlier, people like me who are generalists kind of have to do everything. So for sure I don't call myself purely a consultant, nor purely a VAR. The very word "solutions" is in my company name in face. But AS a generalist, I do offer "consulting" as a line-item offering. Perhaps you would argue this is impossible??
What if, in the event I am hired as a consultant, I simply go into it with no thought of affiliates? In other words don't use them, if it's pure consulting they want? My suggestions can't be biased if I know there won't be bonuses.One thing I never thought to call myself is a reseller or VAR. In fact I don't think "resell" is the same as affiliate at all. I used to work for an IT shop who did reselling, they just quoted people products from Newegg with a 20% markup, kind of pathetic really.
If I truly wanted to be a VAR I would go all-in with any number of vendors with their maximum payout programs as well as become an expert on their stuff. -
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
It's a car salesmen JOB to earn commission, it's their bread and butter, it's what they DO.
Exactly, just like you. They are Chevy affiliates. They don't "have" to sell a car, but they only get paid when they do.
Wrong. It's NOT my "job" to sell affiliate things. It's my job to do what a client wants. Period.
If you cannot get past this concept, we're done. Affiliates links don't make me beholden to a company in the least, not whatsoever. Why in the living hell would I bend over backwards for the $20 affiliate and screw over the $500 from the client by giving them twisted advice?
My only goal is do good for the client. I want their business, I want their repeat business, I want their recommendations and word of mouth, I want their good testimonial, and I want my solutions to work over and above their expectations.Then do the even better thing - tell that customer - hey as an FYI, if you buy this chevy, chevy is sending me $20 - just an FYI. Why don't you want to do that?
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@IRJ said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
AH!! This summarizes the entire objection. You guys think the use of affiliates means a person is "chasing", perhaps obsessively, for pennies to screw over clients where the actual money is.
I've been fighting this whole time against this idea. The affiliate thing changes NOTHING. I and probably no one else whose though about this have any intention of screwing their clients and their "pounds$$" over pennies.
Your assumption is that this is exactly what we do. I don't know what else to say. The pennies are literally bonus money on the sidewalk. Just bend over. It's really not hard.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
It's a car salesmen JOB to earn commission, it's their bread and butter, it's what they DO.
Exactly, just like you. They are Chevy affiliates. They don't "have" to sell a car, but they only get paid when they do.
Wrong. It's NOT my "job" to sell affiliate things. It's my job to do what a client wants. Period.
If you cannot get past this concept, we're done. Affiliates links don't make me beholden to a company in the least, not whatsoever. Why in the living hell would I bend over backwards for the $20 affiliate and screw over the $500 from the client by giving them twisted advice?
My only goal is do good for the client. I want their business, I want their repeat business, I want their recommendations and word of mouth, I want their good testimonial, and I want my solutions to work over and above their expectations.Then do the even better thing - tell that customer - hey as an FYI, if you buy this chevy, chevy is sending me $20 - just an FYI. Why don't you want to do that?
You assume I don't?
I'm fighting the idea that BECAUSE Chevy has a $20 kickback, I'm therefore utterly blinded by, controlled by and mindlessly obsessed with promoting, pushing their vehicles ONLY above everything else. Chasing pennies, in other words. And further that I should literally change my entire business model to be the "Chevy VAR" company who comes to your business to push only Chevys.
It's fine if you want to have that view of human nature, I'm just saying it's not me.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
They have zero say in the final analysis. I don't send them the estimates and invoices, they don't send me anything. If their product happens to be the right solution, then a bonus is there.
Here's a question - Why do you deserve the bonus? You did a job, you were paid for that job - consulting fee. Why do you deserve a bonus for doing that job? Why doesn't the client deserve a discount instead?
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@IRJ said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
AH!! This summarizes the entire objection. You guys think the use of affiliates means a person is "chasing", perhaps obsessively, for pennies to screw over clients where the actual money is.
I've been fighting this whole time against this idea. The affiliate thing changes NOTHING. I and probably no one else whose though about this have any intention of screwing their clients and their "pounds$$" over pennies.
Your assumption is that this is exactly what we do. I don't know what else to say. The pennies are literally bonus money on the sidewalk. Just bend over. It's really not hard.
Do whatever you want. We all adults here, but making $20 on the side could ruin your whole business. I know what amazon affiliate links look like as many other people do and it could put your reputation at risk.
Here is an idea. If the $20 is that important to you then just add it on to the bill. No one will complain then.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
One thing I never thought to call myself is a reseller or VAR. In fact I don't think "resell" is the same as affiliate at all. I used to work for an IT shop who did reselling, they just quoted people products from Newegg with a 20% markup, kind of pathetic really.
Sadly this is way more common than you think. Some people just don't want to be bothered to look for things themselves. So if I have to do the looking for you, you bet your ass I'm going to make some money on that looking. What's worse in that situation is that they ONLY make money if there's a sale.
I had clients in the past that would ask me for quotes all the time. At first I would spend hours making quotes, mind you I was really gathering information from websites where they could buy from direct because i wasn't a reseller (No tax ID), I suppose I could have become an affiliate, but anyway - but they rarely ever bought it. Eventually I started billing them for making these quotes. Do you think at $100/hr they stopped asking for quote? nope - it was the most bizarre to me thing ever.. but hey.. whatever - you want to me to get pricing for you, fine.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@IRJ said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
AH!! This summarizes the entire objection. You guys think the use of affiliates means a person is "chasing", perhaps obsessively, for pennies to screw over clients where the actual money is.
I've been fighting this whole time against this idea. The affiliate thing changes NOTHING. I and probably no one else whose though about this have any intention of screwing their clients and their "pounds$$" over pennies.
Your assumption is that this is exactly what we do. I don't know what else to say. The pennies are literally bonus money on the sidewalk. Just bend over. It's really not hard.
While you might never succumb to this, most others have. Especially when they realize their is a ton more to be made by getting paid by the vendor instead of getting paid by the client.
Good Example of this - Angry Birds. When it was first released, the developers sold it on the iPhone for something like $1.99. This was good for the vendor and good for the customer. But along came Android, where the developers discovered they could make 10X that money, not only once, but continuously by giving the game away and putting ads in the game. Now at first this looks like a win for everyone, but of course we know it's not. Instead the customer is totally taking a loss here. They are now having data collected on them, their internet bandwidth is being used (something the customer pays for) and the consumer is being bothered by something they don't want and didn't ask for - an ad.
Given the choice I will always choose to pay for an app instead of having it ad supported - of course only assuming the ad crap/spying, etc is gone in the paid version.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
They have zero say in the final analysis. I don't send them the estimates and invoices, they don't send me anything. If their product happens to be the right solution, then a bonus is there.
Here's a question - Why do you deserve the bonus? You did a job, you were paid for that job - consulting fee. Why do you deserve a bonus for doing that job? Why doesn't the client deserve a discount instead?
Excellent question.
In previous jobs for some residential clients or non-profits I literally gave them extra discount for using the affiliates.
Don't misunderstand me, I literally have 3 affiliates to my name. Amazon, InMotion, and I think VULTR. I signed up BECAUSE I love them, not because of wanting the most kickbacks. I only think of it as free money. But obviously this raises a lot of ethical questions for people.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
It's a car salesmen JOB to earn commission, it's their bread and butter, it's what they DO.
Exactly, just like you. They are Chevy affiliates. They don't "have" to sell a car, but they only get paid when they do.
Wrong. It's NOT my "job" to sell affiliate things. It's my job to do what a client wants. Period.
If you cannot get past this concept, we're done. Affiliates links don't make me beholden to a company in the least, not whatsoever. Why in the living hell would I bend over backwards for the $20 affiliate and screw over the $500 from the client by giving them twisted advice?
My only goal is do good for the client. I want their business, I want their repeat business, I want their recommendations and word of mouth, I want their good testimonial, and I want my solutions to work over and above their expectations.Then do the even better thing - tell that customer - hey as an FYI, if you buy this chevy, chevy is sending me $20 - just an FYI. Why don't you want to do that?
You assume I don't?
I'm fighting the idea that BECAUSE Chevy has a $20 kickback, I'm therefore utterly blinded by, controlled by and mindlessly obsessed with promoting, pushing their vehicles ONLY above everything else. Chasing pennies, in other words. And further that I should literally change my entire business model to be the "Chevy VAR" company who comes to your business to push only Chevys.
It's fine if you want to have that view of human nature, I'm just saying it's not me.
But I don't know you - so why should I trust you? This is not a personal question to you specifically, it's a question I put out to anyone trying to sell me anything.
Remember - we are primarily talking about engagements where you are specifically PAID to give an opinion. In that situation, it is unethical to get a kickback for something you suggest.
If, some smoe on the street asks your opinion - there's no expectation of a payday for said advice - fine use the affiliate links. But then the question is.. would you give the non paying links vs the links in the case where you are not paid to give this advice - again, you personally might not, but human nature is what it is.. and if you can get $20 for some 'free advice" and the printers are nearly the same and hell, the customer won't care know in the end.. fine - that's what sales guys do every single day. and that's fine, that's what's expected of them.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
They have zero say in the final analysis. I don't send them the estimates and invoices, they don't send me anything. If their product happens to be the right solution, then a bonus is there.
Here's a question - Why do you deserve the bonus? You did a job, you were paid for that job - consulting fee. Why do you deserve a bonus for doing that job? Why doesn't the client deserve a discount instead?
Excellent question.
In previous jobs for some residential clients or non-profits I literally gave them extra discount for using the affiliates.
Don't misunderstand me, I literally have 3 affiliates to my name. Amazon, InMotion, and I think VULTR. I signed up BECAUSE I love them, not because of wanting the most kickbacks. I only think of it as free money. But obviously this raises a lot of ethical questions for people.
Again, this isn't about you - this is more - would some stranger think you're taking advantage of them... if they paid you $50 for an opinion, and if they buy a product on your opinion list you get affiliate kickback money - will they be OK with that? it's about what the other guy thinks.. not what you think.
Hell I think the "for Dummy's" series is a horrible name the first time I saw those I thought it would tank.. what the hell do I know? Look around today, there are dozens of 'for Dummy's' books, clearly other people thought the name was catchy, and it worked.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
They have zero say in the final analysis. I don't send them the estimates and invoices, they don't send me anything. If their product happens to be the right solution, then a bonus is there.
Here's a question - Why do you deserve the bonus? You did a job, you were paid for that job - consulting fee. Why do you deserve a bonus for doing that job? Why doesn't the client deserve a discount instead?
Excellent question.
In previous jobs for some residential clients or non-profits I literally gave them extra discount for using the affiliates.
Don't misunderstand me, I literally have 3 affiliates to my name. Amazon, InMotion, and I think VULTR. I signed up BECAUSE I love them, not because of wanting the most kickbacks. I only think of it as free money. But obviously this raises a lot of ethical questions for people.
Again, this isn't about you - this is more - would some stranger think you're taking advantage of them... if they paid you $50 for an opinion, and if they buy a product on your opinion list you get affiliate kickback money - will they be OK with that? it's about what the other guy thinks.. not what you think.
Hell I think the "for Dummy's" series is a horrible name the first time I saw those I thought it would tank.. what the hell do I know? Look around today, there are dozens of 'for Dummy's' books, clearly other people thought the name was catchy, and it worked.
If somebody says my service is $250, but if you buy from Amazon, I will only charge $235 sounds really sketchy to me.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
They have zero say in the final analysis. I don't send them the estimates and invoices, they don't send me anything. If their product happens to be the right solution, then a bonus is there.
Here's a question - Why do you deserve the bonus? You did a job, you were paid for that job - consulting fee. Why do you deserve a bonus for doing that job? Why doesn't the client deserve a discount instead?
Excellent question.
In previous jobs for some residential clients or non-profits I literally gave them extra discount for using the affiliates.
Don't misunderstand me, I literally have 3 affiliates to my name. Amazon, InMotion, and I think VULTR. I signed up BECAUSE I love them, not because of wanting the most kickbacks. I only think of it as free money. But obviously this raises a lot of ethical questions for people.
Again, this isn't about you - this is more - would some stranger think you're taking advantage of them... if they paid you $50 for an opinion, and if they buy a product on your opinion list you get affiliate kickback money - will they be OK with that? it's about what the other guy thinks.. not what you think.
Hell I think the "for Dummy's" series is a horrible name the first time I saw those I thought it would tank.. what the hell do I know? Look around today, there are dozens of 'for Dummy's' books, clearly other people thought the name was catchy, and it worked.
Considering almost the entire "free" internet works off the affiliate/ad model, people are more and more getting used to the idea that "if I give you this link, it's probably an affiliate". Everybody trying to make money online is hooked up to Amazon, Clickbank, Ratuken, et al.
Some people hold the absolute idea that affiliate means bias and scam. Advice cannot be pure, it cannot be unbiased or objective.
Some people have moved on and just find it part of normal life. Most people actually provide their advice and knowledge for free, so using affiliates for everything is their only form of payment.So is the horse before the cart? Or not? Are people corrupt and unavoidably biased when they use affiliates, or can be be pure and objective but still use the affiliate as a means of extra payment or bonus?
It is correct, we don't know each other, you don't really "know" the consultant you just hired. So do you ask them before any work is done, "if you are on commissions or use affiliates, I can't work with you?"
It's the same thing, you don't know them, so find out. Or DON'T find out, and put blind trust that they are objective.Scott suggested that there is a legal issue involved. If a client "finds out" they had purchased something which came from the consultant and happened to be affiliate, what law is being broken? The consultant didn't reveal it, but the client didn't ask.
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@IRJ said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
They have zero say in the final analysis. I don't send them the estimates and invoices, they don't send me anything. If their product happens to be the right solution, then a bonus is there.
Here's a question - Why do you deserve the bonus? You did a job, you were paid for that job - consulting fee. Why do you deserve a bonus for doing that job? Why doesn't the client deserve a discount instead?
Excellent question.
In previous jobs for some residential clients or non-profits I literally gave them extra discount for using the affiliates.
Don't misunderstand me, I literally have 3 affiliates to my name. Amazon, InMotion, and I think VULTR. I signed up BECAUSE I love them, not because of wanting the most kickbacks. I only think of it as free money. But obviously this raises a lot of ethical questions for people.
Again, this isn't about you - this is more - would some stranger think you're taking advantage of them... if they paid you $50 for an opinion, and if they buy a product on your opinion list you get affiliate kickback money - will they be OK with that? it's about what the other guy thinks.. not what you think.
Hell I think the "for Dummy's" series is a horrible name the first time I saw those I thought it would tank.. what the hell do I know? Look around today, there are dozens of 'for Dummy's' books, clearly other people thought the name was catchy, and it worked.
If somebody says my service is $250, but if you buy from Amazon, I will only charge $235 sounds really sketchy to me.
Haha yeah, but surprisingly, not for some people whose eyes glaze over at the thought of saving $15 bucks. Especially a non-profit. They still use Win XP on computers taken from Good Will.
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@Dashrender said
Then do the even better thing - tell that customer - hey as an FYI, if you buy this chevy, chevy is sending me $20 - just an FYI. Why don't you want to do that?
Because then the client would want that.
Is the argument here just to charge more up front for consulting, and ditch the reseller fees?
